4. Reno decks are highly favoured against Big Priest
I've played whole june season with a Renolock, Big Priest is my worst matchup. 'd be glad to here your secret tech to counter this. And if your answer is Bran + Kazakus + double Sheep Potion... well that's unlikely - and that's an understatement.
Thanks for your answer, I'm very curious about it.
Hi)
Don't worry, my answer is not going to be Kazakus potions only. Lets look at all five viable or semiviable Reno decks at this point: Kabal Classes(Mage,Priest,Warlock), Hunter and Shaman. Lets start with the Hero cards: 4 out of 5 hero cards are really impactfull in these decks with only Hagatha being a value RNG machine. Guldan: N'Zoth like effect with Lifesteal Darkbomb as a Hero Power? Really impactfull. Jaina: Infinite heal in theory and potentiall to spawn elemental every turn? Reallly impactfull. Anduin: Wipe everything except Barnes and Statue and then ping for 1 mana with repeatable Hero Power? Really impactfull. Rexxar: Craft any abomination you want to make some impact on the game? You've guessed it right: really impactfull :D. Even Hagatha with some Devolve or Hex is really impactfull but let's do not take this into consideration because it is too rng based.
What Powerfull things are they doing?
Warlock: Brann+Kazakus+Zola, Brann+Gnomeferatu+Zola, N'Zoth, Guldan, Sylvannas+Shadowflame, Twisting Neither, you can put Baleful Banker somewhere there too. Guldan's Hero Power is pretty good, Removal is not so bad.
Mage: Brann+Kazakus+Manic Soulcaster/Balfeul Banker/Zola. Jaina turn. Sometimes N'Zoth turn, Polymorph effects like Potion of Polymorph and Polymorph are must have, Polymorph: Boar is more like a tech card. Heavy Spell version with Medivh and such are more powerfull that with N'Zoth. Ragnaros and sometimes even Baron Geddon are really good. Iceblock so you don't have to worry about being killed (and not a single Big Priest is running tech against Secrets)
Priest: Brann+Kazakus+Zola/Banker, Shadowreaper Anduin, N'Zoth, Benedictus, Psychic Scream, Lightbomb, Entomb. Potion of Madness for Barnes turn. best removals in a Control vs Control matchup.
Hunter: Rexxar lab where he is crafting Zombeasts, N'Zoth, Deathrattle shenaniggans with Sylvannas,Cube,Feign Death and Play Death
Shaman: Hex, Devolve (and a possibility that you will find mopre of them thanks to Hagatha), The almighty Shudderwock turn with Battlecries like Loatheb,MC Tech,Reno,Medivh,Elise,Coldlight,Hagatha,Primorial Drake,Chain Gang,Zola,Banker,Grumble and so on and on or just infinite C'Thuns too)
And all of them have Reno so they can heal to 30. So the conclusion is: If you won't play Reno decks badly, they are the one that can take down ANY deck (even a combo ones when you have Rats,Coldlights and such). For example make their Spellstones and Psychic Scream really shitty by waiting for him playing Spellstone, and then pay N'Zoth or just fill your board. Every Reno class except Hunter have some transforming or banishing from graveyard effect. All of the 5 Reno decks are really hard to exhaust while Big Priest have no value generators( except maybe Ysera, Lich King is more board impactfull card). Then as someone have mentioned, you can add some tech like Doomsayer+Treachery, Polymorph Boar, hell even some greedy tech like MC Tech or Vaporize is sometimes good. My winrate against Big Priest with all Reno decks is higher than 50% and thats just only because im planning a little ahead and I get rewarded for it.
4. Reno decks are highly favoured against Big Priest
I've played whole june season with a Renolock, Big Priest is my worst matchup. 'd be glad to here your secret tech to counter this. And if your answer is Bran + Kazakus + double Sheep Potion... well that's unlikely - and that's an understatement.
Thanks for your answer, I'm very curious about it.
Hi)
Don't worry, my answer is not going to be Kazakus potions only. Lets look at all five viable or semiviable Reno decks at this point: Kabal Classes(Mage,Priest,Warlock), Hunter and Shaman. Lets start with the Hero cards: 4 out of 5 hero cards are really impactfull in these decks with only Hagatha being a value RNG machine. Guldan: N'Zoth like effect with Lifesteal Darkbomb as a Hero Power? Really impactfull. Jaina: Infinite heal in theory and potentiall to spawn elemental every turn? Reallly impactfull. Anduin: Wipe everything except Barnes and Statue and then ping for 1 mana with repeatable Hero Power? Really impactfull. Rexxar: Craft any abomination you want to make some impact on the game? You've guessed it right: really impactfull :D. Even Hagatha with some Devolve or Hex is really impactfull but let's do not take this into consideration because it is too rng based.
What Powerfull things are they doing?
I don't think anyone doubts Renodecks can keep up with Big Priest once they made it to the late game. The problem is Big Priest can simply run away with the game early if you can't beat his resurrection chain, before you can realistically piece any of these combinations together.
Most of the games Big Priest loses is the deck beats itself with Shadow Essence into Barnes or by not finding any of their cheat stuff into the game effects at all.
I don't think anyone doubts Renodecks can keep up with Big Priest once they made it to the late game. The problem is Big Priest can simply run away with the game early if you can't beat his resurrection chain, before you can realistically piece any of these combinations together.
Most of the games Big Priest loses is the deck beats itself with Shadow Essence into Barnes or by not finding any of their cheat stuff into the game effects at all.
It's not unbeatable, it's unfun to play against.
You are right at some point but there still can be few counter-points made. 1. It's not like Reno decks are doing nothing in first few turns. They are usually drawing cards or setting up a small board in case of Hunter. Playing Coldlight in Reno deck seems like a reasonable choice because it draws cards for you and can potentially burn cards for your opponent.(Big Priest is perfect example of that because they don't play a lot of cards and their handsize is ofte 7+ cards.)
2. You can't determine what is unfun to play against. Different strokes for different folks. For example I find unfun to play against Aluneth Mage because in my opinion that deck requires less thinking than Pirate Warrior nowadays cause they relly on drawing Aluneth on curve. Some people think that Reno as a card is disgusting. Some people despise Kinsbane. Some people despise Jade. With that logic why don't we nerf all the "unfun" card and play with Chillwind Yeti's nerfed to 4 mana 2/3 because 4/5 stats are too unfun?
If Barnes was to be nerfed, the simplest nerf is the best. Make it cost 5 mana.
Now as to /whether/ it should be nerfed, that’s a different story. I play renolock and the game really comes down to the following: I can win IF they don’t play Barnes on curve AND I play Kazakus on curve AND I get the polymorph option. If I don’t get those, the chance I can win is like 10%. I’m not sure how people are saying Reno decks do good against Rez priest, they simply out value you.
The whole argument most people are trying to make is the deck isn't fun to play against it's not unbeatable no deck could ever hold that title, that's the way card games are. What a lot of people are arguing is it is unfun to play against when Priest has so many cheap spells to return minions that died from Barnes or Shadow Essence. Barnes himself honestly isn't broken he's just broken with all the synergy Priest has. I still stand by that if they want to resurrect something from Barnes it should come back as a 1/1 not a full stated minion that way it doesn't actually nerf Barnes in any way.
Yes it's true decks can have tech cards for Big Priest but in a singleton deck how often are you going to draw these cards? Even in a non-singleton deck how often will you draw a 1 of for tech against Priest? I'd wager to say not often even if you hard mulligan for it you could lose valuable cards for late game doing that. A lot of decks can keep up with them late game but as previously stated they can run away with the early game very easily with T3/T4 Barnes into resurrect crap which is not enjoyable for a lot of players. How do your tech cards prevent those situations? What if you don't draw Hex or Polymorph before turn T4 when they've done Barnes and have a way of killing it on board? You bring up all these cute tech cards yet doesn't change a thing if you don't draw it. If you don't draw an answer it's very easy for them to take away the game.
All that said though I've actually been playing Big Rogue and I seem to be able to get far more minions into play then them at times makes for some funny matchups. I feel bad for every other class that gets brutalized by Priest though.
The whole argument most people are trying to make is the deck isn't fun to play against it's not unbeatable no deck could ever hold that title, that's the way card games are. What a lot of people are arguing is it is unfun to play against when Priest has so many cheap spells to return minions that died from Barnes or Shadow Essence. Barnes himself honestly isn't broken he's just broken with all the synergy Priest has. I still stand by that if they want to resurrect something from Barnes it should come back as a 1/1 not a full stated minion that way it doesn't actually nerf Barnes in any way.
Yes it's true decks can have tech cards for Big Priest but in a singleton deck how often are you going to draw these cards? Even in a non-singleton deck how often will you draw a 1 of for tech against Priest? I'd wager to say not often even if you hard mulligan for it you could lose valuable cards for late game doing that. A lot of decks can keep up with them late game but as previously stated they can run away with the early game very easily with T3/T4 Barnes into resurrect crap which is not enjoyable for a lot of players. How do your tech cards prevent those situations? What if you don't draw Hex or Polymorph before turn T4 when they've done Barnes and have a way of killing it on board? You bring up all these cute tech cards yet doesn't change a thing if you don't draw it. If you don't draw an answer it's very easy for them to take away the game.
All that said though I've actually been playing Big Rogue and I seem to be able to get far more minions into play then them at times makes for some funny matchups. I feel bad for every other class that gets brutalized by Priest though.
This is actually my point.
The change proposed to Barnes would not affect Malygos combo decks. It would not affect Big Rogue. It would not affect rattlebased decks. Hell, it would even keep the Y'Shaarj synergy. It's just to fix the anomaly of having to deal with the huge bodies starting from turn 4/5. As a matter of fact, Big Priest could cut Barnes from the list after a change like that and with some changes still being a good deck (Having Shadow Essence not fucking up anymore summoning Barnes)
Possessed Lackey was nerfed for much much less.
Against the "argument" of Who cares is Wild. There is so much money that can be milked out of the Wild format, if you think that Blizzard will ignore taking care of it you are deluded. Wait until it will be possible to purchase Wild packs. Because they will get there, no doubts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember playing Control Shaman with Reincarnate shenanigans? No? It was fun, here's a refresher!
Against the "argument" of Who cares is Wild. There is so much money that can be milked out of the Wild format, if you think that Blizzard will ignore taking care of it you are deluded. Wait until it will be possible to purchase Wild packs. Because they will get there, no doubts.
Blizzard made the purchasing wild packs previously, available for a short amount of time.
"There is so much money that can be milked out of the wild format". Really? If that's the case, then why haven't they done so already? I'll tell you why, because they want newer players to be able to get into the game and not have to backtrack years worth of packs and cards. If a newer player wants to participate in wild because all of the sudden its all very accessible again on a wide scale, but can't because there's just too much to catch up on, they will eventually quit because it's overwhelming and advantageous to those who have been here longer.
Also, if they make wild packs permanently purchasable, but don't hold any actual prize tournaments, then you're just buying packs for nothing. To climb up wild ladder? K. Cool. Could most likely climb up wild ladder with standard format expansion decks and not waste money on wild expansions.
The whole argument most people are trying to make is the deck isn't fun to play against it's not unbeatable no deck could ever hold that title, that's the way card games are. What a lot of people are arguing is it is unfun to play against when Priest has so many cheap spells to return minions that died from Barnes or Shadow Essence. Barnes himself honestly isn't broken he's just broken with all the synergy Priest has. I still stand by that if they want to resurrect something from Barnes it should come back as a 1/1 not a full stated minion that way it doesn't actually nerf Barnes in any way.
Yes it's true decks can have tech cards for Big Priest but in a singleton deck how often are you going to draw these cards? Even in a non-singleton deck how often will you draw a 1 of for tech against Priest? I'd wager to say not often even if you hard mulligan for it you could lose valuable cards for late game doing that. A lot of decks can keep up with them late game but as previously stated they can run away with the early game very easily with T3/T4 Barnes into resurrect crap which is not enjoyable for a lot of players. How do your tech cards prevent those situations? What if you don't draw Hex or Polymorph before turn T4 when they've done Barnes and have a way of killing it on board? You bring up all these cute tech cards yet doesn't change a thing if you don't draw it. If you don't draw an answer it's very easy for them to take away the game.
All that said though I've actually been playing Big Rogue and I seem to be able to get far more minions into play then them at times makes for some funny matchups. I feel bad for every other class that gets brutalized by Priest though.
This is actually my point.
The change proposed to Barnes would not affect Malygos combo decks. It would not affect Big Rogue. It would not affect rattlebased decks. Hell, it would even keep the Y'Shaarj synergy. It's just to fix the anomaly of having to deal with the huge bodies starting from turn 4/5. As a matter of fact, Big Priest could cut Barnes from the list after a change like that and with some changes still being a good deck (Having Shadow Essence not fucking up anymore summoning Barnes)
Possessed Lackey was nerfed for much much less.
Against the "argument" of Who cares is Wild. There is so much money that can be milked out of the Wild format, if you think that Blizzard will ignore taking care of it you are deluded. Wait until it will be possible to purchase Wild packs. Because they will get there, no doubts.
You're already able to buy wild packs on the website store no?
Oh look this thread again. While we're at it, nerf Kingsbane and aggro in general because it counters me when I play big Priest. Pls nerf Dirty Rat and Deathlord, it messes up my combo Druid :(
Big priest is not a problem, many decks counter it, I played it this month and it's nowhere near as good as people think it is, I can count at least 2 meta decks for every class that can easily beat it with smart plays. Most of the time you rely on Shadow Essence because the chance of drawing Barnes in the first 4 turns is extremely slim. I wouldn't even give a shit if Barnes gets nerfed because the deck would remain absolutely the same.
Just played big priest after reading this. Only 4 games, did not pull barnes except half way through my first game. Lots of salt here.
Just like you said if you don't get barnes early in the game you lose but if you do and your opponent doesn't have a counter you win for this reason big priest isn't fun for both players since it's just blind luck and everyone is discussing for a way to fix it but your comment is salt xdxdx. Whenever there is a discussion about a card everyone says salty without reading the comments
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i play cubelock and lose 5 games in a row then i play odd paladin and get my stars back wash rinse repeat
everyone is discussing for a way to fix it but your comment is salt xdxdx. Whenever there is a discussion about a card everyone says salty without reading the comments
This is a really stupid point that you are trying to make here. I made a pretty valid points why I'm against it and even reply constructively to the others yet the only feedback that I'm getting in return is: It'S UnFuN tO PlaY AGainst. And that's not only the my case. Others like Lyra made also a few good points but they are ignored or being told to calm down.
We also made good points about highroll + powerlevel of Barnes within Priest, but were also ignored saying that we are just arguing about feeling, that there are counters and that we should be smart enough to play them.
Apex is people calling for salt against Big Priest, after having played 4 games and not having read one single post of the topic.
Let me also remind how people were deeming NSW as perfectly fine based on winrate and meta counters. Yet it was nerfed: not on the basis of winrate or meta counters, and neither of popularity.
PS: nobody here wants to kill Big Priest, and Barnes neither, actually. Just a re-vision that correctly and consistently sets Big Priest in a precise archetype and curve (Cubelock style).
Uh oh... It's that time of the year again, someone wrote properly and negatively about a mistake of a card. Quick! Protect your archetypes!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
The whole argument most people are trying to make is the deck isn't fun to play against it's not unbeatable no deck could ever hold that title, that's the way card games are. What a lot of people are arguing is it is unfun to play against when Priest has so many cheap spells to return minions that died from Barnes or Shadow Essence. Barnes himself honestly isn't broken he's just broken with all the synergy Priest has. I still stand by that if they want to resurrect something from Barnes it should come back as a 1/1 not a full stated minion that way it doesn't actually nerf Barnes in any way.
Yes it's true decks can have tech cards for Big Priest but in a singleton deck how often are you going to draw these cards? Even in a non-singleton deck how often will you draw a 1 of for tech against Priest? I'd wager to say not often even if you hard mulligan for it you could lose valuable cards for late game doing that. A lot of decks can keep up with them late game but as previously stated they can run away with the early game very easily with T3/T4 Barnes into resurrect crap which is not enjoyable for a lot of players. How do your tech cards prevent those situations? What if you don't draw Hex or Polymorph before turn T4 when they've done Barnes and have a way of killing it on board? You bring up all these cute tech cards yet doesn't change a thing if you don't draw it. If you don't draw an answer it's very easy for them to take away the game.
All that said though I've actually been playing Big Rogue and I seem to be able to get far more minions into play then them at times makes for some funny matchups. I feel bad for every other class that gets brutalized by Priest though.
As FirePalyHSplayer has already mentioned it isn't a strong point to say it isn't fun to play against. That is just one portion of the community's feelings about the deck. Plenty of players find the deck fun and/or find decks that are different from Big Priest that they find unfun to play against. Would it make much sense if I just started complaining about random decks that ticked me off and labeled them all as un-fun to play against in the hopes that they all get nerfed?
A singleton deck may have a lower chance of drawing into answers to an early Barnes, but the chance that a Big Priest player draws the one copy of Barnes in their deck to highroll on turn 3/4 is even lower. My Reno Mage is twice as likely to draw into Polymorph or Polymorph Boar than a Big Priest is likely to draw into Barnes. People seem to focus on all of the games when that highroll does happen and seem to make this illogical jump that most Big Priests get that highroll on turn 3/4, despite statistics being against them and stating the impossibility of that happening most games. In reality most games against Big Priest pit you up against a big minion on turn 5/6, not 3/4. Drawing into one of a double sap, hex/devolve, polymorph, or even Tinkmaster tech is much more manageable to draw into by turn 5/6 than the dream 3/4 highroll people keep mentioning.
The problem with that data is that it is very generalize
this is a much better set then the data that is filtered down to a point that it doesn't represent anything but your view on the mater
the problem is the deck is oppressive to the decks that a lot of people want to play, and its win rate is pretty crazy
For the purpose of this discussion though we don't care about the win rates of Big Priest against decks that don't counter it. All that matters for the purpose of this discussion is if counter decks effectively counter it. Having a wide set of data full of information about decks that are not counters do nothing but detract from the data set of the counter decks.
I am going to make the assumption that you're referring to Big Priest discouraging as many control decks from being played in wild? If that is the case I hate to tell you, but there are two other decks that hard counter many control decks, Jade Druid and Kingsbane Rogue. While both of these can be countered (particularly Jade Druid after double Nourish and double UI are gone) they serve a high possibility of filling the gap left behind by Big Priest if it were nerfed to oblivion. Killing Big Priest honestly would do very little in the way of allowing people to play these random decks they want to be playing. In the end a deck would be nerfed or even killed for nothing to change in the end.
We also made good points about highroll + powerlevel of Barnes within Priest, but were also ignored saying that we are just arguing about feeling, that there are counters and that we should be smart enough to play them.
Apex is people calling for salt against Big Priest, after having played 4 games and not having read one single post of the topic.
Let me also remind how people were deeming NSW as perfectly fine based on winrate and meta counters. Yet it was nerfed: not on the basis of winrate or meta counters, and neither of popularity.
PS: nobody here wants to kill Big Priest, and Barnes neither, actually. Just a re-vision that correctly and consistently sets Big Priest in a precise archetype and curve (Cubelock style).
I agree with you. I was just upset a little bit about fikart's logic. It's obviously bad from other people to not post anything constructive and say only: Lol. Salt. and stufflike that. That's why I don't make posts like this a lot and I'm talking about something based on my CCG experience and expereience with the deck. Btw I actually really like points what you've made and I'm curious what is Lyra going to answer so that's why I'm not joining in into discussion between you two. :D
Also about Naga nerf. Naga was nerfed because the Wild Reddit got blown up by this and that is one of the reasons. However, the Giant decks were more consistent due to the fact that Naga is epic card so you can run 2 copies of it, Giant decks had always strong card draw and also the fact that Naga turns were generally more powerfull. Like the only case where Priest was more powerfull that Naga decks was coin turn 3 Barnes into Yshaarj into big Yshaarj, Then Yshaarj getting killed and then ressurected on turn 4 with 2 Ressurects. That is the only and really unlikely way how Priest could have more stats on board than Naga.
And I know that we are discussing Barnes nerf but as I've mentioned on the first page, I don't agree with any of the nerf of Barnes because it would hurt the other decks. The only reason why he is so oprresive in Priest is because Priest has its ressurect tools. Big Rogue with 1/1 Kel'Thuzad on turn 5 thanks to Kobold can get out of hand way more yet no one complaints about it because Big Rogue lacks heals and that's the only thing that makes here bottom of Tier 2 (And mechanic is basically the same, Big Dudes are coming into play wayy earlier before turn 8 or 9).
We also made good points about highroll + powerlevel of Barnes within Priest, but were also ignored saying that we are just arguing about feeling, that there are counters and that we should be smart enough to play them.
Apex is people calling for salt against Big Priest, after having played 4 games and not having read one single post of the topic.
Let me also remind how people were deeming NSW as perfectly fine based on winrate and meta counters. Yet it was nerfed: not on the basis of winrate or meta counters, and neither of popularity.
PS: nobody here wants to kill Big Priest, and Barnes neither, actually. Just a re-vision that correctly and consistently sets Big Priest in a precise archetype and curve (Cubelock style).
I agree with you. I was just upset a little bit about fikart's logic. It's obviously bad from other people to not post anything constructive and say only: Lol. Salt. and stufflike that. That's why I don't make posts like this a lot and I'm talking about something based on my CCG experience and expereience with the deck. Btw I actually really like points what you've made and I'm curious what is Lyra going to answer so that's why I'm not joining in into discussion between you two. :D
Also about Naga nerf. Naga was nerfed because the Wild Reddit got blown up by this and that is one of the reasons. However, the Giant decks were more consistent due to the fact that Naga is epic card so you can run 2 copies of it, Giant decks had always strong card draw and also the fact that Naga turns were generally more powerfull. Like the only case where Priest was more powerfull that Naga decks was coin turn 3 Barnes into Yshaarj into big Yshaarj, Then Yshaarj getting killed and then ressurected on turn 4 with 2 Ressurects. That is the only and really unlikely way how Priest could have more stats on board than Naga.
And I know that we are discussing Barnes nerf but as I've mentioned on the first page, I don't agree with any of the nerf of Barnes because it would hurt the other decks. The only reason why he is so oprresive in Priest is because Priest has its ressurect tools. Big Rogue with 1/1 Kel'Thuzad on turn 5 thanks to Kobold can get out of hand way more yet no one complaints about it because Big Rogue lacks heals and that's the only thing that makes here bottom of Tier 2 (And mechanic is basically the same, Big Dudes are coming into play wayy earlier before turn 8 or 9).
Big Rogue would take no nerf out of a change like that as the 1/1 minion from Barnes has no chance of being resurrected at full stats, if not from N'Zoth (so later in the game where it is possible to answer to a full board) or some statically hard setups. The problem with Barnes is the synergy of the copy created with Resurrection effects. And actually, there is already a sleeping threat limited by the absence of cards.... but what if Druid got access to more tools in the future, similar to Big Priest? Because Witching Hour is a thing, so are Tyrantus and Charged Devilsaur. Good luck clearing a Tyrantus on turn 5. Naga Sea Witch synergy with Giants was an abomination, actually the closest comparison you can do with Barnes is Spiteful Summoner. And Spiteful Summoner was much much weaker than Barnes on T4. (Stronger later in the game, more useless at end game) The issue I am trying to address is not Big Priest, which would still be a strong deck without Barnes, it would just be weaker to Aggro, but the unhealthy synergy tied to resurrecting big minions too early.
A lot of things that did not have a huge drawback in cheating out too much mana too soon got nerfed. Innervate got nerfed. Mana cheating is THAT good. Barnes in Big Priest on an average roll allows you to basically summon for 4 mana a 3/4 and a token with an effect that alone can generate insane value, we can say at least 3 mana worth or more (Killing a minion and Taunt, 8 damage to something, get a Lich King card, Recruit a minion.... that's a Gather your party. It's 6 mana plus a token that can potentially keep generating.). But it's not just that. Then you get to resurrect the minion to full stats, a minion that you did not draw. Barnes in Big Priest actually gets you a "Patches" effect. It is basically drawing you a minion and playing it for what you need.
All of these would be already good on its own.
But the problem is what happens after. As an average play you can resurrect 8 mana worth of stats or more out 4 mana. As an insane play you can generate on turn 5 16 mana worth with just 4 mana on turn 5. The spellstone for 7 mana gives you back more or less 27 mana worth of minions, with no side effect. All of this is not taking into account how much more value in mana can generate cards like The Lich King, Ragnaros, Obsidian Statue and so on. All of this can be done consistently when playing Barnes, and I'm speaking staying low on mana values.
Can it be countered? With specific tech cards it can. But these tech cards are class restricted or too situational (Tinkmaster Overspark, really?) and would be played suboptimally to prevent too strong of a synergy. If you are a Hunter, Warrior (Cornered Sentry only counters Resurrect), Rogue, Paladin or Druid you can't do anything to prevent it directly. The closest to that is Tinkmaster Overspark which is a legendary that requires you to be able to kill Barnes without having minions on your board and possibly giving your opponent a 5/5, which puts you at disadvantage anyways.
The only way to actually interact and ruin the strategy based on resurrecting minions without fixing Barnes would be introducing the possibility of interacting with the Graveyards. That alone would add an entire new layer of gameplay that requires a lot of work to put in. (It would make also the game more interesting and I would love that addition, but I don't know if they will ever do that
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Remember playing Control Shaman with Reincarnate shenanigans? No? It was fun, here's a refresher!
Big Rogue would take no nerf out of a change like that as the 1/1 minion from Barnes has no chance of being resurrected at full stats, if not from N'Zoth (so later in the game where it is possible to answer to a full board) or some statically hard setups. The problem with Barnes is the synergy of the copy created with Resurrection effects. And actually, there is already a sleeping threat limited by the absence of cards.... but what if Druid got access to more tools in the future, similar to Big Priest? Because Witching Hour is a thing, so are Tyrantus and Charged Devilsaur. Good luck clearing a Tyrantus on turn 5. Naga Sea Witch synergy with Giants was an abomination, actually the closest comparison you can do with Barnes is Spiteful Summoner. And Spiteful Summoner was much much weaker than Barnes on T4. (Stronger later in the game, more useless at end game) The issue I am trying to address is not Big Priest, which would still be a strong deck without Barnes, it would just be weaker to Aggro, but the unhealthy synergy tied to resurrecting big minions too early.
A lot of things that did not have a huge drawback in cheating out too much mana too soon got nerfed. Innervate got nerfed. Mana cheating is THAT good. Barnes in Big Priest on an average roll allows you to basically summon for 4 mana a 3/4 and a token with an effect that alone can generate insane value, we can say at least 3 mana worth or more (Killing a minion and Taunt, 8 damage to something, get a Lich King card, Recruit a minion.... that's a Gather your party. It's 6 mana plus a token that can potentially keep generating.). But it's not just that. Then you get to resurrect the minion to full stats, a minion that you did not draw. Barnes in Big Priest actually gets you a "Patches" effect. It is basically drawing you a minion and playing it for what you need.
All of these would be already good on its own.
But the problem is what happens after. As an average play you can resurrect 8 mana worth of stats or more out 4 mana. As an insane play you can generate on turn 5 16 mana worth with just 4 mana on turn 5. The spellstone for 7 mana gives you back more or less 27 mana worth of minions, with no side effect. All of this is not taking into account how much more value in mana can generate cards like The Lich King, Ragnaros, Obsidian Statue and so on. All of this can be done consistently when playing Barnes, and I'm speaking staying low on mana values.
Can it be countered? With specific tech cards it can. But these tech cards are class restricted or too situational (Tinkmaster Overspark, really?) and would be played suboptimally to prevent too strong of a synergy. If you are a Hunter, Warrior (Cornered Sentry only counters Resurrect), Rogue, Paladin or Druid you can't do anything to prevent it directly. The closest to that is Tinkmaster Overspark which is a legendary that requires you to be able to kill Barnes without having minions on your board and possibly giving your opponent a 5/5, which puts you at disadvantage anyways.
The only way to actually interact and ruin the strategy based on resurrecting minions without fixing Barnes would be introducing the possibility of interacting with the Graveyards. That alone would add an entire new layer of gameplay that requires a lot of work to put in. (It would make also the game more interesting and I would love that addition, but I don't know if they will ever do that
It would matter for Big Rogue still. Same as for Big/Ancestral Shaman. Kel'Thuzad is still a thing and N'Zoth can be found in some Big Rogues as alternative instead of Valeera.) And let's not drive in duscussion into what if something happes. New powerfull synergies and archetypes will appear in Wild easily without Barnes. If there will be new way to approach to Big Druid trough Barnes and Witching Hour, then why not? Other decks are constantly evolving too. As an example: who would have thought in Kobolds meta that in the future Aviana+Kun TogAzalina Druid will be a strong force worth to be recognized with?
Now the issue with mana cheating. We all know that its a strong strategy in a mana based game like Hearthstone. On the other hand, It is counterable. Not by every deck, but its counterable. And that is fair because you can't expect to counter everything with your deck especially when your deck is build around some strategy. And while a lot of cards were changed because of that, some cards remained. Good example is Medivh,that requires only some spell in your deck. And oh man, Medivh can be disgusting. It is actually underdog of the Control decks. I know that it happens in later states of the games but that doesn't change the dact, how powerfull he is. Another example is Aviana+Kun decks that can be played in first 10 turns thanks to all ramp and card draw available in Druid class.
And back again with the Big Priest. trust me, as a Control deck you would also hate to play against Big Rogue which eats any Control deck. Here are some examples: Here and here. Mechanic is still the same and it doesn't even need a Spellstone. What you are describing here are the mana cheating shennanigans.
And if you want to actually succesfully counter Big Priest. You can. The counters were already mentioned before and if you feel wacky enough, you can add Muck Hunter :P Last but not least: you know, not only Big Priest have some really good and Highroll examples. Decks like Even Shaman,Cubelock and others like that can be pretty disgusting too.
Hi)
Don't worry, my answer is not going to be Kazakus potions only. Lets look at all five viable or semiviable Reno decks at this point: Kabal Classes(Mage,Priest,Warlock), Hunter and Shaman. Lets start with the Hero cards: 4 out of 5 hero cards are really impactfull in these decks with only Hagatha being a value RNG machine. Guldan: N'Zoth like effect with Lifesteal Darkbomb as a Hero Power? Really impactfull. Jaina: Infinite heal in theory and potentiall to spawn elemental every turn? Reallly impactfull. Anduin: Wipe everything except Barnes and Statue and then ping for 1 mana with repeatable Hero Power? Really impactfull. Rexxar: Craft any abomination you want to make some impact on the game? You've guessed it right: really impactfull :D. Even Hagatha with some Devolve or Hex is really impactfull but let's do not take this into consideration because it is too rng based.
What Powerfull things are they doing?
Warlock: Brann+Kazakus+Zola, Brann+Gnomeferatu+Zola, N'Zoth, Guldan, Sylvannas+Shadowflame, Twisting Neither, you can put Baleful Banker somewhere there too. Guldan's Hero Power is pretty good, Removal is not so bad.
Mage: Brann+Kazakus+Manic Soulcaster/Balfeul Banker/Zola. Jaina turn. Sometimes N'Zoth turn, Polymorph effects like Potion of Polymorph and Polymorph are must have, Polymorph: Boar is more like a tech card. Heavy Spell version with Medivh and such are more powerfull that with N'Zoth. Ragnaros and sometimes even Baron Geddon are really good. Iceblock so you don't have to worry about being killed (and not a single Big Priest is running tech against Secrets)
Priest: Brann+Kazakus+Zola/Banker, Shadowreaper Anduin, N'Zoth, Benedictus, Psychic Scream, Lightbomb, Entomb. Potion of Madness for Barnes turn. best removals in a Control vs Control matchup.
Hunter: Rexxar lab where he is crafting Zombeasts, N'Zoth, Deathrattle shenaniggans with Sylvannas,Cube,Feign Death and Play Death
Shaman: Hex, Devolve (and a possibility that you will find mopre of them thanks to Hagatha), The almighty Shudderwock turn with Battlecries like Loatheb,MC Tech,Reno,Medivh,Elise,Coldlight,Hagatha,Primorial Drake,Chain Gang,Zola,Banker,Grumble and so on and on or just infinite C'Thuns too)
And all of them have Reno so they can heal to 30. So the conclusion is: If you won't play Reno decks badly, they are the one that can take down ANY deck (even a combo ones when you have Rats,Coldlights and such). For example make their Spellstones and Psychic Scream really shitty by waiting for him playing Spellstone, and then pay N'Zoth or just fill your board. Every Reno class except Hunter have some transforming or banishing from graveyard effect. All of the 5 Reno decks are really hard to exhaust while Big Priest have no value generators( except maybe Ysera, Lich King is more board impactfull card). Then as someone have mentioned, you can add some tech like Doomsayer+Treachery, Polymorph Boar, hell even some greedy tech like MC Tech or Vaporize is sometimes good. My winrate against Big Priest with all Reno decks is higher than 50% and thats just only because im planning a little ahead and I get rewarded for it.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
I don't think anyone doubts Renodecks can keep up with Big Priest once they made it to the late game. The problem is Big Priest can simply run away with the game early if you can't beat his resurrection chain, before you can realistically piece any of these combinations together.
Most of the games Big Priest loses is the deck beats itself with Shadow Essence into Barnes or by not finding any of their cheat stuff into the game effects at all.
It's not unbeatable, it's unfun to play against.
You are right at some point but there still can be few counter-points made. 1. It's not like Reno decks are doing nothing in first few turns. They are usually drawing cards or setting up a small board in case of Hunter. Playing Coldlight in Reno deck seems like a reasonable choice because it draws cards for you and can potentially burn cards for your opponent.(Big Priest is perfect example of that because they don't play a lot of cards and their handsize is ofte 7+ cards.)
2. You can't determine what is unfun to play against. Different strokes for different folks. For example I find unfun to play against Aluneth Mage because in my opinion that deck requires less thinking than Pirate Warrior nowadays cause they relly on drawing Aluneth on curve. Some people think that Reno as a card is disgusting. Some people despise Kinsbane. Some people despise Jade. With that logic why don't we nerf all the "unfun" card and play with Chillwind Yeti's nerfed to 4 mana 2/3 because 4/5 stats are too unfun?
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Said a person who has never played agains a Big Priest in their entire life once. GTFO
If Barnes was to be nerfed, the simplest nerf is the best. Make it cost 5 mana.
Now as to /whether/ it should be nerfed, that’s a different story. I play renolock and the game really comes down to the following: I can win IF they don’t play Barnes on curve AND I play Kazakus on curve AND I get the polymorph option. If I don’t get those, the chance I can win is like 10%. I’m not sure how people are saying Reno decks do good against Rez priest, they simply out value you.
The whole argument most people are trying to make is the deck isn't fun to play against it's not unbeatable no deck could ever hold that title, that's the way card games are. What a lot of people are arguing is it is unfun to play against when Priest has so many cheap spells to return minions that died from Barnes or Shadow Essence. Barnes himself honestly isn't broken he's just broken with all the synergy Priest has. I still stand by that if they want to resurrect something from Barnes it should come back as a 1/1 not a full stated minion that way it doesn't actually nerf Barnes in any way.
Yes it's true decks can have tech cards for Big Priest but in a singleton deck how often are you going to draw these cards? Even in a non-singleton deck how often will you draw a 1 of for tech against Priest? I'd wager to say not often even if you hard mulligan for it you could lose valuable cards for late game doing that. A lot of decks can keep up with them late game but as previously stated they can run away with the early game very easily with T3/T4 Barnes into resurrect crap which is not enjoyable for a lot of players. How do your tech cards prevent those situations? What if you don't draw Hex or Polymorph before turn T4 when they've done Barnes and have a way of killing it on board? You bring up all these cute tech cards yet doesn't change a thing if you don't draw it. If you don't draw an answer it's very easy for them to take away the game.
All that said though I've actually been playing Big Rogue and I seem to be able to get far more minions into play then them at times makes for some funny matchups. I feel bad for every other class that gets brutalized by Priest though.
this is a much better set then the data that is filtered down to a point that it doesn't represent anything but your view on the mater
the problem is the deck is oppressive to the decks that a lot of people want to play, and its win rate is pretty crazy
playing wild
~nomad
This is actually my point.
The change proposed to Barnes would not affect Malygos combo decks. It would not affect Big Rogue. It would not affect rattlebased decks. Hell, it would even keep the Y'Shaarj synergy.
It's just to fix the anomaly of having to deal with the huge bodies starting from turn 4/5.
As a matter of fact, Big Priest could cut Barnes from the list after a change like that and with some changes still being a good deck (Having Shadow Essence not fucking up anymore summoning Barnes)
Possessed Lackey was nerfed for much much less.
Against the "argument" of Who cares is Wild.
There is so much money that can be milked out of the Wild format, if you think that Blizzard will ignore taking care of it you are deluded.
Wait until it will be possible to purchase Wild packs. Because they will get there, no doubts.
Remember playing Control Shaman with Reincarnate shenanigans? No? It was fun, here's a refresher!
Blizzard made the purchasing wild packs previously, available for a short amount of time.
"There is so much money that can be milked out of the wild format". Really? If that's the case, then why haven't they done so already? I'll tell you why, because they want newer players to be able to get into the game and not have to backtrack years worth of packs and cards. If a newer player wants to participate in wild because all of the sudden its all very accessible again on a wide scale, but can't because there's just too much to catch up on, they will eventually quit because it's overwhelming and advantageous to those who have been here longer.
Also, if they make wild packs permanently purchasable, but don't hold any actual prize tournaments, then you're just buying packs for nothing. To climb up wild ladder? K. Cool. Could most likely climb up wild ladder with standard format expansion decks and not waste money on wild expansions.
It's the banned format for a reason.
You're already able to buy wild packs on the website store no?
Oh look this thread again. While we're at it, nerf Kingsbane and aggro in general because it counters me when I play big Priest. Pls nerf Dirty Rat and Deathlord, it messes up my combo Druid :(
Big priest is not a problem, many decks counter it, I played it this month and it's nowhere near as good as people think it is, I can count at least 2 meta decks for every class that can easily beat it with smart plays. Most of the time you rely on Shadow Essence because the chance of drawing Barnes in the first 4 turns is extremely slim. I wouldn't even give a shit if Barnes gets nerfed because the deck would remain absolutely the same.
Just played big priest after reading this. Only 4 games, did not pull barnes except half way through my first game. Lots of salt here.
Just like you said if you don't get barnes early in the game you lose but if you do and your opponent doesn't have a counter you win for this reason big priest isn't fun for both players since it's just blind luck and everyone is discussing for a way to fix it but your comment is salt xdxdx. Whenever there is a discussion about a card everyone says salty without reading the comments
i play cubelock and lose 5 games in a row then i play odd paladin and get my stars back wash rinse repeat
This is a really stupid point that you are trying to make here. I made a pretty valid points why I'm against it and even reply constructively to the others yet the only feedback that I'm getting in return is: It'S UnFuN tO PlaY AGainst. And that's not only the my case. Others like Lyra made also a few good points but they are ignored or being told to calm down.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
We also made good points about highroll + powerlevel of Barnes within Priest, but were also ignored saying that we are just arguing about feeling, that there are counters and that we should be smart enough to play them.
Apex is people calling for salt against Big Priest, after having played 4 games and not having read one single post of the topic.
Let me also remind how people were deeming NSW as perfectly fine based on winrate and meta counters. Yet it was nerfed: not on the basis of winrate or meta counters, and neither of popularity.
PS: nobody here wants to kill Big Priest, and Barnes neither, actually. Just a re-vision that correctly and consistently sets Big Priest in a precise archetype and curve (Cubelock style).
Uh oh... It's that time of the year again, someone wrote properly and negatively about a mistake of a card. Quick! Protect your archetypes!
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
As FirePalyHSplayer has already mentioned it isn't a strong point to say it isn't fun to play against. That is just one portion of the community's feelings about the deck. Plenty of players find the deck fun and/or find decks that are different from Big Priest that they find unfun to play against. Would it make much sense if I just started complaining about random decks that ticked me off and labeled them all as un-fun to play against in the hopes that they all get nerfed?
A singleton deck may have a lower chance of drawing into answers to an early Barnes, but the chance that a Big Priest player draws the one copy of Barnes in their deck to highroll on turn 3/4 is even lower. My Reno Mage is twice as likely to draw into Polymorph or Polymorph Boar than a Big Priest is likely to draw into Barnes. People seem to focus on all of the games when that highroll does happen and seem to make this illogical jump that most Big Priests get that highroll on turn 3/4, despite statistics being against them and stating the impossibility of that happening most games. In reality most games against Big Priest pit you up against a big minion on turn 5/6, not 3/4. Drawing into one of a double sap, hex/devolve, polymorph, or even Tinkmaster tech is much more manageable to draw into by turn 5/6 than the dream 3/4 highroll people keep mentioning.
For the purpose of this discussion though we don't care about the win rates of Big Priest against decks that don't counter it. All that matters for the purpose of this discussion is if counter decks effectively counter it. Having a wide set of data full of information about decks that are not counters do nothing but detract from the data set of the counter decks.
I am going to make the assumption that you're referring to Big Priest discouraging as many control decks from being played in wild? If that is the case I hate to tell you, but there are two other decks that hard counter many control decks, Jade Druid and Kingsbane Rogue. While both of these can be countered (particularly Jade Druid after double Nourish and double UI are gone) they serve a high possibility of filling the gap left behind by Big Priest if it were nerfed to oblivion. Killing Big Priest honestly would do very little in the way of allowing people to play these random decks they want to be playing. In the end a deck would be nerfed or even killed for nothing to change in the end.
I agree with you. I was just upset a little bit about fikart's logic. It's obviously bad from other people to not post anything constructive and say only: Lol. Salt. and stufflike that. That's why I don't make posts like this a lot and I'm talking about something based on my CCG experience and expereience with the deck. Btw I actually really like points what you've made and I'm curious what is Lyra going to answer so that's why I'm not joining in into discussion between you two. :D
Also about Naga nerf. Naga was nerfed because the Wild Reddit got blown up by this and that is one of the reasons. However, the Giant decks were more consistent due to the fact that Naga is epic card so you can run 2 copies of it, Giant decks had always strong card draw and also the fact that Naga turns were generally more powerfull. Like the only case where Priest was more powerfull that Naga decks was coin turn 3 Barnes into Yshaarj into big Yshaarj, Then Yshaarj getting killed and then ressurected on turn 4 with 2 Ressurects. That is the only and really unlikely way how Priest could have more stats on board than Naga.
And I know that we are discussing Barnes nerf but as I've mentioned on the first page, I don't agree with any of the nerf of Barnes because it would hurt the other decks. The only reason why he is so oprresive in Priest is because Priest has its ressurect tools. Big Rogue with 1/1 Kel'Thuzad on turn 5 thanks to Kobold can get out of hand way more yet no one complaints about it because Big Rogue lacks heals and that's the only thing that makes here bottom of Tier 2 (And mechanic is basically the same, Big Dudes are coming into play wayy earlier before turn 8 or 9).
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Big Rogue would take no nerf out of a change like that as the 1/1 minion from Barnes has no chance of being resurrected at full stats, if not from N'Zoth (so later in the game where it is possible to answer to a full board) or some statically hard setups.
The problem with Barnes is the synergy of the copy created with Resurrection effects.
And actually, there is already a sleeping threat limited by the absence of cards.... but what if Druid got access to more tools in the future, similar to Big Priest?
Because Witching Hour is a thing, so are Tyrantus and Charged Devilsaur. Good luck clearing a Tyrantus on turn 5.
Naga Sea Witch synergy with Giants was an abomination, actually the closest comparison you can do with Barnes is Spiteful Summoner.
And Spiteful Summoner was much much weaker than Barnes on T4. (Stronger later in the game, more useless at end game)
The issue I am trying to address is not Big Priest, which would still be a strong deck without Barnes, it would just be weaker to Aggro, but the unhealthy synergy tied to resurrecting big minions too early.
A lot of things that did not have a huge drawback in cheating out too much mana too soon got nerfed. Innervate got nerfed. Mana cheating is THAT good.
Barnes in Big Priest on an average roll allows you to basically summon for 4 mana a 3/4 and a token with an effect that alone can generate insane value, we can say at least 3 mana worth or more (Killing a minion and Taunt, 8 damage to something, get a Lich King card, Recruit a minion.... that's a Gather your party. It's 6 mana plus a token that can potentially keep generating.). But it's not just that. Then you get to resurrect the minion to full stats, a minion that you did not draw. Barnes in Big Priest actually gets you a "Patches" effect. It is basically drawing you a minion and playing it for what you need.
All of these would be already good on its own.
But the problem is what happens after. As an average play you can resurrect 8 mana worth of stats or more out 4 mana. As an insane play you can generate on turn 5 16 mana worth with just 4 mana on turn 5. The spellstone for 7 mana gives you back more or less 27 mana worth of minions, with no side effect.
All of this is not taking into account how much more value in mana can generate cards like The Lich King, Ragnaros, Obsidian Statue and so on.
All of this can be done consistently when playing Barnes, and I'm speaking staying low on mana values.
Can it be countered? With specific tech cards it can. But these tech cards are class restricted or too situational (Tinkmaster Overspark, really?)
and would be played suboptimally to prevent too strong of a synergy.
If you are a Hunter, Warrior (Cornered Sentry only counters Resurrect), Rogue, Paladin or Druid you can't do anything to prevent it directly. The closest to that is Tinkmaster Overspark which is a legendary that requires you to be able to kill Barnes without having minions on your board and possibly giving your opponent a 5/5, which puts you at disadvantage anyways.
The only way to actually interact and ruin the strategy based on resurrecting minions without fixing Barnes would be introducing the possibility of interacting with the Graveyards. That alone would add an entire new layer of gameplay that requires a lot of work to put in. (It would make also the game more interesting and I would love that addition, but I don't know if they will ever do that
Remember playing Control Shaman with Reincarnate shenanigans? No? It was fun, here's a refresher!
It would matter for Big Rogue still. Same as for Big/Ancestral Shaman. Kel'Thuzad is still a thing and N'Zoth can be found in some Big Rogues as alternative instead of Valeera.) And let's not drive in duscussion into what if something happes. New powerfull synergies and archetypes will appear in Wild easily without Barnes. If there will be new way to approach to Big Druid trough Barnes and Witching Hour, then why not? Other decks are constantly evolving too. As an example: who would have thought in Kobolds meta that in the future Aviana+Kun TogAzalina Druid will be a strong force worth to be recognized with?
Now the issue with mana cheating. We all know that its a strong strategy in a mana based game like Hearthstone. On the other hand, It is counterable. Not by every deck, but its counterable. And that is fair because you can't expect to counter everything with your deck especially when your deck is build around some strategy. And while a lot of cards were changed because of that, some cards remained. Good example is Medivh,that requires only some spell in your deck. And oh man, Medivh can be disgusting. It is actually underdog of the Control decks. I know that it happens in later states of the games but that doesn't change the dact, how powerfull he is. Another example is Aviana+Kun decks that can be played in first 10 turns thanks to all ramp and card draw available in Druid class.
And back again with the Big Priest. trust me, as a Control deck you would also hate to play against Big Rogue which eats any Control deck. Here are some examples: Here and here. Mechanic is still the same and it doesn't even need a Spellstone. What you are describing here are the mana cheating shennanigans.
And if you want to actually succesfully counter Big Priest. You can. The counters were already mentioned before and if you feel wacky enough, you can add Muck Hunter :P Last but not least: you know, not only Big Priest have some really good and Highroll examples. Decks like Even Shaman,Cubelock and others like that can be pretty disgusting too.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks