If you play a physical cardgame, as a new player you don't have all cards available, even if you spend a lot of money. Every player is literally forced to at least build his own deck at the beginning. The mentality of the mass is completly different in HS vs. other TCG's. You have a list of all cards in the game, even the cards that you don't own. A lot of people are streaming on twitch, the is more going on online in general.
I played Yu-Gi-Oh for many many years and EVERYONE tried to build decks and getting better at it - no one ever had the idea of copying decks. In Hearthstone people aren't even thinking about building decks, because the community lives a different "lifestyle".
I think the actual issues are: - People want to be "competitive" in a game that isnt really competitive (my opinion). Even tho we have a competitive scene and tournaments, the fundament is a "simple, fun and interactive game for casuals". There are many RNG cards to get Winrates down to 50%. Lifecoach quit because he realized that after visiting Blizz HQ. I personally don't have a problem with that, but I think this "illusion" creates a dissonance within the community. People are tryharding on the ladder, which is unhealthy for the game. Instead people should play and try things for fun and get good winrates as side product. Good examples of this are Kibler and Toast.
- Release Schedule: They only release a expansion every 4 months - and Blizz say they are happy with that. I think it's horrible. They should SPLIT every pack into 2-3 subpacks. Same amount of cards to design, same amount of money for us to spend, but the game would completly change. Permanent changes, permanently new experiences. Id would create the enviroment that blizzard actually wants.
Of course people would still netdeck, but it would be different in my opinion. Netdecking itself isn't the problem. The combination of problems make netdecking a real troublemaker.
EDIT: Are you interested in a 50-100 page indepth deckbuilding guide (that explains a little bit more than "you need t solid mana curve" bla bla)? And if yes, where do you think is the best platform to post this?
First of all, its not baku) Its wild dmh fatigue warrior. And for sure we have plently of options to build it different way, but as time will pass i will make changes and get closer to typicall netdeck. And same for other classes. Playing deck worse than pros version is just stupid for me. I dont have time to test all cards that can take place, but in the end i will make similar deck. Because good cards dont have alternatives yet. Tech choices for current meta dont matter, it wll not make deck less netdecked
I don't think it matters whether you netdeck or not. If you are someone who builds and tests decks and never looks for netdecks, your deck will tend toward an existing netdeck whether you know it or not as you optimize it. It is very rare in a game with such a limited amount of quality cards to come up with a truly original/non-obvious idea.
I do think it is lazy to just go to hsreplay, sort by winrate and pick the highest deck just because it is successful. Learning to adapt your deck is an important skill to have and if you can only copy and can't think for yourself, you won't have long term success. The thing is though that the most successful deck have very little room for adaptation, maybe a few flex spots and generally the choices for each tech option are obvious (i.e. spellbreaker for silence, ooze or harrison for weapons...). So we are in a spot where the people who can adapt and those who can't are roughly on the same level, which is not ideal.
The bottom line is there isn't anything noble about playing a deck you know is bad just so you aren't labeled a netdecker. The problem is in the cards, not the generally uncreative playerbase.
It is a really big problem for me since it simplifies the process of deck creation and all the tought process based arround it. Players don't try to think about synergies and complex Hearthstone mechanisms, and simply copy / paste and play a netdeck unti they possibly master it. What's more, it encourages players to buy packs to "construct" a specific deck, instead of playing with the cards they have and trying to progressively build it or replace cards with others...
Idk wtf you are talking about but netdecking is very real in Yu-gi-oh and other cardgames. Stop spreading BS please. I've been playing a lot of other cardgames over Hearthstone lately and if you think there's no netdecking or not as much as in Hearthstone then you're 100% wrong.
The issue is, the best decks are found so quickly that experimentation produces little reward. The internet means it only takes a few days to begin to stabilize, but this is also good because then you know what to play.
The issue is, the best decks are found so quickly that experimentation produces little reward. The internet means it only takes a few days to begin to stabilize, but this is also good because then you know what to play.
And then everyone plays the same BS and there is no fun, just grind without creativity in ladder ...
Idk wtf you are talking about but netdecking is very real in Yu-gi-oh and other cardgames. Stop spreading BS please. I've been playing a lot of other cardgames over Hearthstone lately and if you think there's no netdecking or not as much as in Hearthstone then you're 100% wrong.
Yes I agree that there is netdecking is a thing in every TCG, but still the attitude of the playerbase, especially in a competitive enviroment is different. Don't forget that in HS you have Decktrackers and a lot of almost Realtime Data that helps to analyze everything quicker. What I tried to say is that the mentality and the way of approaching the game is different and slower in RL Cardgames (even if those games are played digitally).
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"It's me, the guy she told y'a not to worry about." (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧
I've played quite a few CCGs both online and offline, and Hearthstone has the worst netdecking problem of any game other than maybe Gwent. I haven't played MTG much for many years, but I used to be able to play 20 games against 20 people and never see the same deck twice.
OCGs are very different from TCGs. In the physical formats because of such situations like limited printing etc. people do not have access to a certain number of cards. As a result people have to work harder to come up with viable decks and archetypes. In OCGs where you can have access to every single card if you try hard enough, there is no incentive to actually try and make your own viable and competitive deck.
Taking all this into consideration a long with the fact that a good fraction of people cannot deckbuild either because of time or because they lack the fundamentals then you essentially create a breeding ground for people to netdeck.
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Experienced Deckbuilder, Legend Player, Wild Expert, TCG Veteran and Contributing Author toWildHS & Vicious Syndicate. Any and all support is greatly appreciated as it helps me make further quality content. 🐺 ➣Twitter ➣Decks ➣Patreon
It's 2018 and I don't think that useful information should be easily accessible. We should go to brick and mortar libraries, people who use the internet to find information are lazy and not really playing the game in a way that I approve of. I work extra hard to find something that's easily findable, therefore my enjoyment and perspective are more valid than yours. I spend my effort building nonviable decks and forcing bad archetypes and this is the best possible use of my limited hearthstone playing time.
Would the game be better if netdecking was somehow not doable? Yes.
Am I going to do it if it is possible if other people do too? Yes.
The game would be objectively better if it had an extra layer of skill which was about creating decks. But that's just not possible beyond the first few days of an expansion in the way Hearthstone is designed. The remaining options are to either play HS casually, or just enjoy it for it's other layer of competition(that is, actually knowing how to pilot the decks).
That being said, people who choose to stay at rank 14 and play "homebrew decks" all the time should get out of their high horses. You choose your way to play the game, other people choose theirs.
OCGs are very different from TCGs. In the physical formats because of such situations like limited printing etc. people do not have access to a certain number of cards. As a result people have to work harder to come up with viable decks and archetypes. In OCGs where you can have access to every single card if you try hard enough, there is no incentive to actually try and make your own viable and competitive deck.
Taking all this into consideration a long with the fact that a good fraction of people cannot deckbuild either because of time or because they lack the fundamentals then you essentially create a breeding ground for people to netdeck.
Netdecking is what keeps this game alive and competetive. It's not a problem in my opinion, it's unavoidable, good and necessary.
I wish there was another non-arena gamemode which encouraged more creativity and was less predictable though.
I'm not sure how you can claim netdecking is "good". I mean I do it myself when I'm actually trying to climb ladder(for the most part), but there is no doubt in my mind that this game would be way more interesting at both the pro and casual level if you added a creative layer to it.
To me, telling people "they shouldn't netdeck" is akin to coaches telling other football teams not to turtle up and use an overly defensive style. If a playstyle is not pretty but it happens to be the most effective, people will exploit it at the higher levels of play. That's just how it is. and if you want to play any given game or sport at a somewhat competitive level you need to come to terms with that. But it doesn't change the fact that the game would be better if said exploit wasn't available in the first place.
In the case of hearthstone though, I 100% agree that there is no easy solution to the problem, and people who still choose to play the game in even a halfway serious manner should just learn to cope with it, or rather, should have already done so.
I net deck sometimes, but usually when I do it is a function of saving myself time. I don’t have a ton of time to play Hearthstone, so when I do play, I’ll look at decks on the internet and find one that looks like I will enjoy it. I very rarely will choose the most top tier decks, but I just don’t have time to build decks from scratch then play them enough to tune it successfully. A lot of the time I decide I want to play a certain class or a certain theme. I’ll then search for decks online that meet those criteria and choose one to play. So while yes, I do net deck, I don’t do it out of a sense of needing to play the absolute best deck to crush everyone and win all the time. I think it is important to understand players net deck for different reasons, not all of which are negative.
To reduce or even prevent netdecking is simply impossible because of
various lists and guides on community sites (which is to be expected since pretty much all decks build around a specific core of cards anyway)
30 card max + 2-of restriction per deck
10g per 3 wins rewarding fast games with refined (aggro) decks over long matches between homebrews
and most of all, your very own collection. Remember that most people don't have access to the majority of cards and therefore are unwilling to spend their limited supply of resources on wacky, expensive decks. Don't get me wrong though, I love to meme around with off-meta but nowadays even those require a huge chunk of dust which most people probably refuse to spend just for fun.
It's 2018 and I don't think that useful information should be easily accessible. We should go to brick and mortar libraries, people who use the internet to find information are lazy and not really playing the game in a way that I approve of. I work extra hard to find something that's easily findable, therefore my enjoyment and perspective are more valid than yours. I spend my effort building nonviable decks and forcing bad archetypes and this is the best possible use of my limited hearthstone playing time.
Don't get me wrong, Netdecking is fine but is stale as hell seeing the same four decks on ladder.
I am not asking people to stop net decking, I don't have a problem with it at all actually, it would just be nice to have variance on ladder
Agreed. We could have fifty decks on the ladder, but we have like 5 because nobody has any imagination.
Thats why wild is better haha :P but even there you have top decks and very few home made decks..i never netdeck.. Because i am very happy when my deck is good enough to pass rank 5, 4, 3 etc... I can tell that im good renolock builder :)
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If you play a physical cardgame, as a new player you don't have all cards available, even if you spend a lot of money. Every player is literally forced to at least build his own deck at the beginning. The mentality of the mass is completly different in HS vs. other TCG's. You have a list of all cards in the game, even the cards that you don't own. A lot of people are streaming on twitch, the is more going on online in general.
I played Yu-Gi-Oh for many many years and EVERYONE tried to build decks and getting better at it - no one ever had the idea of copying decks. In Hearthstone people aren't even thinking about building decks, because the community lives a different "lifestyle".
I think the actual issues are:
- People want to be "competitive" in a game that isnt really competitive (my opinion). Even tho we have a competitive scene and tournaments, the fundament is a "simple, fun and interactive game for casuals". There are many RNG cards to get Winrates down to 50%. Lifecoach quit because he realized that after visiting Blizz HQ. I personally don't have a problem with that, but I think this "illusion" creates a dissonance within the community. People are tryharding on the ladder, which is unhealthy for the game. Instead people should play and try things for fun and get good winrates as side product. Good examples of this are Kibler and Toast.
- Release Schedule: They only release a expansion every 4 months - and Blizz say they are happy with that. I think it's horrible.
They should SPLIT every pack into 2-3 subpacks. Same amount of cards to design, same amount of money for us to spend, but the game would completly change. Permanent changes, permanently new experiences. Id would create the enviroment that blizzard actually wants.
Of course people would still netdeck, but it would be different in my opinion. Netdecking itself isn't the problem. The combination of problems make netdecking a real troublemaker.
EDIT: Are you interested in a 50-100 page indepth deckbuilding guide (that explains a little bit more than "you need t solid mana curve" bla bla)? And if yes, where do you think is the best platform to post this?
"It's me, the guy she told y'a not to worry about." (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧
First of all, its not baku) Its wild dmh fatigue warrior. And for sure we have plently of options to build it different way, but as time will pass i will make changes and get closer to typicall netdeck. And same for other classes. Playing deck worse than pros version is just stupid for me. I dont have time to test all cards that can take place, but in the end i will make similar deck. Because good cards dont have alternatives yet. Tech choices for current meta dont matter, it wll not make deck less netdecked
I don't think it matters whether you netdeck or not. If you are someone who builds and tests decks and never looks for netdecks, your deck will tend toward an existing netdeck whether you know it or not as you optimize it. It is very rare in a game with such a limited amount of quality cards to come up with a truly original/non-obvious idea.
I do think it is lazy to just go to hsreplay, sort by winrate and pick the highest deck just because it is successful. Learning to adapt your deck is an important skill to have and if you can only copy and can't think for yourself, you won't have long term success. The thing is though that the most successful deck have very little room for adaptation, maybe a few flex spots and generally the choices for each tech option are obvious (i.e. spellbreaker for silence, ooze or harrison for weapons...). So we are in a spot where the people who can adapt and those who can't are roughly on the same level, which is not ideal.
The bottom line is there isn't anything noble about playing a deck you know is bad just so you aren't labeled a netdecker. The problem is in the cards, not the generally uncreative playerbase.
It is a really big problem for me since it simplifies the process of deck creation and all the tought process based arround it. Players don't try to think about synergies and complex Hearthstone mechanisms, and simply copy / paste and play a netdeck unti they possibly master it. What's more, it encourages players to buy packs to "construct" a specific deck, instead of playing with the cards they have and trying to progressively build it or replace cards with others...
Idk wtf you are talking about but netdecking is very real in Yu-gi-oh and other cardgames. Stop spreading BS please. I've been playing a lot of other cardgames over Hearthstone lately and if you think there's no netdecking or not as much as in Hearthstone then you're 100% wrong.
The issue is, the best decks are found so quickly that experimentation produces little reward. The internet means it only takes a few days to begin to stabilize, but this is also good because then you know what to play.
"It's me, the guy she told y'a not to worry about." (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧
I've played quite a few CCGs both online and offline, and Hearthstone has the worst netdecking problem of any game other than maybe Gwent. I haven't played MTG much for many years, but I used to be able to play 20 games against 20 people and never see the same deck twice.
OCGs are very different from TCGs. In the physical formats because of such situations like limited printing etc. people do not have access to a certain number of cards. As a result people have to work harder to come up with viable decks and archetypes. In OCGs where you can have access to every single card if you try hard enough, there is no incentive to actually try and make your own viable and competitive deck.
Taking all this into consideration a long with the fact that a good fraction of people cannot deckbuild either because of time or because they lack the fundamentals then you essentially create a breeding ground for people to netdeck.
It's 2018 and I don't think that useful information should be easily accessible. We should go to brick and mortar libraries, people who use the internet to find information are lazy and not really playing the game in a way that I approve of. I work extra hard to find something that's easily findable, therefore my enjoyment and perspective are more valid than yours. I spend my effort building nonviable decks and forcing bad archetypes and this is the best possible use of my limited hearthstone playing time.
Would the game be better if netdecking was somehow not doable? Yes.
Am I going to do it if it is possible if other people do too? Yes.
The game would be objectively better if it had an extra layer of skill which was about creating decks. But that's just not possible beyond the first few days of an expansion in the way Hearthstone is designed. The remaining options are to either play HS casually, or just enjoy it for it's other layer of competition(that is, actually knowing how to pilot the decks).
That being said, people who choose to stay at rank 14 and play "homebrew decks" all the time should get out of their high horses. You choose your way to play the game, other people choose theirs.
Netdecking is what keeps this game alive and competetive. It's not a problem in my opinion, it's unavoidable, good and necessary.
I wish there was another non-arena gamemode which encouraged more creativity and was less predictable though.
I net deck sometimes, but usually when I do it is a function of saving myself time. I don’t have a ton of time to play Hearthstone, so when I do play, I’ll look at decks on the internet and find one that looks like I will enjoy it. I very rarely will choose the most top tier decks, but I just don’t have time to build decks from scratch then play them enough to tune it successfully. A lot of the time I decide I want to play a certain class or a certain theme. I’ll then search for decks online that meet those criteria and choose one to play. So while yes, I do net deck, I don’t do it out of a sense of needing to play the absolute best deck to crush everyone and win all the time. I think it is important to understand players net deck for different reasons, not all of which are negative.
To reduce or even prevent netdecking is simply impossible because of
various lists and guides on community sites (which is to be expected since pretty much all decks build around a specific core of cards anyway)
30 card max + 2-of restriction per deck
10g per 3 wins rewarding fast games with refined (aggro) decks over long matches between homebrews
and most of all, your very own collection. Remember that most people don't have access to the majority of cards and therefore are unwilling to spend their limited supply of resources on wacky, expensive decks. Don't get me wrong though, I love to meme around with off-meta but nowadays even those require a huge chunk of dust which most people probably refuse to spend just for fun.
Agreed. We could have fifty decks on the ladder, but we have like 5 because nobody has any imagination.