Seems like every expansion brings with it new and unexciting un-interactive decks that simply don't care about your board/and do their own thing and are generally considered un-interactive; Freeze Mage, Patron Warrior, Pirate Warrior, Aggro Shaman, Malygos anything, AvianaKun combo, Quest mage, Cavern Rogue to name a few.
I would like to put forth the argument that the game's interactivity and decision making processes would greatly increase if Secrets were a universal mechanic rather than limited to just three classes. I know, I know, class identity and all that, but I would like to ask you guys to hear me out.
Simply by making every class have Secrets, you allow every class to trade tempo now for a safety net later; this only helps push Control/Midrange and takes a lot of wind out of Combo/Aggro's sails (For the record, I'm a combo player at heart). By allowing the Control player to force the Aggro/Combo players to make odd plays to play around the potential of the Secret, you've put a ton of power into those decks.
In Magic the Gathering, Instants (Can be played instantly on any player's turn by anyone) are what breath life into Control decks. By allowing them to answer threats before they become an issue *by investing mana from a prior turn into the answer*, they allow Control decks to breath and build up resources. This allows Control decks to be able to answer what comes their way while still preserving their life total (as even a Charge Minion has to survive till the Combat phase). However, Instants are stupid. The Stack is stupid. It overcomplicated the game, especially in the Online games.
Hearthstone already has an elegant solution to the Stack; secrets that can be played around. By expanding Secrets to each of the classes, you could give each and every game that feel of having to guess what the secret is and being able to play around it, which would only make the game more interactive.
Most importantly, it would allow combo decks that absolutely NEED to be uninterrupted have some counterplay, no matter what they were (depending on the secrets created).
A simple Shaman Secret could be "The next time an opponent plays a minion, deal 2 damage to it", costing 1 or 2 mana. Early game it helps give you some breathing room, but late game it kills Sorcerer's Apprentice, Leeroy Jenkins, gets Gadgetzan Auctioneer to a manageable level, but doesn't answer everything since Grim Patron would love this card, Edwin VanCleef wouldn't care about it, and various other examples; unlike the Sheep Potion, it doesn't answer everything. Merely by giving Shaman a Secret that does exactly what Shaman likes to do (deal direct damage), you've helped stave off Leeroy Faceless Combo.
It's not like there isn't design space that couldn't be occupied by each of the classes' secrets. Warlock could heal themselves if a friendly Demon dies, Priest could heal every allied minion for 2 when a friendly minion dies, Rogue could give their weapons poison if a minion was played, Warrior could activate their weapon when attacked, Druids could summon treants when spells are cast, the list goes on. If we ever want to see Hearthstone be interactive, Secrets need to be available to every class.
Dirty Rat is still too reactive in Tempo to be able to fill this Niche. Rather than trading tempo now for an effect later, Dirty Rat forces you to wait for removal in order to deal with what it pulls out, resulting in negative tempo compared to what's already on the board.
Edit: Also, it has been brought to my attention that "Being safe during your turn is exactly why Charge is abused as much as it is", and giving every class Secrets would go a long way to combat that.
And while we're on the subject of giving every class something, weapons could totally be brought to all of them as well. Mage, Priest, and Warlock could totally see Staves that are 1/1 for 2 with a static effect (Mage gets +1 Spellpower, for instance). With the fact that the Oozes are always around, it's not like they would be too overbearing if they were good.
The problem with secrets right now is that most decks don't have room for them. The "added value" they may bring usually doesn't outweigh that of another card. Maybe if Blizzard added some decent secrets they'd be more in demand.
Rogue should definitely have secrets. Why does paladin, a class that is supposed to be about truth and justice have secrets, but rogue, a class about being sneaky and using tricks not have secrets? Misdirection for example would be a fantastic rogue card.
The problem with secrets right now is that most decks don't have room for them. The "added value" they may bring usually don't outweigh that of another card. Maybe if Blizzard added some decent secrets they'd be more in demand.
This is mostly class dependent, honestly. Mage is currently using (and probably will always use) Ice Block/Frost Barrier, and Hunter usually runs Explosive Trap at the very least. It's no Secret that the Paladin secrets suck unless you play all of them at once, but that's mostly a design issue than anything else.
Rogue should definitely have secrets. Why does paladin, a class that is supposed to be about truth and justice have secrets, but rogue, a class about being sneaky and using tricks not have secrets? Misdirection for example would be a fantastic rogue card.
I could definitely see Rogue having secrets that shuffle stuff into the deck as various traps (like a mini Burrowing Mine for instance) along with giving their weapon Poisonous and such.
I personally hate secrets from a game design stand point. First, because they're a poor solution to the issue of not being able to do anything on your opponent's turn, a big issue for any interesting card game, I must add. Second because for some reason paladins have secrets, but rogues and warlocks don't, and I don't get it. Third, there is little to no way of interacting with them. Eater of secrets doesn't count, it's unplayable and doesn't even guarantee wins against the card it was created to counter, kezan mystic was ok'ish, but pretty much a liability if the battlecry didn't hit something and flare is exclusive to hunters.
So starting off we already have a big f*****g mess.
That said, I don't think your solution of giving every class secrets a terrible idea, although there are obvious problems attached to it... to start, the old secret classes would have a lead on the amount of options, and that is a big deal considering how secrets work. Other issue would be that the game was balanced around the concept that secrets are pretty scarce, and changing that could potentially break some cards... I'm not going to go trough the mental exercise of actually thinking which ones, but Secretkeeper obviously comes to mind.
I don't think they're ever going to abandon secrets and, Idk, create a game mode where they aren't allowed. I don't think they will address the "I can't do anything on your turn" issue, at least not in the next year(s). Since I can't really think of any other solution for this situation, the best thing to do would be either give secrets to all other classes and admit it was a mistake not to in the first place, or give the other classes something similar (I actually thought quests could be it when the priest quest was spoiled).
Either way, I'm pretty sure it's about time they should give us neutral minions that interact with secrets, even if it's only making them not work for a turn or so. Something has to happen on this front.
Even classes with secrets barely use them except if they are able to cast them for 0 or to fetch them somehow.. or they are iceblock.
Introducong secrets to a class would beed to take at least 3 slots from an expansion btw 1 secret and it's too obvios, same for 2.
That's not entirely fair; Hunter uses Explosive Trap and Freezing Trap pretty consistently, and they do use Snake Trap/Snipe on occasion as well. Hunter completely disappeared from the meta for an entire expansion and I wouldn't be surprised if they snuck in some traps when the meta settles again.
Also, I disagree with your second point; even if it's obvious, Ice Block is a powerful, powerful card. Not that other classes should get Ice Block, but the fact is that there can be secrets that are just plain old good.
That said, I don't think your solution of giving every class secrets a terrible idea, although there are obvious problems attached to it... to start, the old secret classes would have a lead on the amount of options, and that is a big deal considering how secrets work. Other issue would be that the game was balanced around the concept that secrets are pretty scarce, and changing that could potentially break some cards... I'm not going to go trough the mental exercise of actually thinking which ones, but Secretkeeper obviously comes to mind.
Secrets, while there should be better tech cards, don't really require them because you can play around them (Except Ice Block).
Secretkeeper would need to be looked at, but that's really the only Classic/Standard card that would be busted because of it. Mad Scientist would start seeing more play than it already does, but that's Wild and it's competing with a LOT of good cards in the 2drop slot.
However, I must say that the "more selection" thing wouldn't necessarily be a problem, just like I don't understand how that applies to Blizzard adding the Death Knight and Monk; in Standard, there's a set number of cards. Between the three sets introduced each year, all you'd need to do is give each class that doesn't have secrets a secret or two per set and they'd be golden. In wild they'd be short changed, but Blizzard doesn't really do much for Wild at the moment and it's better ot have fewer than none at any rate.
I dont agree with your assessment about most decks being uninteractive- even the new 'boogie man' in Questing Rogue is quite the tug of war if they dont go off super quick.
I DO agree that every class should have secret. Secrets are among the most interestign cards in the game and its silly to limit such a wide design space to three classes. It's the same with weapons. That would also allow interesting decisions with htings like Swamp Ooze and Secret Eater, which are both dead more often than not.
I'm completely in favour of having more mechanics to interactive with your opponent on their turn (or act proactively or reactively), but I'm not convinced that it has to be specifically secrets. Secrets are great, and are certainly one option that should be explored further (especially in Rogue where it fits the class identity. 0 mana secrets for Rogue just make a lot of sense), but I'm also fine seeing more cards like Dirty Rat, Lorewalker Cho, Swamp King Dred, Troggzor the Earthinator, Mayor Noggenfogger, Loatheb, etc. Not in the sense that they are all amazing or well designed cards, but in that they influence or interfere with the way your opponent plays the game.
I vetoed Warrior because, quite frankly, Warrior already has enough archetypes to survive as a class. Yes, I'm biased - Warrior is my least favorite class to play and one of my least favorites to play against.
I'm in full agreement that we need more Loathebs. We already have it for Creatures, why is static/battlecry "Don't cast anything" so horrible? Because it's not fun not being able to do anything? You can't do anything against Pirate Warrior/Quest Rogue/Time Warp anyway!
The problem with some of those minions though would be the Eater of Secrets problem; how good can a minion be without being relevant that it isn't OP when it is. Eater of Secrets is a powerhouse against any Secret deck.... but a dead card against 6 of the 9 classes, so you can't risk putting it in the deck even if Secret Pally is a large portion of the meta.
Also, the Deathrattle: Freeze all minions would slot into Freeze Mage so fast (turns your single target removal into board stalls at the very least0 it's not funny.
I vetoed Warrior because, quite frankly, Warrior already has enough archetypes to survive as a class. Yes, I'm biased - Warrior is my least favorite class to play and one of my least favorites to play against.
The problem isn't the archetypes the class has, it's that not being able to interact/prevent your opponent from doing SOMETHING on their turn is what's causing 90% of Hearthstone's problems time after time.
Even if Warrior got a weapon that hurt everything that attacked him (So the weapon is active on the opponents turn) would be enough, honestly.
I just played a secret mage twice in a row, before that a rogue and I had exactly the experience that you explain:
"Disallowing any class from interacting on the opponents turn just seems bad."
Where I had to think about playing around their secrets all the time, because they could spam them constantly. I felt like they interacted with my board only when they needed to trade their cheap "Kabal Crystal Runner" against the next thread.
After that I felt I want me some secrets for my druid deck too, only so I can feel like my opponent does have to think aswell to get his win.
For the conservatives that feel "oh no, what about class identity?" This is a strategy game and every class should have acess to fundamental resources of the game (secrets being one of those).
I hope they implement them soon. Adding them to the rogue class was a first step in the right direction. WIth the next expansion they can up the complexity by alot with the such an inclusion.
I just played a secret mage twice in a row, before that a rogue and I had exactly the experience that you explain:
"Disallowing any class from interacting on the opponents turn just seems bad."
Where I had to think about playing around their secrets all the time, because they could spam them constantly. I felt like they interacted with my board only when they needed to trade their cheap "Kabal Crystal Runner" against the next thread.
After that I felt I want me some secrets for my druid deck too, only so I can feel like my opponent does have to think aswell to get his win.
For the conservatives that feel "oh no, what about class identity?" This is a strategy game and every class should have acess to fundamental resources of the game (secrets being one of those).
I hope they implement them soon. Adding them to the rogue class was a first step in the right direction. WIth the next expansion they can up the complexity by alot with the such an inclusion.
That necro... On the topic though, I don't think that many people care about class identity. It seems like it's mostly the development team. And they've dropped the whole no-weapons-for-casters idea with this expansion so secrets seem like a good place to go next. Only issue with secrets is you need enough to make it so that people can't guess. It's already fairly obvious in rogue and unless they put a ton of effort into planning out numerous unique secrets, it would get pretty lame pretty fast.
Seems like every expansion brings with it new and unexciting un-interactive decks that simply don't care about your board/and do their own thing and are generally considered un-interactive; Freeze Mage, Patron Warrior, Pirate Warrior, Aggro Shaman, Malygos anything, AvianaKun combo, Quest mage, Cavern Rogue to name a few.
I would like to put forth the argument that the game's interactivity and decision making processes would greatly increase if Secrets were a universal mechanic rather than limited to just three classes. I know, I know, class identity and all that, but I would like to ask you guys to hear me out.
Simply by making every class have Secrets, you allow every class to trade tempo now for a safety net later; this only helps push Control/Midrange and takes a lot of wind out of Combo/Aggro's sails (For the record, I'm a combo player at heart). By allowing the Control player to force the Aggro/Combo players to make odd plays to play around the potential of the Secret, you've put a ton of power into those decks.
In Magic the Gathering, Instants (Can be played instantly on any player's turn by anyone) are what breath life into Control decks. By allowing them to answer threats before they become an issue *by investing mana from a prior turn into the answer*, they allow Control decks to breath and build up resources. This allows Control decks to be able to answer what comes their way while still preserving their life total (as even a Charge Minion has to survive till the Combat phase). However, Instants are stupid. The Stack is stupid. It overcomplicated the game, especially in the Online games.
Hearthstone already has an elegant solution to the Stack; secrets that can be played around. By expanding Secrets to each of the classes, you could give each and every game that feel of having to guess what the secret is and being able to play around it, which would only make the game more interactive.
Most importantly, it would allow combo decks that absolutely NEED to be uninterrupted have some counterplay, no matter what they were (depending on the secrets created).
A simple Shaman Secret could be "The next time an opponent plays a minion, deal 2 damage to it", costing 1 or 2 mana. Early game it helps give you some breathing room, but late game it kills Sorcerer's Apprentice, Leeroy Jenkins, gets Gadgetzan Auctioneer to a manageable level, but doesn't answer everything since Grim Patron would love this card, Edwin VanCleef wouldn't care about it, and various other examples; unlike the Sheep Potion, it doesn't answer everything. Merely by giving Shaman a Secret that does exactly what Shaman likes to do (deal direct damage), you've helped stave off Leeroy Faceless Combo.
It's not like there isn't design space that couldn't be occupied by each of the classes' secrets. Warlock could heal themselves if a friendly Demon dies, Priest could heal every allied minion for 2 when a friendly minion dies, Rogue could give their weapons poison if a minion was played, Warrior could activate their weapon when attacked, Druids could summon treants when spells are cast, the list goes on. If we ever want to see Hearthstone be interactive, Secrets need to be available to every class.
Dirty Rat is still too reactive in Tempo to be able to fill this Niche. Rather than trading tempo now for an effect later, Dirty Rat forces you to wait for removal in order to deal with what it pulls out, resulting in negative tempo compared to what's already on the board.
Edit: Also, it has been brought to my attention that "Being safe during your turn is exactly why Charge is abused as much as it is", and giving every class Secrets would go a long way to combat that.
And while we're on the subject of giving every class something, weapons could totally be brought to all of them as well. Mage, Priest, and Warlock could totally see Staves that are 1/1 for 2 with a static effect (Mage gets +1 Spellpower, for instance). With the fact that the Oozes are always around, it's not like they would be too overbearing if they were good.
Aw come on, at least tell me I'm wrong or something.
Let's have a discussion about it.
The problem with secrets right now is that most decks don't have room for them. The "added value" they may bring usually doesn't outweigh that of another card. Maybe if Blizzard added some decent secrets they'd be more in demand.
Nope. I'm vetoing Warrior secrets.
Forgive me, friend. I have failed.
Rogue should definitely have secrets. Why does paladin, a class that is supposed to be about truth and justice have secrets, but rogue, a class about being sneaky and using tricks not have secrets? Misdirection for example would be a fantastic rogue card.
No, not all classes have healing, weapons, etc. Secrets should stay the same.
Even classes with secrets barely use them except if they are able to cast them for 0 or to fetch them somehow.. or they are iceblock.
Introducong secrets to a class would beed to take at least 3 slots from an expansion btw 1 secret and it's too obvios, same for 2.
I personally hate secrets from a game design stand point. First, because they're a poor solution to the issue of not being able to do anything on your opponent's turn, a big issue for any interesting card game, I must add. Second because for some reason paladins have secrets, but rogues and warlocks don't, and I don't get it. Third, there is little to no way of interacting with them. Eater of secrets doesn't count, it's unplayable and doesn't even guarantee wins against the card it was created to counter, kezan mystic was ok'ish, but pretty much a liability if the battlecry didn't hit something and flare is exclusive to hunters.
So starting off we already have a big f*****g mess.
That said, I don't think your solution of giving every class secrets a terrible idea, although there are obvious problems attached to it... to start, the old secret classes would have a lead on the amount of options, and that is a big deal considering how secrets work. Other issue would be that the game was balanced around the concept that secrets are pretty scarce, and changing that could potentially break some cards... I'm not going to go trough the mental exercise of actually thinking which ones, but Secretkeeper obviously comes to mind.
I don't think they're ever going to abandon secrets and, Idk, create a game mode where they aren't allowed. I don't think they will address the "I can't do anything on your turn" issue, at least not in the next year(s). Since I can't really think of any other solution for this situation, the best thing to do would be either give secrets to all other classes and admit it was a mistake not to in the first place, or give the other classes something similar (I actually thought quests could be it when the priest quest was spoiled).
Either way, I'm pretty sure it's about time they should give us neutral minions that interact with secrets, even if it's only making them not work for a turn or so. Something has to happen on this front.
Secrets, while there should be better tech cards, don't really require them because you can play around them (Except Ice Block).
Secretkeeper would need to be looked at, but that's really the only Classic/Standard card that would be busted because of it. Mad Scientist would start seeing more play than it already does, but that's Wild and it's competing with a LOT of good cards in the 2drop slot.
However, I must say that the "more selection" thing wouldn't necessarily be a problem, just like I don't understand how that applies to Blizzard adding the Death Knight and Monk; in Standard, there's a set number of cards. Between the three sets introduced each year, all you'd need to do is give each class that doesn't have secrets a secret or two per set and they'd be golden. In wild they'd be short changed, but Blizzard doesn't really do much for Wild at the moment and it's better ot have fewer than none at any rate.
I dont agree with your assessment about most decks being uninteractive- even the new 'boogie man' in Questing Rogue is quite the tug of war if they dont go off super quick.
I DO agree that every class should have secret. Secrets are among the most interestign cards in the game and its silly to limit such a wide design space to three classes. It's the same with weapons. That would also allow interesting decisions with htings like Swamp Ooze and Secret Eater, which are both dead more often than not.
I'm completely in favour of having more mechanics to interactive with your opponent on their turn (or act proactively or reactively), but I'm not convinced that it has to be specifically secrets. Secrets are great, and are certainly one option that should be explored further (especially in Rogue where it fits the class identity. 0 mana secrets for Rogue just make a lot of sense), but I'm also fine seeing more cards like Dirty Rat, Lorewalker Cho, Swamp King Dred, Troggzor the Earthinator, Mayor Noggenfogger, Loatheb, etc. Not in the sense that they are all amazing or well designed cards, but in that they influence or interfere with the way your opponent plays the game.
I vetoed Warrior because, quite frankly, Warrior already has enough archetypes to survive as a class. Yes, I'm biased - Warrior is my least favorite class to play and one of my least favorites to play against.
Forgive me, friend. I have failed.
Shaman has DD, Aoe, Hard Removal, Draw, and Heal and you want to give them secrets too? Are you crazy?
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I vetoed Warrior because, quite frankly, Warrior already has enough archetypes to survive as a class. Yes, I'm biased - Warrior is my least favorite class to play and one of my least favorites to play against.
I just played a secret mage twice in a row, before that a rogue and I had exactly the experience that you explain:
"Disallowing any class from interacting on the opponents turn just seems bad."
Where I had to think about playing around their secrets all the time, because they could spam them constantly. I felt like they interacted with my board only when they needed to trade their cheap "Kabal Crystal Runner" against the next thread.
After that I felt I want me some secrets for my druid deck too, only so I can feel like my opponent does have to think aswell to get his win.
For the conservatives that feel "oh no, what about class identity?" This is a strategy game and every class should have acess to fundamental resources of the game (secrets being one of those).
I hope they implement them soon. Adding them to the rogue class was a first step in the right direction. WIth the next expansion they can up the complexity by alot with the such an inclusion.
You missed a class...there's 4 classes that can uses secrets: Mage, Hunter, Rogue, Paladin
A, that assumes that combo and aggro are inherently bad, and B, that would shatter class identity