So the past couple years I did a guide to the expansion released right before rotation, taking a good (sometimes) close look at the cards coming out. And while admittedly I screwed up with a few cards in Un'Goro, I'm hoping to remember the lessons I learned moving forward. (Even then my accuracy isn't all that bad, the majority of cards did end up not seeing play after all.)
Tier 1. Will See Play Cards that can make it into a meta-deck.
Paladin is a fast class, with small minions, which flood the whole board as long as no aoe spell comes around . In OTK you wanna save one or two horseriders. Rebuke can destroy a whole turn of spell hunter or exodia mage for 2 mana. I think it's better than Loatheb, cause paladin don't need a 5/5 Body and has 3 mana for drawing cards.
Wispering Woods is playable in a Big Druid with Sea Giant or in a token druid as well, which is still standard with penguin instead of patches.
Shaw is a very good card, without a deck currently. Warpath should be similar, IMO, the flexibility really helps it.
Hmm, I don't quite disagree with Shaw, but it's REALLY hard for me to imagine a Control Hunter he'd do a lot of good in. Control decks tend to prefer clearing with spells rather than minions, and rush doesn't do much good to more aggro decks. I think you're right though, and there may be a more control-midrange he could hypothetically exist in.
Warpath just doesn't do anything that Brawl and Blood Razor can't already do, and the higher cost to Warpath means you can't play it when you need it most. I'll think about moving it to Tier 2.5 though; it's (hypothetically) alright if you need a third/fourth AoE in the deck.
- Baku ↑ (T1) - I would easily place him in the tier 1 spot. I read what you said about Baku/Genn, but Control Warrior will certainly make the cut imho. One more removal/early game weapon and the deck is done.
- Face Collector ↓ (T2.5) - For me the legendary is really on the edge between being useful and hard to include. If we look at him, he is a 3 mana pseudo card draw and normally the legendaries have a high power level, so we get to "draw" good cards. But the question is - in what kind of a deck would we want to include him? I'm not pessimistic about his usefulness, but just really curious.
- Militia Commander ↓ (T3) - This card just looks to me like an arena one. I have never seen warrior include Charge, just because they wanted to trade off a minion from their hand into the opponent's board. It's true, that the warrior spell is bad on its own, but the Commander just doesn't feel like a constructed card. She doesn't enable late-game value, she doesn't clear a whole board and in aggro decks she is also weak, as she can't hit the face and she losses her attack.
- Genn Greymane ↑ (T2) - Meh, it all depends on how strong Genn Paladin will turn out to be. That deck has a lot of good even cost cards, so we will see.
- Rebuke ↑ (T1) - And I'm not overreacting. This card is just so good against everything spell based - AoEs, Heals, draws, minion summoning spells - cheap and you can include more of these in your deck as a reliable tech against control decks. Seriously, why are people underestimating it? You don't really care about having a 5/5 body - only in slower mid-range decks. But if you can make a threatening body on your own, then squeezing in a cheap spell will be super easy to fulfill.
- Glinda Crowskin ↑ (T2) or (T2.5), if you wish - Dunno mate, there is just a lot of combo potential for her. True, that we can only speculate on how powerful she can be, until we see the rest of the cards, but giving your minions echo is sometimes really powerful. For now I can think of Gnomeferatu (in standard). With more good cheap minions this can become attractive and she also has a nice stat distribution, making her more durable than offensive.
- Nightmare Amalgam ↑ (T2) - Dunno for Dragon Priest, but I would definitely put this in Elemental shaman. Also, if shaman gets more totem synergies, then this is also an attractive minion there. Shaman always needed early game minions - while this isn't insane, it's still a nice inclusion.
- Phantom Militia ↑ (T2.5) - Meh, I feel, that this isn't an extremely bad card as some other ones. Still hard to include, but not as bad as a 7 mana 3/3 replace your hand.
- Vivid Nightmare ↑ (T2.5) or (T2) - Combo potential. I'm also hardly seeing it in Priest atm, but there is a possibility for a deck with Radiant Elementals to show up. But until then, I wouldn't have anything against putting this in the tier 2.5 spot.
- Warpath ↑ (T2.5) or (T2) - This card just says to me "Warrior will get more enrage or hurt-minions synergies". I perfectly understand, that this is weaker than Defile, but warrior is the only class, which can make it better, if they get more good cards like Execute or a reprint of Sleep with the Fishes.
- Witchwood Apple ↑ (T2) ot (T2.5)- A card for token dudu imho (or a variation of that deck). While it looks bad that you don't get to summon them right away (<>Living Mana), this is a nice "draw", because you are getting a handful of minions in your hand. I kinda see this card as Drygulch Jailor - yes, the dudes are cheaper and paladin has more synergies with them, but dudu can also find good ways to utilize the bodies. It all depends whether it will get more board buffing spells. If not - then yeah - unplayable in standard, not to mention in wild too, because the decks there are already refined.
Inb4 Like in every other thread or post of mine, I will say, that we need to see the full card set from the Witchwood expansion, so that we can evaluate the cards better. I wouldn't mind to admit being wrong with my evaluations, but for now some of the cards seem to have potential to be played.
Azalina Soulthief ↑↑ (T2) - You can refill your hand in a pinch, or steal the enemy's win condition if you time it well.
Glinda Crowskin (Will see play in Wild, however.) ↑ (T2.5) If there is some high-attack, low-cost cards available, with proper refill of the hand, Rush might become the Hunter AOE.
Vivid Nightmare ↑ (T2.5) This card has more to it than it seems at first. Also very good in an odd-deck, where you can heal the minion for 4 instantly.
Azalina Soulthief I was a little iffy on, but overall I think it just comes out too late, and the cards you get can very easily be unhelpful (if they're aggro you won't get much, and if they're control you'll get a lot of destruction you can't really use).
Vivid Nightmare I REALLY flip-flopped on. It seemed like you might be able to pull it off in big priest, but ultimately I think it's too easy for it to be a dead card, and if you do get something big you're opponent can probably deal with the few health it'll have. There's deathrattles, but you can look at Mirage Caller and see how much play that had. I hadn't considered the odd-number deck thing, but I'm not sure that'll really be a thing for priest.
Phantom militia will at the very least see play in Quest warrior and Baku warrior for sure. These 2 decks might actually turn out to be the same deck.
I think I've read the devs saying that they want to pull quest warrior back in the meta. Not sure about that tho, but the phantom militia is kind of a proof of concept already.
Also, depending on what new echo cards are coming, phantom militia might turn out to be the best synergy card in the entire game with Hagatha. And I'm confident they made sure internally that Hagatha would see at least SOME play, somewhere.
So I'd put phantom militia into tier 1 category, but I guess it belongs to the optimistic tier guide.
Edit (more thoughts) :
Rebuke won't be dead against mirror, call to arms is a thing and even a turn 3 Rebuke might outright win you the game in the right circumstances.
Houndmaster shaw enables Midrange/Recruit Hunter so hard, I still fail to see why people keep saying things about control hunter memes when in fact this is a simple, strong tempo card that works perfectly with guild recruiter, Oakheart and Kathrena.
The problem is Phantom Militia is just so weak on its own. Like it does you no favors early, and late game I don't think any synergies make-up for spending so much mana on effectively so little stats. I'll admit I hadn't considered quest warrior, but I'm not sure it's issues right now are from taking too long to finish the quest and you'd rather run taunts to cover the weakness (though granted, some taunts are rotating out).
- Baku ↑ (T1) - I would easily place him in the tier 1 spot. I read what you said about Baku/Genn, but Control Warrior will certainly make the cut imho. One more removal/early game weapon and the deck is done.
- Face Collector ↓ (T2.5) - For me the legendary is really on the edge between being useful and hard to include. If we look at him, he is a 3 mana pseudo card draw and normally the legendaries have a high power level, so we get to "draw" good cards. But the question is - in what kind of a deck would we want to include him? I'm not pessimistic about his usefulness, but just really curious.
- Militia Commander ↓ (T3) - This card just looks to me like an arena one. I have never seen warrior include Charge, just because they wanted to trade off a minion from their hand into the opponent's board. It's true, that the warrior spell is bad on its own, but the Commander just doesn't feel like a constructed card. She doesn't enable late-game value, she doesn't clear a whole board and in aggro decks she is also weak, as she can't hit the face and she losses her attack.
- Genn Greymane ↑ (T2) - Meh, it all depends on how strong Genn Paladin will turn out to be. That deck has a lot of good even cost cards, so we will see.
- Rebuke ↑ (T1) - And I'm not overreacting. This card is just so good against everything spell based - AoEs, Heals, draws, minion summoning spells - cheap and you can include more of these in your deck as a reliable tech against control decks. Seriously, why are people underestimating it? You don't really care about having a 5/5 body - only in slower mid-range decks. But if you can make a threatening body on your own, then squeezing in a cheap spell will be super easy to fulfill.
- Glinda Crowskin ↑ (T2) or (T2.5), if you wish - Dunno mate, there is just a lot of combo potential for her. True, that we can only speculate on how powerful she can be, until we see the rest of the cards, but giving your minions echo is sometimes really powerful. For now I can think of Gnomeferatu (in standard). With more good cheap minions this can become attractive and she also has a nice stat distribution, making her more durable than offensive.
- Nightmare Amalgam ↑ (T2) - Dunno for Dragon Priest, but I would definitely put this in Elemental shaman. Also, if shaman gets more totem synergies, then this is also an attractive minion there. Shaman always needed early game minions - while this isn't insane, it's still a nice inclusion.
- Phantom Militia ↑ (T2.5) - Meh, I feel, that this isn't an extremely bad card as some other ones. Still hard to include, but not as bad as a 7 mana 3/3 replace your hand.
- Vivid Nightmare ↑ (T2.5) or (T2) - Combo potential. I'm also hardly seeing it in Priest atm, but there is a possibility for a deck with Radiant Elementals to show up. But until then, I wouldn't have anything against putting this in the tier 2.5 spot.
- Warpath ↑ (T2.5) or (T2) - This card just says to me "Warrior will get more enrage or hurt-minions synergies". I perfectly understand, that this is weaker than Defile, but warrior is the only class, which can make it better, if they get more good cards like Execute or a reprint of Sleep with the Fishes.
- Witchwood Apple ↑ (T2) ot (T2.5)- A card for token dudu imho (or a variation of that deck). While it looks bad that you don't get to summon them right away (<>Living Mana), this is a nice "draw", because you are getting a handful of minions in your hand. I kinda see this card as Drygulch Jailor - yes, the dudes are cheaper and paladin has more synergies with them, but dudu can also find good ways to utilize the bodies. It all depends whether it will get more board buffing spells. If not - then yeah - unplayable in standard, not to mention in wild too, because the decks there are already refined.
Inb4 Like in every other thread or post of mine, I will say, that we need to see the full card set from the Witchwood expansion, so that we can evaluate the cards better. I wouldn't mind to admit being wrong with my evaluations, but for now some of the cards seem to have potential to be played.
The real problem for Odd Warrior is the lack of Execute, especially in a Spiteful/Cubelock meta. If they get another hard removal (and ideally some better early game like you said) I don't mind moving it up, but I'm not sure the deck will make the cut otherwise.
I agree with you on Face Collector, tier 2 is mostly the "good card but without a deck" tier.
Militia Commander is effectively a 4-cost deal 5 damage card that leaves a ~2/2 body, which is hard to beat in value. If control warrior needed to deal with more mid-range threats I think Militia Commander would work very well, but it's mostly out of Tier 1 because l doubt that meta's really going to head in that direction.
The problem with Rebuke is it's hard to time (ideally you'd want to use it after Call to Arms, but the enemy will get a chance to play their AoE on turn 4/5). You don't really care about your opponent's card draw, it doesn't stop other counters to aggro like Duskbreaker and taunts, and in control it's a card that does absolutely nothing but delay your opponent (which might be enough, but it's a high risk when generally your goal is to out value them). It also might be a completely dead card. Loatheb's upside was if you "whiffed" it was fine, you still got a 5/5 body. Here you even lose 2 mana you might spend developing a big card.
Overall I do agree some of these cards might get better if they get more supporting cards. And honestly I don't mind moving them up tiers if they do. Though some require so many cards I think it'll be a few expansions before they have enough support - I can see one or two "when hurt" minions for Warpath, but that's not enough to build a deck around. Some Blizzard might also wait on to not just break the game like Glinda Crowskin, and some like Witchwood Apple I just don't think any amount of synergy will make worthwhile.
Updated the list before the big release tomorrow. Most of the cards ended up in Tier 3, though a few landed themselves in Tiers 2/2.5. I also subdivided Tier 2 a bit, so you can see my thoughts in where the card might end up (and we'll have to wait and see if those decks are trash or not).
Nightmare Amalgam: In itself its not a big deal, but dragon priests are in desperate need for an activator, and its OK to play a dragon spider tank in that deck. Tier 2.5.
Isn't dragon priest just dead after this rotation? They lose Drak Op, Netherspite, Dragon Fire potion, Bookwyrm... Priest will have basically no remaining dragon synergy in standard. The only card left is Duskbreaker, and I don't think that card can carry the archetype.
Isn't dragon priest just dead after this rotation? They lose Drak Op, Netherspite, Dragon Fire potion, Bookwyrm... Priest will have basically no remaining dragon synergy in standard. The only card left is Duskbreaker, and I don't think that card can carry the archetype.
Not as good - but still probably good enough because 1 active Duskbreaker and Spiteful can carry games. Also, the 10 drops for Spiteful are so much better now.
I agree with a lot. but also disagree with some. Alright, time for a wall of text.
Bogshaper: Even is Hagatha shaman becomes a thing, I wouldnt include this card in it. Too slow, hard to combo with, and payout is nothing special. Tier 3.
Black Cat, Gloomstag, Murkspark Eel: The whole even/odd mechanic will only work in a few classes. IMO mage, druid and shaman are not one of those classes. Tier 3.
Face Collector: It belongs to the same wild deck as the other rogue legendary. Tier 3.
Cursed Castaway: Just a fair card, nothing special. Tier 2.5 or Tier 3.
Azalina Soulthief: A neutral divine favor has too much potential to put it in the lowest tier. Tier 2.5.
Chameleos: If control priest will be a deck after rotation, this is an auto-include. I think the card is super good, but there might not be a deck for it in this expansion. Tier 2.
Dire Frenzy: Way too much combo potential. Tier 2.
Nightmare Amalgam: In itself its not a big deal, but dragon priests are in desperate need for an activator, and its OK to play a dragon spider tank in that deck. Tier 2.5.
Phantom Militia: The new best friend of the warrior quest. Tier 2.
Toxmonger: Im not sure if there will be a competitive deck for it, but it has potential. Tier 2.5.
Witching Hour: Its a way to cheat out big minions for cheap. There are a lot of theorycrafts about this card, like the Charged Devilsaur OTK or the Hadronox uber value deck. Tier 2.
Witchwood Piper: Excellent tutor card. Exodia mage and some of the new decks will love it. Tier 2.
Thats it for now, 4 more hours until the reveal stream, Im kinda hyped for it.
Bogshaper: Yeah, admittedly I had it in Tier 2.5, but moved up to group it with the Shaman cards. I think it has a little bit of potential but otherwise I don't really disagree.
As for the Even/Odd cards, I moved them up too for similar reasons. But while I agree with Druid/Shaman, I think Mage has some potential.
Face Collector I think has potential, it can be a decent amount of card draw of cards that trend later in the game. Tier 2 cards have ended up pretty powerful though; I might move it down.
Cursed Castaway and Toki, Time-Tinker: Well it's card draw. But okay yeah, pretty generically costed card draw. I'll move them down a tier.
Azalina Soulthief: Yeah, but it's quite late game Divine Favor, and you can't even empty your hand before you play it really. It also has Divine Favor's weakness against aggro. And against control, you could end up mostly with destruction, which doesn't do you any good.
Chameleos: See below. Blackwald Pixie: Is something like a 7-cost card, I think it's just too slow for such minimal benefit.
Dire Frenzy: It's just way too slow (though maybe I'm missing some of the recruit potential?).
Phantom Militia: I think it's just too bad of a card on its own, and getting to complete the quest a turn or two earlier doesn't make up for it.
Witching Hour: Yeah, but I don't really trust combos that rely on late-game legendaries (or at least not when you have to draw all of them).
Your placement of Wing Blast is incredibly the only choice I took umbrage with (as a pessimist) lol.
Lol, I just remember trying to play Volcanic Drake and Solemn Vigil and really struggling to pull them off (though it's been awhile, so it's possible I could get A minion dead on my turn, just not the several they needed).
I mostly agree, apart from Chameleos (fantastic card) and Nightmare Amalgam (great for every tribe deck). Additionally as I'm sure you are aware lots of the tier 2.5-3 cards will see play not because they are strong in themselves but because in combination with other cards they are really good (like Witchwood Grizzly and Witchwood Piper)
I think Chameleos is just too random. It doesn't give you much advantage over just running a card you want yourself, and due to its random nature there's no guarantee it'll be a card you need when you need it. Nightmare Amalgam strikes me as too generic to really improve any deck it goes in, and often tribes only need a minimum amount of synergy (though I'll think about it).
I also think people overestimate synergies. If a card isn't at least good in and of itself it can be risky running (with a few exceptions). Though I may have overlooked the Witchwood cards to some degree. I'll move them up to Tier 2.5 at least.
So one card of the whole 135 will definitely see play in the upcoming meta? Nope, it doesn't work like that.
Think of it as more only 1 card can be easily slotted into existing, top tier decks. I wouldn't even take a small Tier 1 to be a bad thing, honestly, as it shows the other cards will promote decks we don't currently see anything of and aren't obviously overpowered.
Druid of the Claw saw some play back in the day (though Druid odd decks are another argument). Forest Guide is mostly because I really wonder if swarm druid could make decent use of it.
I flip-flopped on Duskbat, but Zoo (if it ever can exist again) does pretty well when it can bring a lot out, and even a turn late I think Duskbat is pretty powerful. (Though I may consider dropping it a tier.) The Glass Knight is partly because I struggle to picture a Paladin deck where he'd be POWERFUL. I can him being good (in decks that don't really exist right now), but I'm not sure anything but fair.
Dollmaster Dorian is MAYBE with like Deathrattle decks. I think he stands above some of the Tier 3 cards, at least. WANTED! is just bad, it's overpriced and coins are nice but not that nice.
Druid of the Scythe... I'll think about. 3-mana 4 damage isn't the worst, and a 3-mana 2/4 taunt isn't great, but can be okay against paladin rush decks. I certainly wouldn't call it the best card of the set, though.
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So the past couple years I did a guide to the expansion released right before rotation, taking a good (sometimes) close look at the cards coming out. And while admittedly I screwed up with a few cards in Un'Goro, I'm hoping to remember the lessons I learned moving forward. (Even then my accuracy isn't all that bad, the majority of cards did end up not seeing play after all.)
Tier 1. Will See Play
Cards that can make it into a meta-deck.
Tier 2. Might See Play
Good cards, but cards that's decks may or may not see play.
Tier 2.5. Will Probably Not See Play
Bad cards, but not quite as bad as the bad cards.
Tier 3. Will Not See Play
The bad cards. The REALLY bad cards.
I think you might be holding your list upside down :P
bad list.. the applebum is terrible, the tokens cost 2..
I disagree with almost all your placements.
If you are not able to evaluate cards properly you shouldn't post lists like this.
I will crush you!
Rebuke tier 2.5?
Wispering Woods tier 3?
Serious? Are we playing the same game?
Paladin is a fast class, with small minions, which flood the whole board as long as no aoe spell comes around . In OTK you wanna save one or two horseriders. Rebuke can destroy a whole turn of spell hunter or exodia mage for 2 mana. I think it's better than Loatheb, cause paladin don't need a 5/5 Body and has 3 mana for drawing cards.
Wispering Woods is playable in a Big Druid with Sea Giant or in a token druid as well, which is still standard with penguin instead of patches.
IMHO, these two cards are metabreakers.
Inb4 Like in every other thread or post of mine, I will say, that we need to see the full card set from the Witchwood expansion, so that we can evaluate the cards better. I wouldn't mind to admit being wrong with my evaluations, but for now some of the cards seem to have potential to be played.
Updated the list before the big release tomorrow. Most of the cards ended up in Tier 3, though a few landed themselves in Tiers 2/2.5. I also subdivided Tier 2 a bit, so you can see my thoughts in where the card might end up (and we'll have to wait and see if those decks are trash or not).
Your placement of Wing Blast is incredibly the only choice I took umbrage with (as a pessimist) lol.
So one card of the whole 135 will definitely see play in the upcoming meta? Nope, it doesn't work like that.
I'll have a full set review that will go up after the live stream. But before that, I'll raise a few points with you.
Your tier 1 list is far too small. There are a number of very good cards in this set. At the very least, Countess Ashmore is a tier 1 card.
Gloom Stag is horrible.
Forest Guide and Druid of the Scythe are horrible.
Wing Blast is excellent.
Well educated ratings however I have some changes
forest guide should be tier 3
wing blast tier 2
Duskbat tier3
cursed castaway tier 3
the glass knight tier 2
dollmaster dorian tier 3
Wanted! Tier 2
warpath tier 2
Witching hour tier 2.5
witchwood grizzly tier 2
Your list is awful.
Druid of the Claw was good though. 4/6 Taunt was fine.
3-mana 2/4 Taunt is bad. 3-mana 4/2 Rush is bad.