9 of the 15 most played cards in Wild are druid class cards.
One version of Star aligner druid is currently 10% of the decks played.
No, the way to counter the deck isn't to tech against it, it is to play snowbally decks like odd paladin and even shaman that doesn't allow ramping and drawing in the earlygame.
Yes, Juicy Psychmelon is problematic, but simply nerfing Aviana to 10 mana seems the most elegant to me. All the combos would still be playable through Innervate and Emperor Thaurissan. A 50-mana turn should be much harder to set up!
Even now Star Aligner Druid which is close to Tier S struggles a lot against Even Shaman and disrupting cards like Rat. While we all agree that Psychmelon is problematic, nerfing Aviana to 10 would weaken all the Druid decks. Even the Malygos version that currently sees almost 0 play. Set up is already hard enough because you need to not die and not get cucked by Control decks. Real offender is Psychmelon. A more busted UI in Combo decks.
9 of the 15 most played cards in Wild are druid class cards.
One version of Star aligner druid is currently 10% of the decks played.
No, the way to counter the deck isn't to tech against it, it is to play snowbally decks like odd paladin and even shaman that doesn't allow ramping and drawing in the earlygame.
Yes, Juicy Psychmelon is problematic, but simply nerfing Aviana to 10 mana seems the most elegant to me. All the combos would still be playable through Innervate and Emperor Thaurissan. A 50-mana turn should be much harder to set up!
Even now Star Aligner Druid which is close to Tier S struggles a lot against Even Shaman and disrupting cards like Rat. While we all agree that Psychmelon is problematic, nerfing Aviana to 10 would weaken all the Druid decks. Even the Malygos version that currently sees almost 0 play. Set up is already hard enough because you need to not die and not get cucked by Control decks. Real offender is Psychmelon. A more busted UI in Combo decks.
Eventually, I think all Aviana/Kun combo decks should be demoted to lower tiers. There are plenty of other combo decks possible in Wild too, but where are they?
My point is that Aviana/Kun has been around for quite a long time already. When odd paladin, even shaman, odd pirate rogue or even kingsbane rogue have been dominating their deckstyle long enough, I see no reason to not nerf them as well.
The Combo itself is not the problem. Aviana + Kun is always the same, whatever the combo: basically an OTK.
Now look at Exodia Mage. Still an OTK deck. Yet, why is Combo Druid rampant (pun intended), while Exodia Mage is t4?
A correct and extensive answer (taking into account all the complex variables) will tell us what is the real edge of Combo Druid, and within that edge, what is problematic.
Personally, I think the Armor in Ferocious Howl, Branching Paths, Ultimate Infestation should be converted in Healing, which requires better planning against the curve (instead of current Armor up on curve).
Your problem is that you're playing wild. I have d/e'd all my wild cards to focus on building strong standard decks. Much less to deal with.. With wild, it's so difficult to build a deck that is effective against all decks, because there are soooo many more possible decks.. I get that there are favourable matchups and unfavourable matchups in standard as well, but there are some really strong options available to you in standard that will win you more games than they will lose, such as Odd Rogue, Heal Zoolock, Control Warrior, Deathrattle Hunter. Combo decks are much less an issue in standard. Do yourself a favour and leave wild behind, as Blizzard clearly has.
Your problem is the fact that you don't know what are you talking about. Wild has way more decks, way more uderdog decks, way more options. You can clearly see the player satisfaction for both formats by looking trough hearhtpwn and comparing how much salt threads there are about Standard and how much about Wild.
You obviously did not read my comment. I was stating that Wild is too cluttered and that building a deck to tech against one specific problem will not win you many games as a whole.. I'm not sure what your issue is, besides obviously being salty about losing too many games to a deck that you can avoid playing against simply by switching to the Standard format.
The Combo itself is not the problem. Aviana + Kun is always the same, whatever the combo: basically an OTK.
Now look at Exodia Mage. Still an OTK deck. Yet, why is Combo Druid rampant (pun intended), while Exodia Mage is t4?
A correct and extensive answer (taking into account all the complex variables) will tell us what is the real edge of Combo Druid, and within that edge, what is problematic.
Personally, I think the Armor in Ferocious Howl, Branching Paths, Ultimate Infestation should be converted in Healing, which requires better planning against the curve (instead of current Armor up on curve).
I've always thought that Branching Paths' text should have read "Choose Two" not "Choose Twice". That way you're only entitled to gain 6 armor and not 12.. Not saying the card needs a nerf, just saying that the card would have been much more balanced with a Choose Two effect rather than a Choose Twice effect.
how are the combo breaking minions not reliable? OTK Druid runs like 4-8 total minions in their entire deck and it needs most of those minions in their hand the whole time until the combo is ready ; they need each of them (Aviana, Kun, Togwaggle, Azalina for example, losing any of these except Kun (if the Druid also runs Innervates/Biology Project that is) is a massive issue) and just a tiny bit of timing will throw a giant wrench into whatever they're trying to do. so, just time it? you also have to take in count that some matchups you simply lose because they're unfavorable ; this is nothing new and it is a part of Blizzard's design philosophy. for example, Jade, Kazakus and pirates.
we might talk about how Aviana + Kun limits design space, sure, but that's an everpresent problem and that's why Standard exists.
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''He traded sands for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand.''
9 of the 15 most played cards in Wild are druid class cards.
One version of Star aligner druid is currently 10% of the decks played.
No, the way to counter the deck isn't to tech against it, it is to play snowbally decks like odd paladin and even shaman that doesn't allow ramping and drawing in the earlygame.
Yes, Juicy Psychmelon is problematic, but simply nerfing Aviana to 10 mana seems the most elegant to me. All the combos would still be playable through Innervate and Emperor Thaurissan. A 50-mana turn should be much harder to set up!
Even now Star Aligner Druid which is close to Tier S struggles a lot against Even Shaman and disrupting cards like Rat. While we all agree that Psychmelon is problematic, nerfing Aviana to 10 would weaken all the Druid decks. Even the Malygos version that currently sees almost 0 play. Set up is already hard enough because you need to not die and not get cucked by Control decks. Real offender is Psychmelon. A more busted UI in Combo decks.
Eventually, I think all Aviana/Kun combo decks should be demoted to lower tiers. There are plenty of other combo decks possible in Wild too, but where are they?
My point is that Aviana/Kun has been around for quite a long time already. When odd paladin, even shaman, odd pirate rogue or even kingsbane rogue have been dominating their deckstyle long enough, I see no reason to not nerf them as well.
There are 3 Tier 2 underdog combo decks that come into my mind which are Anyfin Paladin, OTK Quest Priest and Reno OTK Priest that still can archieve up to 60 dmg. Played all 3 of them. Their huge upside compared to Druid is that they are way less vulnerable to hand/deck disruptions. Majority playing Combo druid just proves that it is more powerfull, but there are certainly other combo decks that are good too.
The Wild is the place that is supposed to be varied and some decks are there for years. Thats how eternal formats naturally evolves. I don't see a reason why some decks should be nerfed because thy were good for too long. We have the whole format for this called Standard and if the same thing happens to Wild, then Blizzard will have another money-milking machine because people will need to buy all the new sets in order to compete in Wild format.
Your problem is that you're playing wild. I have d/e'd all my wild cards to focus on building strong standard decks. Much less to deal with.. With wild, it's so difficult to build a deck that is effective against all decks, because there are soooo many more possible decks.. I get that there are favourable matchups and unfavourable matchups in standard as well, but there are some really strong options available to you in standard that will win you more games than they will lose, such as Odd Rogue, Heal Zoolock, Control Warrior, Deathrattle Hunter. Combo decks are much less an issue in standard. Do yourself a favour and leave wild behind, as Blizzard clearly has.
Your problem is the fact that you don't know what are you talking about. Wild has way more decks, way more uderdog decks, way more options. You can clearly see the player satisfaction for both formats by looking trough hearhtpwn and comparing how much salt threads there are about Standard and how much about Wild.
You obviously did not read my comment. I was stating that Wild is too cluttered and that building a deck to tech against one specific problem will not win you many games as a whole.. I'm not sure what your issue is, besides obviously being salty about losing too many games to a deck that you can avoid playing against simply by switching to the Standard format.
And you obviously haven't read my comment. My comment basically says that Wild is all that Standard was supposed to be. F2P-friendly, Very well varied, Less problematic in terms of balance and all archetypes have a good decks here. Some matchups are polarising but not to so much compared to Standard ones. There are obviously decks that win over the others. Don't act that your Tier 1 and 2 decks are somehow unique cause they win against various things. We have Tiers there too. And you tell me to abandon all of it for polarising matchups, less deckbuilding options, getting cucked by specific archetype like combo or aggro based on the meta just so I won't play against Star Aligner Druid?
Omg Wild Players always crying when they know that Wild is purposefully unbalanced.
Honestly I don't believe most of these complaints come from players that stuck to wild since the split, but whiners that drifted in from standard and carried over that personality from standard that if you complain about something that beats you then you won't have to play a counter.
I like how people assumed i play aggro and i don't want to play tech cards. There are decks where putting tech cards ruins your game like big priest. Getting a dirty rat from barnes or shadow essence just looses you the game.
I like how people assumed i play aggro and i don't want to play tech cards. There are decks where putting tech cards ruins your game like big priest. Getting a dirty rat from barnes or shadow essence just looses you the game.
Lol? Big Priests?
Are we seriously bringing Big Priest as an argument against allegedly broken decks?
I like how people assumed i play aggro and i don't want to play tech cards. There are decks where putting tech cards ruins your game like big priest. Getting a dirty rat from barnes or shadow essence just looses you the game.
Lol? Big Priests?
Are we seriously bringing Big Priest as an argument against allegedly broken decks?
Genuinely speaking, Big Priest isn’t in his best shape right now ( middle Tier 2 at best), It’s a killer of a slower decks such as Control Warrior in a meta where Even Shaman and the Aggro decks are prevalent and Star Aligner Druid laughs at your minions as it deals 56 damage everywhere. Combo Druids can buy enough time to cheat death with them, while any good Aggro deck usually kills it by turn 5 due to a lack of good options early.
I like how people assumed i play aggro and i don't want to play tech cards. There are decks where putting tech cards ruins your game like big priest. Getting a dirty rat from barnes or shadow essence just looses you the game.
Lol? Big Priests?
Are we seriously bringing Big Priest as an argument against allegedly broken decks?
Genuinely speaking, Big Priest isn’t in his best shape right now ( middle Tier 2 at best), It’s a killer of a slower decks such as Control Warrior in a meta where Even Shaman and the Aggro decks are prevalent and Star Aligner Druid laughs at your minions as it deals 56 damage everywhere. Combo Druids can buy enough time to cheat death with them, while any good Aggro deck usually kills it by turn 5 due to a lack of good options early.
No, Kun the Forgotten King and Aviana are not a problem it is easy to not only ruin their combo with Dirty Rat, in most cases when you play it they insta concede
I like how people assumed i play aggro and i don't want to play tech cards. There are decks where putting tech cards ruins your game like big priest. Getting a dirty rat from barnes or shadow essence just looses you the game.
Lol? Big Priests?
Are we seriously bringing Big Priest as an argument against allegedly broken decks?
Genuinely speaking, Big Priest isn’t in his best shape right now ( middle Tier 2 at best), It’s a killer of a slower decks such as Control Warrior in a meta where Even Shaman and the Aggro decks are prevalent and Star Aligner Druid laughs at your minions as it deals 56 damage everywhere. Combo Druids can buy enough time to cheat death with them, while any good Aggro deck usually kills it by turn 5 due to a lack of good options early.
Where did you take the data about new Wild meta?
My personal experience and experience of people in my friend list. Consistent rank 5 Big Priest player can't hit the rank 5 cause he says that Odd Rogue and Star Aligner Druids are obnoxious. Before complaining about Star Aligner, I played the deck myself in order to see its weaknesses and strenghts and all Big Priests were obliterated by me. Even Shaman is not bad too against them because of the fact that it can highroll early too and has some burst damage. Try the deck on higher ranks and you will see that the it is not Tier 1 worthy.
I feel the need to clarify myself as people have been understanding me wrong. I do not consider kun and aviana op. I think everyone can agree in wild druid is the most popular class. As others have said he has way to many stall and draw options. But all of them enable the combo.
I think it would be easier for blizzard to nerf what all these cards enable rather than nerf a bunch of them. Moddifying 1 of these 2 legendaries is easier and safer that changing 4-5 stall and draw cards as druid has so many i think he could still be tier 1 or 2 without them.
Another problem is design space as blizzard likes to not be too limited in what it can make. Because druid can basicly play 5 minions for 1 mana, creating cards that allow powerful combos is risky as druid can abuse them. Look at star aligner. You need 2 other minions with exact 7 health, which would be impossible to achieve in a normal match, yet druid created an otk out of it. Druid can complete any requirements such cards have but not the other classes. So if another minion with a powerful effect is printed in the future it will have ridiculous requirements that will be hard for druid to complete, and impossible for other classes.
Finally dirty rat is a good counter but it's not enough sometimes. As i said decks like big priest can't run him, there is always the chance of pulling something useless and it is a dead card in a lot of other matchups.
What i want is either nerf the combo itself so druid can still stall the game but he won't have a win condition to stall towards to, or create more counters (preferably not class specific).
Well, "design space" has rarely really been a reason for blizzard to nerf a card in wild. Thus they are either going to nerf the OP cards or they let it be as it is i guess.
And the only card that has >80% winrate when played (beside the combo-pieces itself, which is obvious for an otk-combo) is... oh wonder... Juicy Psychmelon. Just think about it... you play a card on turn 5 on average and already won the game in >80% of cases. That's the definition of OP, isn't it?!
Again, if the combo itself would be weaker the pshychmelon wouldn't be a problem. Raise the mana cost of some pieces, nerf their effects and problem solved.
Protip: Don't play wild. Nerfing cards in wild is pointless because removing one broken thing will just allow another broken thing to dominate and everyone will whine about that instead. Complaining about cards in wild is stupid because standard exists. If you don't like standard or wild then play arena. If that still isn't good enough, form a community that plays with each other and bans certain cards. If that's too much work then I don't know what to tell you. Wild is meant to be the place where broken shit happens, being mad about that seems to miss the entire point of the format you playing in.
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Even now Star Aligner Druid which is close to Tier S struggles a lot against Even Shaman and disrupting cards like Rat. While we all agree that Psychmelon is problematic, nerfing Aviana to 10 would weaken all the Druid decks. Even the Malygos version that currently sees almost 0 play. Set up is already hard enough because you need to not die and not get cucked by Control decks. Real offender is Psychmelon. A more busted UI in Combo decks.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Eventually, I think all Aviana/Kun combo decks should be demoted to lower tiers. There are plenty of other combo decks possible in Wild too, but where are they?
My point is that Aviana/Kun has been around for quite a long time already. When odd paladin, even shaman, odd pirate rogue or even kingsbane rogue have been dominating their deckstyle long enough, I see no reason to not nerf them as well.
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The Combo itself is not the problem. Aviana + Kun is always the same, whatever the combo: basically an OTK.
Now look at Exodia Mage. Still an OTK deck. Yet, why is Combo Druid rampant (pun intended), while Exodia Mage is t4?
A correct and extensive answer (taking into account all the complex variables) will tell us what is the real edge of Combo Druid, and within that edge, what is problematic.
Personally, I think the Armor in Ferocious Howl, Branching Paths, Ultimate Infestation should be converted in Healing, which requires better planning against the curve (instead of current Armor up on curve).
You obviously did not read my comment. I was stating that Wild is too cluttered and that building a deck to tech against one specific problem will not win you many games as a whole.. I'm not sure what your issue is, besides obviously being salty about losing too many games to a deck that you can avoid playing against simply by switching to the Standard format.
I've always thought that Branching Paths' text should have read "Choose Two" not "Choose Twice". That way you're only entitled to gain 6 armor and not 12.. Not saying the card needs a nerf, just saying that the card would have been much more balanced with a Choose Two effect rather than a Choose Twice effect.
how are the combo breaking minions not reliable? OTK Druid runs like 4-8 total minions in their entire deck and it needs most of those minions in their hand the whole time until the combo is ready ; they need each of them (Aviana, Kun, Togwaggle, Azalina for example, losing any of these except Kun (if the Druid also runs Innervates/Biology Project that is) is a massive issue) and just a tiny bit of timing will throw a giant wrench into whatever they're trying to do. so, just time it? you also have to take in count that some matchups you simply lose because they're unfavorable ; this is nothing new and it is a part of Blizzard's design philosophy. for example, Jade, Kazakus and pirates.
we might talk about how Aviana + Kun limits design space, sure, but that's an everpresent problem and that's why Standard exists.
''He traded sands for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand.''
(.o.))~ ~(('o') (.o.))~
There are 3 Tier 2 underdog combo decks that come into my mind which are Anyfin Paladin, OTK Quest Priest and Reno OTK Priest that still can archieve up to 60 dmg. Played all 3 of them. Their huge upside compared to Druid is that they are way less vulnerable to hand/deck disruptions. Majority playing Combo druid just proves that it is more powerfull, but there are certainly other combo decks that are good too.
The Wild is the place that is supposed to be varied and some decks are there for years. Thats how eternal formats naturally evolves. I don't see a reason why some decks should be nerfed because thy were good for too long. We have the whole format for this called Standard and if the same thing happens to Wild, then Blizzard will have another money-milking machine because people will need to buy all the new sets in order to compete in Wild format.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
And you obviously haven't read my comment. My comment basically says that Wild is all that Standard was supposed to be. F2P-friendly, Very well varied, Less problematic in terms of balance and all archetypes have a good decks here. Some matchups are polarising but not to so much compared to Standard ones. There are obviously decks that win over the others. Don't act that your Tier 1 and 2 decks are somehow unique cause they win against various things. We have Tiers there too. And you tell me to abandon all of it for polarising matchups, less deckbuilding options, getting cucked by specific archetype like combo or aggro based on the meta just so I won't play against Star Aligner Druid?
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Omg Wild Players always crying when they know that Wild is purposefully unbalanced.
You have keleseth as your profile pic so this comment is ten times funnier
Honestly I don't believe most of these complaints come from players that stuck to wild since the split, but whiners that drifted in from standard and carried over that personality from standard that if you complain about something that beats you then you won't have to play a counter.
I like how people assumed i play aggro and i don't want to play tech cards. There are decks where putting tech cards ruins your game like big priest. Getting a dirty rat from barnes or shadow essence just looses you the game.
Lol? Big Priests?
Are we seriously bringing Big Priest as an argument against allegedly broken decks?
Genuinely speaking, Big Priest isn’t in his best shape right now ( middle Tier 2 at best), It’s a killer of a slower decks such as Control Warrior in a meta where Even Shaman and the Aggro decks are prevalent and Star Aligner Druid laughs at your minions as it deals 56 damage everywhere. Combo Druids can buy enough time to cheat death with them, while any good Aggro deck usually kills it by turn 5 due to a lack of good options early.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Where did you take the data about new Wild meta?
No, Kun the Forgotten King and Aviana are not a problem it is easy to not only ruin their combo with Dirty Rat, in most cases when you play it they insta concede
you can also burn some cards for them
My personal experience and experience of people in my friend list. Consistent rank 5 Big Priest player can't hit the rank 5 cause he says that Odd Rogue and Star Aligner Druids are obnoxious. Before complaining about Star Aligner, I played the deck myself in order to see its weaknesses and strenghts and all Big Priests were obliterated by me. Even Shaman is not bad too against them because of the fact that it can highroll early too and has some burst damage. Try the deck on higher ranks and you will see that the it is not Tier 1 worthy.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
I feel the need to clarify myself as people have been understanding me wrong. I do not consider kun and aviana op. I think everyone can agree in wild druid is the most popular class. As others have said he has way to many stall and draw options. But all of them enable the combo.
I think it would be easier for blizzard to nerf what all these cards enable rather than nerf a bunch of them. Moddifying 1 of these 2 legendaries is easier and safer that changing 4-5 stall and draw cards as druid has so many i think he could still be tier 1 or 2 without them.
Another problem is design space as blizzard likes to not be too limited in what it can make. Because druid can basicly play 5 minions for 1 mana, creating cards that allow powerful combos is risky as druid can abuse them. Look at star aligner. You need 2 other minions with exact 7 health, which would be impossible to achieve in a normal match, yet druid created an otk out of it. Druid can complete any requirements such cards have but not the other classes. So if another minion with a powerful effect is printed in the future it will have ridiculous requirements that will be hard for druid to complete, and impossible for other classes.
Finally dirty rat is a good counter but it's not enough sometimes. As i said decks like big priest can't run him, there is always the chance of pulling something useless and it is a dead card in a lot of other matchups.
What i want is either nerf the combo itself so druid can still stall the game but he won't have a win condition to stall towards to, or create more counters (preferably not class specific).
Again, if the combo itself would be weaker the pshychmelon wouldn't be a problem. Raise the mana cost of some pieces, nerf their effects and problem solved.
Protip: Don't play wild. Nerfing cards in wild is pointless because removing one broken thing will just allow another broken thing to dominate and everyone will whine about that instead. Complaining about cards in wild is stupid because standard exists. If you don't like standard or wild then play arena. If that still isn't good enough, form a community that plays with each other and bans certain cards. If that's too much work then I don't know what to tell you. Wild is meant to be the place where broken shit happens, being mad about that seems to miss the entire point of the format you playing in.