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    posted a message on Will the loss of Radiant Elemental signal the welcome deathknelll of Mindblast Priest?

    Mana reduction is everything for a lot of different types of OTK decks that have been around. Unless a copycat card is introduced into the game via uninspired fashion then I suspect OTK priest will be DOA in standard. 

    Now combo priest on the other hand. That could still be a thing. As long as you can burn large chunks of the opponent's face away there will be a way.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Classes that will be hit hardest from rotation

    My first thought was also warlock. I'd say mage will also suffer a lot. Tempo Mage is mostly dead and with the rotation mage loses Jaina, which means the core of every other slow mage deck is removed (control mage, BSM, elemental mage). Without seeing new cards post rotation the class simply falls apart without Jaina.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on I went to Legend (my story)
    Quote from Malygoddd >>

    If the grind is that stressful with decks that strong then you’re doing something wrong

    I don't necessarily agree depending on which deck we're talking about. I also hit legend for the first time ever in the last week (first time ever above rank 5 tbh) and the thing that finally did it for me? I stopped playing Even Shaman, which kept me bouncing between rank 3 and 1 for the longest time, and instead went for a type of deck that kept hard countering me (Dragon Priest, in my case the Reno variant). 

    After I stopped playing Even Shaman, which instantly lost to any form of Dragon Priest, Odd Warrior, and struggled against Odd Rogue if I didn't get my Golaka Crawlers/Eels I massively boosted my success rate and had way fewer losses. You can have a powerful deck and know how to pilot it fairly well, but there are multiple hard counters to your deck then you are absolutely going to struggle if you don't happen to dodge them in the queue during your grind. I don't think it was coincidence that Reno Dragon Priest took me to Legend when Even Shaman did not. The deck's only hard counter between rank 5 to legend was Odd Warrior, with Big Priest being a hard match-up if they highroll you and/or you aren't familiar with the match-up (btw I took many Big Priests almost to fatigue a number of times during my grind), with Kingsbane Rogue only being slightly unfavored. 

    The deck with fewer bad match-ups will always net you better results than the deck with more bad match-ups (assuming you pilot both decks about equally).

    BTW, gratz OP! Although I still dislike Big Priest ;P

    Posted in: Wild Format
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    posted a message on Kingsbane Rogue stronger than ever?

    Reno Dragon Priest does an okay job against. During my climb to legend I usually only lost to the deck if I drew absolutely horribly or if Myra's Unstable Element brought them back into the game after being run out of resources. The deck is very similar to Odd Rogue, just with more steady face damage and less board control.

    Posted in: Wild Format
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    posted a message on Just why?
    Quote from KingCarnage >>

    wth dude. That's wild and only lasts one turn. You FREQUENTLY respond to general or wide-scoped opinions with ONE (usual class specific) answer.  A better answer would have been Nerubian Unraveler which doesnt see play because it costs too much. If that was a 3 or 4 cost card, it'd literally change META.

    This comment is not an opinion on water elementals/DK Jaina, just your weak pigeonhole responses.

    It doesn't matter that it is wild only because it used to be part of the main format. Plus Jaina is going to be wild only very soon.

    The post also wasn't asking for spell-hate that lasted the entire game after playing it, but responding that there is really good spell hate effects. Plus, it should be noted that if Jaina is massively affecting a weapon wielding player's ability to use weapons and win a game (no earlier than turn 8 with the coin) then they probably haven't noticed that they have lost already (no aggressive weapon wielding class should be taken to the late game and still expect to win).

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Why Wild mode is the best
    Quote from Morkimus >>

    Wild Ladder = Standard Ladder (2-3 decks facing each other 50 times in a row, very exciting)

    Wild Casual > Standard Casual in my experience. Today I actually saw a C'Thun druid, a dragon warrior, a few dragon priests, an even mage, an even highlander priest, a murloc shaman (though I hated his guts), an Anyfin paladin (at least seemed like it, but the game ended before he played any Anyfin spell) and a quest paladin.

    I am not saying there wasn't plenty of Even shaman and Big priest in the mix (because let's face it, there still was), but at least there was something else after those games. Every time I go to Standard Casual, I am greeted by whatever deck people are complaining about, from Cubelock (KnC) to Odd Paladin (WW) to Shudderwock (BDP) to just Hunter decks (now). Casual in Standard is quite literally ladder without stars.

    ^ This. Standard casual meme decks are extremely restricted. If you're after fun decks I have no idea why some players would go to standard for it, you have net decks in casual in both formats. Might as well have a wider variety of fun in wild.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Just why?
    Quote from YouthThunder >>
    Quote from beppe946 >>
    Quote from YouthThunder >>

    DK Jaina is not only very strong it is also stupidly unfair vs weapon classes, while there are already a lot of ways to counter weapons. The oozes are already borderline unfair. Harrison Jones is a thing. Water elemental is a 4 mana 3/6 that freeze characters that is borderline op. 

     I completely agree with you: Water Elemental perfectly represents the DK Frost Lich flavor, however, some classes have natural unfavorable matchup because of this

    Every class needs to have an unfavorable match-up... 

    The goal isn't to make it so that every class has neutral or favorable match-ups.

     Well in thta case i want blizzard to print powerful class cards that can punishes spells then  Since other classes got punished solely because they wield weapons

    Ever hear of a card called Loatheb? One of the best anti-spell setups for lethal in just about every midrange and some aggro decks.

    Or you know, Counterspell in pre-nerf Tempo Mage. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Fun decks?

    Here are some of my decks I like to play often

    Spectral Pillager Rogue homebrew

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    Minion (21) Ability (7) Weapon (1) Playable Hero (1)
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    Menagerie Warden OTK Druid (with deathrattles & N'Zoth)

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    Minion (18) Ability (11) Playable Hero (1)
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    Ancient Curse Togwaggle Druid

    Ancient Curse Togwaggle Druid
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    Minion (17) Ability (12) Playable Hero (1)
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    Aviana K'Thun Druid
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    Minion (16) Ability (13) Playable Hero (1)
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    Druid of the Claw OTK Druid
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    Minion (21) Ability (8) Playable Hero (1)
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    Deathspeaker Geist Warlock
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    Minion (18) Ability (10) Weapon (1) Playable Hero (1)
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    Minion (15) Ability (13) Weapon (1) Playable Hero (1)
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    There are a bunch of other fun decks too. Weasel Priest, Mimiron's Head Rogue, Mimiron's Head Quest Mage, Renounce Lock, Hysteria's Mill Lock, Mill Shudderwok Shaman, good old Murlock, DMH Warrior with Iron Jugs, etc.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on OTK Decks
    Quote from DiamondDM13 >>
    Quote from Apoc7 >>

     If you play control too you should understand a lot of the complaints and frustration that control players have (which is not the fault of combo players or the game) is the inherent playstyle of the control vs. combo matchups. It feels terrible for control players because the matches take fairly long just for them to end up losing most of the time since its a bad matchup. The same applies for heavy midrange decks, they are also unfavored versus combo decks and the matchups take awhile just to end up losing. The easy solution is to just auto concede to not waste time, but that just feels awful since most players are competitive people. 

    Aggro, low curved midrange/tempo, combo players have the luxury of games ending fast regardless if they are unfavored or not, so they don't feel like they wasted a lot of time when it is unfavored for them. And even if matchups do end up taking a long time for combo players, they are usually favored(i.e. against control), so it's not a complete waste of time for them.

    Like I said, no one is of fault here, its just the inherent playstyle of control and heavy midrange decks (they always have the hardest time). I just want to point out to y'all that this is most likely where all the frustration stems from. Coincidentally, these are the 2 archetypes that are dying in Hearthstone atm, meanwhile back then, these 2 archetypes were one of the most popular ones while combo were almost non-existent, besides freeze mage and combo druid. 

     It is because I play both, Control and Combo, that I have the perspective I have. The frustration comes from the loss. It is simply amplified by the duration of the loss.

    This is the whole issue why there tends to be more complaints about Combo than Aggro. They are both effective against their favoured prey, the difference comes in the duration of the matchup. Truth is, players are less likely to be sustain their frustration against Aggro because the loss of time was lower. Combo losses take longer, you lose less time. You can easily lose 5 games against an Aggro deck in the time that takes you to lose 1 or 2 games against Combo, and many people will still feel more frustrated by the single Combo loss compared to the 5 Aggro losses.

    Which lets be honest, is not very logical. You should feel more frustrated by losing 5 games compared to losing 1 or 2 games, you just felt like the loss was "more painful", because it took longer to realise it. (I don't mean realise as in understand it was happening, but in terms of taking place.)

    This is funny because it completely excludes what I would consider the most frustrating of them all, the Control mirror. This is by far the longest loss people will experience, it is likely to create the most frustration out of anything, you lose the most time possible here. The only reason this is not even discussed, is because these happen only once in a blue moon. I only recall a single true Control Mirror I had since the start of December, they are extremely rare. I didn't lose, but I can imagine the frustration of my opponent, as he did express some afterwards to me.

    Your second paragraph seems to overlook one very obvious problem.

    When you play Combo, and against Control, you do are favoured, and you are aware of it, you navigate your matchup as best as possible to guarantee you don't lose the game, since the game is yours to lose. If both players play perfectly, the Combo player will basically always win, and that is how it should be.

    With this is mind, it is on the Combo player to make mistakes for the Control player to take advantage of. The Control player has to always player perfectly or close to it to be able to win, which is how it should be (and is the flaw most Control players fail to realise in their own gameplay). Sure, the Control player can create situations for the Combo player to induce them in error, which is how most mistakes happen.

    If you introduce a variable like Dirty Rat, or any other Instant Win card in the matchup, the frustration you create for the Combo player is the peak of frustration you can create. The Combo player is meant to win the matchup, regardless of whether you like that fact or not, he is meant to win the game. This variable effectively nullifies any work the Combo player did for the entire game to ensure their victory, which is what they have to be doing, and suddenly removes the ability for the Combo player to win.

    This is beyond frustrating. You spent your entire, long game, producing the perfect game plan to ensure your deserved victory, and suddenly, the opponent plays a single card, and wins the game. You lose that game, and you lose all that time you spent producing the perfect game plan.

    I'm not going to deny that it can be frustrating to lose a long game to a Combo deck as Control, but you know from the start you are meant to lose, you should lose, even if you don't like that fact. It is fair even if you don't like it, because you opted for a strategy that is weak to the opponent, perfectly fair for them to win the game.

    When a single card is played and a Combo player loses to a Control player after a long game, specially when everything was player correctly, this is unfair. You chose to play a strategy that is favoured against the opponent, for the opponent to simply play a card and instantly win, regardless of whether or not they played the game correctly, and you as well, is unfair. You shouldn't lose the game, specially like that. If you make mistakes and the Control player takes advantage of that, it is perfectly fair, you didn't do your job correctly. But losing to an Instant Win card is not fair, and that is what creates the most frustration.

    If you want to take this on the side of the Control player, just think of any Aggro Hunter deck. You are meant to win the game, now imagine the Hunter player decides to add Rexxar DK to the deck and draws it early enough in the game. Suddenly, you lose, because of a single card. It is unfair. It is extremely frustrating, because even if you played the game perfectly, you just lost to a single card.

    I think this is what people seem to miss. They really want Instant Win cards, but they completely fail to realise just how frustrating they are. Far more frustrating than any normal consequence of the Rock - Paper - Scissors model inherent to Strategy Card Games.

    It's best that your frustration comes from something fair, than from something unfair.

    Very well said post. For me it is always interesting when people talk about how an instant win card against OTK decks is fair, but a more or less instant win card for aggro against control is not fair. It just reveals the inherent bias that parts of this community has, and as a result, discredits many of their arguments against OTK decks.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on OTK Decks
    Quote from Apoc7 >>

     

    I personally don't see a problem with OTK decks however I do understand your complaint some games can become boring but I think it's a necessary evil to prevent control decks from dominating the meta. Most otk’s can be played around in some way or another.

    Mech’tun and hakkar

    Hakkar and a full hand

    Paladin... Next please


     

     

    Can people STOP saying combo decks need to exist to keep control decks in check. How is the control archetype even remotely popular right now, unlike combo, which is everywhere. Odd warrior, BSM, Controlock are the semi played control decks and they aren't even remotely popular unlike combo decks. Look at back in the days, control decks were everywhere but you didn't see the game collapsing to it's doom. As a matter of fact, it's arguable that most people found the old days a much better experience than now.

     

    If you didn't have OTKs I can guarantee you that warlock, priest, warrior, & mage would all take the place of the annoying (have an answer to everything) Tank-Up Control Warriors today. 

    The issue I have with control is that not every class has a control deck that is even remotely at the same power level as some of the above classes. Consequently, the lusted over control meta only favors some classes. Even in wild you almost cannot reach the same greed levels as warlock/warrior/priest when you play a non-Kingsbane control rogue or a non-otk control paladin. For example, in wild I have a deathrattle N'Zoth rogue. When playing against a control lock/priest/mage/warrior I ALWAYS have to wait to play N'Zoth until I have Shadowstep (unless for some reason I'm going to lose anyway) simply because the greed of the other player will almost always ensure they can mostly or completely answer my board. I have to make the greediest of plays to even have a chance against the classes that T5 blesses with the constant powerhouse control cards.

    Without OTKs the game will seem to allow many people to be able to competitively play control much more, you just will only have 3-4 classes that can actual competitively survive attempting control. Imo, control limits its own archtype by making just a few classes too diverse in its toolkit.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on [S57 Wild Legend] - Reno Dragon Priest

    Thank you for posting the deck! I was stuck going back and forth between ranks 3 and 1, but I took your deck to legend for the first time :D

    Only hiccups I had during the grind were due to two Kingsbane Rogues getting back into the game with Myra's Unstable Element, as well as Pirate Warrior who got had both captains out on a board full of pirates by turn 5 (while I full mulliganned into all of my most expensive cards).

    The deck is very solid sustaining board presence or retaking the board. I found myself very often holding my own even during plenty of games without Anduin being drawn early on. And of course the deck just slaughters Even Shaman & Odd Rogue. Kingsbane Rogue seemed like an okay match-up, if you didn't draw poorly while they drew great. I didn't run into too many Odd Warrior thankfully (I'd imagine they would be an unfavored match-up?)

    Lastly, I subbed out Thalnos for a primordial drake since I didn't have him.

     

    Posted in: [S57 Wild Legend] - Reno Dragon Priest
  • 1

    posted a message on Group therapy! Need to blow off steam? Mega salty? Here is the place! V2

    Have absolutely no idea why some people actually enjoy grinding the ladder to legend. Got to rank 1 3 stars & rank 1 2 stars a few times. Now I'm back to rank 2 at 2 stars. Don't even have anything to show for all of those hours of grinding. Waste of the end of a Saturday. How annoying.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on OTK Decks
    Quote from Nickfuryusn >>

    When you play a certain deck, yes, we understand that there are bad matchups were the odds are already way against you. But the thing people are talking about is the fact that you just plain lose before the match even begins. There has to be a balance between having the odds stacked agaisnt you and just plain insta-losing just based on what you like to play. That's not fun and interactive gameplay, that's just lazy design.

    Sometimes this is on the fault of the players, not the design of the cards. Two great examples of this in the past were both Taunt Druid & especially Token Druid. Both decks were more or less created by the players, not forced archtypes in a single set that T5 created.

    Taunt Druid pigeonholed itself into a strong, yet gimmicky taunt attrition win condition. Yet the deck's win rate massively took a plunge the moment it faced any deck running Poly or Hex. The deck didn't really run an alternate win condition in those scenarios outside of 'play more big taunts' or cube some big stuff.

    Token Druid was an incredible one trick pony. Players revived the token druid deck, jumping on the Whispering Wods hype train, with great success. The only problem? You almost always instantly lost to Defile, Hellfire, Devolve, & Psychic Scream. Let's not mention that some of the decks that run those cards could also just play only 1-2 minions for the rest of the game after dealing with WW in order to never be threatened by Plague + SotF. 

    If you're losing to OTK decks before the game even begins then chances are whatever you're playing is like the Taunt Druid & Token Druid of before; a deck that relies too much on one thing. For example, which is more at fault for creating a polarizing scenario, an OTK deck like Mecha'Thun Lock or Malygos Druid that has a slow win condition but can still win some games if they lose their OTK or Odd Warrior, which relies just on killing everything and chucking out throwaway minions for something to do? When Odd Warrior can't beat you by out grinding you then what are they going to do to pull of a win exactly? They have a very few options and in that specific case it is the fault of players for building Odd Warrior to rely on nothing but grinding out the other player to win. T5 didn't say that the community needed to build the deck that way, and thus almost always instantly lose to many OTK decks, but the players pigeionholed the deck into that.

    OTKs, or any deck for that matter, that co-creates a polarizing match-up isn't always at fault for that by nature. If you have a deck that only does one thing then by consequence you are going to lose to things that your deck doesn't target. We shouldn't go around nerfing things to favor one trick pony decks (which includes OTKs that can't win without the OTK).

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Why are many players still using these non interactive decks although the win rates below average
    Quote from KingCarnage >>

    The joy of masturbation decks has increased ever since quest rogue. If you're not a good or strategic thinker which the average hs player is not(hence only netdecking and playing the same deck for a month or longer), it's much easier to play yourself than an opponent. Mechacthun, specifically, is bullshit. But even before that, ALL the stupid aviana druid deck were as unbalanced as you can get.

    Mecha'Thun insta loses to Mojomaster the turn right before they are going to go off with their combo, with the only out being if a Mecha'Thun lock still has some threats or resources to stall back up to turn 10 again. Demonic Project also instantly wins under the exact same conditions as Mojomaster, as does Dirty Rat in wild. This honestly seems like something more worthy of a salt thread argument. The counters are there, with both neutral & class counters.

    As for Aviana decks the only one that was oppresive was SA Druid in wild. Outside of that one deck Malygos Druid was decent but that was it. And when you take into consideration the wild format you could counter it with Ice Block or obscene amounts of armor. We could technically include Aviana Togwaggle since it was an Aviana deck, but it was purely a combo deck, not an OTK. Outside of those three decks every other Aviana deck was low tier (or more often pure meme status). In no other wild meta did I ever see an Aviana deck played in large or consistent amounts. It should also be noted that Aviana decks were almost completely non-existent in the wild ladder prior to Branching Paths & UI & SA only saw play because of Psychmelon. If Aviana decks were truly broken due to things like Aviana then we should have seen them prior to the actual busted druid support/carry cards.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on OTK Decks
    Quote from Wingdude22 >>
    Quote from DiamondDM13 >>
    Quote from beardfasse >>

     That's a very sub-par argument. "Why do we need soap if you'll get dirty at the end of the day?" (basically)

    Card games are all about odds. With no neutral anti-combo card it's almost impossible to win control vs combo mu. What's wrong about adding a card to standard which will increase the odds of winning to control players (and not only control players, btw). No one's asking for an insta-win card.

     Can you present a non Insta-Win Card that fits your needs?

    Dirty Rat doesn't fit the need. It overwhelmingly presents Control players with an Insta-Win situation whenever player, almost nullifying the natural advantage of the Combo decks, in turn, placing Control in an imbalanced situation where they face no hard disadvantage against Combo, while retaining their heavy advantage against Aggro.

    Wild mode already enables this to occur and only a heavy balance problem called Barnes overshadows it. You can build an what is an almost invincible deck, a highlander Warlock with Combo disruption tools. It has everything, excellent tools to deal with Aggro, enough removal to withstand Midrange, enough value to match Control and the tools to disrupt Combo (which only requires one or two card slots).

     

    At the moment I play my midrange/ Controlish eggPaladin , and just had a game against an oddrouge, he had a good start ,and beat me . But I know usually I should be slightly favored. Next game we meet again and after a longer game with Mira’s element etc. i was finally able to stabilize.  No one of us ( probably) felt like he was heavily favored,or had zero chances. Decisions , taking risk, and luck ofc, all that and more made those games... simply fun . Do you have The same feeling playing an OTK deck? 

    ( I know OTK decks can be hard to pilot, but do you really feel happy beating an OddWarrior,or another OTK deck where you had all your cycle first?  ) 

    Of course I have the same feeling playing an OTK deck. If I enjoy the playstyle why wouldn't I enjoy it just because others have a reason for why they don't like it?

    I'm also not sure what your experience is with playing OTK decks but it is generally vs aggro and midrange decks that your most skill testing games as an OTK deck come out. For many of these decks you have to decide first of all what your win condition is. Is it still your OTK? Can your deck win another way if you throw your pieces away for tempo (some OTK decks can do this while others don't do this as well, such as Mecha'Thun Priest)? If you need your OTK to win are there any combo pieces you can throw away or commit for tempo to stay alive and still pull of a win with reduced OTK burst or less consistency in the late game combo if you throw a less vital piece away. 

    I think you have it all wrong by looking for the most skill in an OTK deck by comparing it to control. OTK/Combo has always been meant to punish slow greed, so naturally it will always be favored over aggressive match-ups and result in fewer difficult decisions when not matched up against aggressive decks. I get a lot of satisfaction and feel proud of games when I am facing a very aggressive and threatening opponent and decide that I need to throw away combo pieces to change or completely overhaul my win condition for the game (I do this all of the time with my Spectral Pillager Rogue in wild vs things like Odd Pally, Pirate Warrior, and sometimes Odd Rogue & Even Shaman). It may seem to hard to accept that other players & playstyles achieve the same experiences you do (just with different match-ups), but believe me it happens. Hating on a playstyle doesn't suddenly take its skill-testing and/or enjoyable aspects away for other people.

    EDIT: To turn your argument on its head I could ask if you stop feeling enjoyment for playing control when you get matched up against very favorable match-ups for your particular control deck? Does the existence of favorable match-ups for control make it so that control takes less skill and rewards you with less enjoyment? See how silly the question is?

    Posted in: General Discussion
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