In wild these 2 cards enable any combo you can think of. Malygos, Togwaggle, kripp even did an otk with Start Aligner! Because this combination of 2 cards is so powerful it not only limits design space, but it also ruins wild. As long as druid will be able to stall the game (which he will for a long time since they decided he should be able to get more armour than warrior) otk druid will be at least tier 2-3. One of these should be nerfed in some way. Or at least they should give us a way to counter it. There are only 3 cards that let you disrupt this kind of combo: a warlock only card and 2 unreliable taunt minions that heavily punish you for using them against control or aggro.
The game is pushed into an aggro and combo meta (at least in wild): who can be more aggressive/who draws the combo first. Combo druid will only get more and more consistent as time passes unless a nerf happens. And i fear they will nerf the wrong cards as the problem is not the stalling but the insta-win combo you just get by waiting 10-20 turns.
I'm not saying combo decks should not exist but now druid has around 10 otk combos possible just because of aviana+kun and i don't think that's fair.
There's enough combo disruption to make combo druids a non-issue in wild, considering the insane amount of minions they need to hoard for some combos.
If you don't run combo disruption, know the consequences. If you're an aggro deck, beat them before they can stabilize. If you can't, your issue isn't with their combo. It's with their amazing stalling ability.
People need to realise that Wild is a dumpster and Blizzards focus is on standard. Wild literally only exists because the game is electronic and it'd fucked up if they just took cards way from you.
I could care less about druid team 5 gone all the way into breaking the class really bad this expansion I just don't care anymore for the class yes aviana + kun is problematic, so is spreading plague, ultimate infestation,branching paths.. and most brown cards.. the point is to not care anymore just play the game not everyone is playing druid.. just try to play around spreading plague and rush them they win anyway late game unless you rush them or try to distrupt with dirty rat(wild) or demonic project(warlock only) or deathlord(wild).
I prefer to just enjoy those 2 weeks until people start spamming druid after zoo will get countered hard by the druid meta.
that being said I got to rank 5 with token druid really easily and it felt just disgusting against any other deck it isn't even fair, team 5 will eventually nerf both warlock and druid and then the meta should be more fun.. until 1.5 week from now enjoy the lack of druid decks that will rise a lot eventually.
I am not sure if I should be saying "can't care less about the class in general" it's more on the vein of.. MEH druid is broken and it's fine since team 5 loves druid too much.
The main problem card is plague, the ability to stop face damage for +2 turns sometimes with just 1 card is crazy. also armor should be capped at 30, for all classes.
The main problem card is plague, the ability to stop face damage for +2 turns sometimes with just 1 card is crazy. also armor should be capped at 30, for all classes.
Yeah I agree plague is the real problem card.. now with the annoy-o-wall it's even worse.. every class have a spreading plague sort of, and also druid has 4 of those, and ALSO druid is good against that minion too cause it plays into spreading plague
I think there shouldn't be a cap on armor, but a nerf to druid's armor generation.. it's just the better than warrior which is the armor class...
My Togwaggle druid that I reached legend with last season had a 82% winrate against the popular deathlord n rat renolocks. The main reason is that I can still do my combo after losing most of the cards, including Aviana and/or Kun
I don't think Aviana and Kun are OP if I can do my druid things just fine without them. Druid in general is just OP. Keep in mind that Aviana Kun decks were possible since Kun's printing in MSG, but these decks were simply meme tier until KFT where druid got its first batch of broken support cards
In wild these 2 cards enable any combo you can think of. Malygos, Togwaggle, kripp even did an otk with Start Aligner! Because this combination of 2 cards is so powerful it not only limits design space, but it also ruins wild. As long as druid will be able to stall the game (which he will for a long time since they decided he should be able to get more armour than warrior) otk druid will be at least tier 2-3. One of these should be nerfed in some way. Or at least they should give us a way to counter it. There are only 3 cards that let you disrupt this kind of combo: a warlock only card and 2 unreliable taunt minions that heavily punish you for using them against control or aggro.
The game is pushed into an aggro and combo meta (at least in wild): who can be more aggressive/who draws the combo first. Combo druid will only get more and more consistent as time passes unless a nerf happens. And i fear they will nerf the wrong cards as the problem is not the stalling but the insta-win combo you just get by waiting 10-20 turns.
I'm not saying combo decks should not exist but now druid has around 10 otk combos possible just because of aviana+kun and i don't think that's fair.
Aviana Kun are not problem cards simply for the fact that you can build many decks around them. That is terrible logic. You can make scores of decks based around C'Thun, N'Zoth, & Y'Sharjj but that doesn't mean those cards are broken or terribly designed. Plus, the decks that Aviana Kun enables are more or less a rose by any other name (ie they are almost all exclusively just another combo deck that plus the same).
Balanced and "fair" are very different. An intelligent wild control player will be using Brann & Dirty Rat due to being able to spontaneously win so many OTK and even some control match-ups. An even more intelligent player will more often than not get a good read on the opponent's hand and decide which turn presents the best chance to pull a combo piece with those two cards. For this reason, along with many other reasons (e.g. the presence of hyper aggressive decks being bad match-ups, the mere existence of Kingsbane Mill rogue hard countering most of these druid decks even after the Azalina change, etc) druid otk decks are kept in check and have never reached a tier 0 status. Most of these decks aren't even high tier 1. That is balanced.
"Fair" is silly to even discuss in a card game where classes do drastically different things from one another. Is it 'fair' that in wild a control lock has access to not only Gul'Dan, but N'Zoth as well, while on the other hand a control rogue, pally, or hunter list cannot? Is it fair that wild Burn Mages can do over 30 damage to face with spells, not including pings or minion damage, while hunter, rogue, and pallies have pitiful amounts of healing if they don't go for a highlander build and/or kingsbane for rogue? Fairness is pitifully subjective and means nothing due to it having so many meanings and being affected by the multifaceted concept called "class identity". Balance can be better measured, fairness cannot.
I am not sure if I should be saying "can't care less about the class in general" it's more on the vein of.. MEH druid is broken and it's fine since team 5 loves druid too much.
T5 doesn't only love druids. It all depends on what aspect of the game we're talking about. For example, I could say T5 is obsessed with paladin when designing future aggro cards. They have gotten the vast majority of minion-based aggro synergies, with warlock & rogue being a close second as of late. Why couldn't different classes get some aggro love instead (say make aggro priest a viability instead of just a occasionally successful dank meme?)
Now let's look at warlock. T5 loves vomiting powerful control tools into this class' lap repeatedly (e.g. Giving them Godfrey when they already had nether, defile, etc or giving them Gul'Dan completely carries control lock for many control mirrors). I'd say T5 loves warlock more than druid when it comes to control tools.
The point is that while druid has gotten a ton of love they are far from the only class getting some from the side for the other playstyles, people just focus on druids because of the recent combo variants.
The main problem card is plague, the ability to stop face damage for +2 turns sometimes with just 1 card is crazy. also armor should be capped at 30, for all classes.
Plague is very counterable. All of us who played since the game released learned very early on to not commit everything to the board because it played into things like Flamestrike and Holy Nova. That has always been overextension 101, but players nowadays? They vomit their hands onto the board because they aggressive decks are so damn greedy with the face damage and then complain that they are now facing 4-7 1/5 taunts. Yes you have decks that need to go wide, but there is a balance with doing so. Plus, there is an excellent tech card called Mossy Horror. I know aggressive decks don't like to tech anything because again the intense face greed and curvestone is real, but all archtypes/playstyles can benefit by including them (In this case tech against plague).
Okay we can have a cap on armor if we can get a cap on damage by a particular turn. Armor isn't the only thing that can be out of control. Damage has been as well. While I believe aggro serves an important role and should be around I don't think aggro decks should be able to kill some decks by turns 4-5. So, let's trade, we'll trade a cap on armor for a cap on early damage.
@lyra I think I mentioned mossy horror in another thread (they sure are a lot of druid hate threads now lol) it's a good tech card against druid's best defensive tool, the problem with including that is as you said playing around spreading plague is something you should do.. in my short climb in the last few days ( ranks 12-5) I got to play both sides of the coin (both aggro, and druid decks) and well you can play around SP quite well specially with magnetic making one minion bigger so even the board flood deck of odd paladin can beat spreading plague if played smartly enough..
The problem is though that druid has little weaknesses, it had before a problem of "no hard removal" but they added a lot of removal to druid, it had the problem of "if you ramp you are out of cards" but they fixed that too, they had the problem of "can't deal well with wide boards" but guess what they fixed that too, they did the same with warlock with giving the warlock class way too much healing I think that's wrong, they should keep the class identity problems intact and only slightly help those if the class needs help not totally negate those weaknesses.
I think they should in the future keep class weaknesses consistent, and every card that helps those problems cost way more than they currently cost.
BTW looking at win rates druid is balanced kind of, but when you play against/win druid it just feels like an unstoppable force.
The combo enabler is strong, but not stupidly OP, as it can be countered.
However, with that many decks depending on the combo and reliable ways to get there, those 2 cards are taking control of the whole class, in a similar way as FoN+SR did. Druid doesn't even need an incredible combo making plays for 50 mana in one turn to have a strong lategame win condition.
At some point, certain combos are simply getting old and boring, even for Wild. Aviana/Kun combos have had their time in the sun now. I think it is time for something else, and hope for a nerf soon. Next big rotation or earlier!
The fact that there are a ton of different combo decks doesn't matter if they're not good. Druid is the 3rd strongest class in wild, and that's only because of Token Druid, not combo decks. Plus, there's always Dirty Rat/Demonic Project. Why bother complaining about weakish decks with clear counters?
That said, Juicy Psychemelon tutors both of them, meaning you can usually get both on turn 10. Not a big deal if you don't have the other combo pieces, but it could pose a problem in the future. But again, let's cross that bridge when we get there
Aviana & Kun the Forgotten King are not the issue (yet). Combo Decks are fair as long as you have to draw your combo pieces organically.
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The combo enabler is strong, but not stupidly OP, as it can be countered.
However, with that many decks depending on the combo and reliable ways to get there, those 2 cards are taking control of the whole class, in a similar way as FoN+SR did. Druid doesn't even need an incredible combo making plays for 50 mana in one turn to have a strong lategame win condition.
At some point, certain combos are simply getting old and boring, even for Wild. Aviana/Kun combos have had their time in the sun now. I think it is time for something else, and hope for a nerf soon. Next big rotation or earlier!
Hopefully it becomes a Pirate Warrior situation. PW was a very powerful deck from the day Patches was released to the day he rotated, but after a while, it stopped seeing much play, simply because people were sick of it.
Combos have gotten stronger in 2 years. I recall playing some C'Thun druid a bit, before Jade took over. That seems almost quaint compared to combos these days.
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In wild these 2 cards enable any combo you can think of. Malygos, Togwaggle, kripp even did an otk with Start Aligner! Because this combination of 2 cards is so powerful it not only limits design space, but it also ruins wild. As long as druid will be able to stall the game (which he will for a long time since they decided he should be able to get more armour than warrior) otk druid will be at least tier 2-3. One of these should be nerfed in some way. Or at least they should give us a way to counter it. There are only 3 cards that let you disrupt this kind of combo: a warlock only card and 2 unreliable taunt minions that heavily punish you for using them against control or aggro.
The game is pushed into an aggro and combo meta (at least in wild): who can be more aggressive/who draws the combo first. Combo druid will only get more and more consistent as time passes unless a nerf happens. And i fear they will nerf the wrong cards as the problem is not the stalling but the insta-win combo you just get by waiting 10-20 turns.
I'm not saying combo decks should not exist but now druid has around 10 otk combos possible just because of aviana+kun and i don't think that's fair.
So what's new? been around for nearly 2 years
That's what I do; I drink and I know things.
God damn it stop saying that every fucking card is a problem.
There's enough combo disruption to make combo druids a non-issue in wild, considering the insane amount of minions they need to hoard for some combos.
If you don't run combo disruption, know the consequences. If you're an aggro deck, beat them before they can stabilize. If you can't, your issue isn't with their combo. It's with their amazing stalling ability.
I've said enough
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
People need to realise that Wild is a dumpster and Blizzards focus is on standard. Wild literally only exists because the game is electronic and it'd fucked up if they just took cards way from you.
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I could care less about druid team 5 gone all the way into breaking the class really bad this expansion I just don't care anymore for the class yes aviana + kun is problematic, so is spreading plague, ultimate infestation,branching paths.. and most brown cards.. the point is to not care anymore just play the game not everyone is playing druid.. just try to play around spreading plague and rush them they win anyway late game unless you rush them or try to distrupt with dirty rat(wild) or demonic project(warlock only) or deathlord(wild).
I prefer to just enjoy those 2 weeks until people start spamming druid after zoo will get countered hard by the druid meta.
that being said I got to rank 5 with token druid really easily and it felt just disgusting against any other deck it isn't even fair, team 5 will eventually nerf both warlock and druid and then the meta should be more fun.. until 1.5 week from now enjoy the lack of druid decks that will rise a lot eventually.
I am not sure if I should be saying "can't care less about the class in general" it's more on the vein of.. MEH druid is broken and it's fine since team 5 loves druid too much.
The main problem card is plague, the ability to stop face damage for +2 turns sometimes with just 1 card is crazy. also armor should be capped at 30, for all classes.
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Yeah I agree plague is the real problem card.. now with the annoy-o-wall it's even worse.. every class have a spreading plague sort of, and also druid has 4 of those, and ALSO druid is good against that minion too cause it plays into spreading plague
I think there shouldn't be a cap on armor, but a nerf to druid's armor generation.. it's just the better than warrior which is the armor class...
My Togwaggle druid that I reached legend with last season had a 82% winrate against the popular deathlord n rat renolocks. The main reason is that I can still do my combo after losing most of the cards, including Aviana and/or Kun
I don't think Aviana and Kun are OP if I can do my druid things just fine without them. Druid in general is just OP. Keep in mind that Aviana Kun decks were possible since Kun's printing in MSG, but these decks were simply meme tier until KFT where druid got its first batch of broken support cards
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
No, whole druid class is a real problem.
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Aviana Kun are not problem cards simply for the fact that you can build many decks around them. That is terrible logic. You can make scores of decks based around C'Thun, N'Zoth, & Y'Sharjj but that doesn't mean those cards are broken or terribly designed. Plus, the decks that Aviana Kun enables are more or less a rose by any other name (ie they are almost all exclusively just another combo deck that plus the same).
Balanced and "fair" are very different. An intelligent wild control player will be using Brann & Dirty Rat due to being able to spontaneously win so many OTK and even some control match-ups. An even more intelligent player will more often than not get a good read on the opponent's hand and decide which turn presents the best chance to pull a combo piece with those two cards. For this reason, along with many other reasons (e.g. the presence of hyper aggressive decks being bad match-ups, the mere existence of Kingsbane Mill rogue hard countering most of these druid decks even after the Azalina change, etc) druid otk decks are kept in check and have never reached a tier 0 status. Most of these decks aren't even high tier 1. That is balanced.
"Fair" is silly to even discuss in a card game where classes do drastically different things from one another. Is it 'fair' that in wild a control lock has access to not only Gul'Dan, but N'Zoth as well, while on the other hand a control rogue, pally, or hunter list cannot? Is it fair that wild Burn Mages can do over 30 damage to face with spells, not including pings or minion damage, while hunter, rogue, and pallies have pitiful amounts of healing if they don't go for a highlander build and/or kingsbane for rogue? Fairness is pitifully subjective and means nothing due to it having so many meanings and being affected by the multifaceted concept called "class identity". Balance can be better measured, fairness cannot.
T5 doesn't only love druids. It all depends on what aspect of the game we're talking about. For example, I could say T5 is obsessed with paladin when designing future aggro cards. They have gotten the vast majority of minion-based aggro synergies, with warlock & rogue being a close second as of late. Why couldn't different classes get some aggro love instead (say make aggro priest a viability instead of just a occasionally successful dank meme?)
Now let's look at warlock. T5 loves vomiting powerful control tools into this class' lap repeatedly (e.g. Giving them Godfrey when they already had nether, defile, etc or giving them Gul'Dan completely carries control lock for many control mirrors). I'd say T5 loves warlock more than druid when it comes to control tools.
The point is that while druid has gotten a ton of love they are far from the only class getting some from the side for the other playstyles, people just focus on druids because of the recent combo variants.
Plague is very counterable. All of us who played since the game released learned very early on to not commit everything to the board because it played into things like Flamestrike and Holy Nova. That has always been overextension 101, but players nowadays? They vomit their hands onto the board because they aggressive decks are so damn greedy with the face damage and then complain that they are now facing 4-7 1/5 taunts. Yes you have decks that need to go wide, but there is a balance with doing so. Plus, there is an excellent tech card called Mossy Horror. I know aggressive decks don't like to tech anything because again the intense face greed and curvestone is real, but all archtypes/playstyles can benefit by including them (In this case tech against plague).
Okay we can have a cap on armor if we can get a cap on damage by a particular turn. Armor isn't the only thing that can be out of control. Damage has been as well. While I believe aggro serves an important role and should be around I don't think aggro decks should be able to kill some decks by turns 4-5. So, let's trade, we'll trade a cap on armor for a cap on early damage.
@lyra I think I mentioned mossy horror in another thread (they sure are a lot of druid hate threads now lol) it's a good tech card against druid's best defensive tool, the problem with including that is as you said playing around spreading plague is something you should do.. in my short climb in the last few days ( ranks 12-5) I got to play both sides of the coin (both aggro, and druid decks) and well you can play around SP quite well specially with magnetic making one minion bigger so even the board flood deck of odd paladin can beat spreading plague if played smartly enough..
The problem is though that druid has little weaknesses, it had before a problem of "no hard removal" but they added a lot of removal to druid, it had the problem of "if you ramp you are out of cards" but they fixed that too, they had the problem of "can't deal well with wide boards" but guess what they fixed that too, they did the same with warlock with giving the warlock class way too much healing I think that's wrong, they should keep the class identity problems intact and only slightly help those if the class needs help not totally negate those weaknesses.
I think they should in the future keep class weaknesses consistent, and every card that helps those problems cost way more than they currently cost.
BTW looking at win rates druid is balanced kind of, but when you play against/win druid it just feels like an unstoppable force.
The combo enabler is strong, but not stupidly OP, as it can be countered.
However, with that many decks depending on the combo and reliable ways to get there, those 2 cards are taking control of the whole class, in a similar way as FoN+SR did. Druid doesn't even need an incredible combo making plays for 50 mana in one turn to have a strong lategame win condition.
At some point, certain combos are simply getting old and boring, even for Wild. Aviana/Kun combos have had their time in the sun now. I think it is time for something else, and hope for a nerf soon. Next big rotation or earlier!
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The fact that there are a ton of different combo decks doesn't matter if they're not good. Druid is the 3rd strongest class in wild, and that's only because of Token Druid, not combo decks. Plus, there's always Dirty Rat/Demonic Project. Why bother complaining about weakish decks with clear counters?
That said, Juicy Psychemelon tutors both of them, meaning you can usually get both on turn 10. Not a big deal if you don't have the other combo pieces, but it could pose a problem in the future. But again, let's cross that bridge when we get there
I could write an entire post but instead I'll just refer you to my article:
Link: http://wildhs.com/wilds-druid-combo-decks-the-blame-game/
Aviana & Kun the Forgotten King are not the issue (yet). Combo Decks are fair as long as you have to draw your combo pieces organically.
Hopefully it becomes a Pirate Warrior situation. PW was a very powerful deck from the day Patches was released to the day he rotated, but after a while, it stopped seeing much play, simply because people were sick of it.
What we really need is an anti-armor tech. Something like a minion that removes opponent's armor with its battlecry.
When people are playing aggro they should be beating combo and OTK anyway lol
Combos have gotten stronger in 2 years. I recall playing some C'Thun druid a bit, before Jade took over. That seems almost quaint compared to combos these days.