For the conservatives that feel "oh no, what about class identity?" This is a strategy game and every class should have acess to fundamental resources of the game (secrets being one of those).
Should we also give every class damage-dealing weapons? How about overload cards? And what about beast synergy? If we give every class every resource, there's no longer a reason to have classes in the first place. Class identity is more that just for aesthetic purposes; it encourages different classes to run different kinds of decks, which is incredibly important.
Also, not sure how you came to the conclusion that "wants to preserve class identity" = "conservative"
I just played a secret mage twice in a row, before that a rogue and I had exactly the experience that you explain:
"Disallowing any class from interacting on the opponents turn just seems bad."
Where I had to think about playing around their secrets all the time, because they could spam them constantly. I felt like they interacted with my board only when they needed to trade their cheap "Kabal Crystal Runner" against the next thread.
After that I felt I want me some secrets for my druid deck too, only so I can feel like my opponent does have to think aswell to get his win.
For the conservatives that feel "oh no, what about class identity?" This is a strategy game and every class should have acess to fundamental resources of the game (secrets being one of those).
I hope they implement them soon. Adding them to the rogue class was a first step in the right direction. WIth the next expansion they can up the complexity by alot with the such an inclusion.
That necro... On the topic though, I don't think that many people care about class identity. It seems like it's mostly the development team. And they've dropped the whole no-weapons-for-casters idea with this expansion so secrets seem like a good place to go next. Only issue with secrets is you need enough to make it so that people can't guess. It's already fairly obvious in rogue and unless they put a ton of effort into planning out numerous unique secrets, it would get pretty lame pretty fast.
I know right :-D but I didn't feel like opening up a new thread when this one stated some good points already.
You may be right. Its probably the devs that care about class identity the most. I totally agree on the guessing but even with the three the roque secrets, I as player have to test the waters first before blindly playing into one. So I'd say put them in every class and add them constantly. Mage and Pala can be cut short for one or two expansions. Especially mage with the most playable ones. Especially the Counterspell Secret feels opressive when you have Branching Paths and Dark Whispers in your hand and no other option to crack it.
For the conservatives that feel "oh no, what about class identity?" This is a strategy game and every class should have acess to fundamental resources of the game (secrets being one of those).
Should we also give every class damage-dealing weapons? How about overload cards? And what about beast synergy? If we give every class every resource, there's no longer a reason to have classes in the first place. Class identity is more that just for aesthetic purposes; it encourages different classes to run different kinds of decks, which is incredibly important.
Also, not sure how you came to the conclusion that "wants to preserve class identity" = "conservative"
Sorry I hurt your feelings there. I just feel like secrets, as the only means to interact with your opponent during their turn, should be avaible for every class. If class identity does anything, it is limiting the ability to play different decks because there's mostly only one viable deck per class.
Definition of the adjective "conservative" = favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change. Hope that helps
Should we also give every class damage-dealing weapons? How about overload cards? And what about beast synergy? If we give every class every resource, there's no longer a reason to have classes in the first place. Class identity is more that just for aesthetic purposes; it encourages different classes to run different kinds of decks, which is incredibly important.
Also, not sure how you came to the conclusion that "wants to preserve class identity" = "conservative"
Did adding Plated Beetle ruin the class identity of warrior as the armor class? What about when they started adding a whole bunch of armor cards to druid? Did adding Grumble, Worldshaker ruin the class identity of rogue as the bounce class? Did adding Healing Wave and Healing Rain cause shaman to edge into priest and paladin's territory? What about Al'Akir the Windlord's divine shield or their new freeze cards?
Sure, class identity is sort of interesting, but everybody gets sick of playing the same old decks time and again. Rogue was a boring mess of a class that could only run miracle, tempo or face up until the last few expansions but now that they have new survivability tools, they're able to diversify. Breaking through some of that bullshit "class identity" allowed the class to thrive and try new things. And as much as Blizz claims that it's important to them, they continue to give Shaman a mishmash of everything (healing, burn damage, tokens, AOEs, murlocs, freeze, taunts, battlecry synergy, deathrattle synergy) while restricting other classes to what they think they should have (hunter!!!). Sure, give the focus of a mechanic to one class (combo to rogue, overload to shaman, choose one to druid), but I don't think they should have to neglect giving a class a badass card that could spawn new archetypes just because it's a mechanic used by another class. I think class identity has been more of a restriction to running different kinds of decks than an encouragement. The real culprit is not the spreading out of class identity, it's the addition of overpowered commons.
Secrets are like weapons. There's already a number of classes that have them, so it's not a huge deal if you give them to another class. Everyone whines about the logic of something unsubtle like a warrior using a secret, but then you go and see wimpy-ass Anduin wielding Frostmourne and cutting down bitches due to big priest. Secrets are a way to interact outside of your turn and to force people to play around things. The only reason I can see for not including more secrets is that it's bloody hard to come up with more secrets that would actually be interesting as opposed to just creating more for the sake of having them in classes. Like even rogues "new" secrets were pretty much shitty Ice Block, marginally better Misdirection, and Getaway Kodo on crack. If there were interesting ones, I would love to see them spread out in classes. For example: "When your opponent play a minion, deal 3 damage to each minion beside it", "When your opponent casts an untargeted spell, cast the effect on yourself and/or your own minions", "When one of your minions dies, give the rest of your minions Immune for the rest of this turn", or "When your opponent plays a charge minion, destroy it and deal its attack to their hero". Add things like that and I'd enjoy seeing secrets for everyone.
The only thing I'm worried about is how can you expand secrets to all the classes without repeating some? There are only so many triggers and right now, only three different cost values, if you were to maintain a full set of secrets for more than one expansion, you'd probably run out of secrets to make without making them too specific to play in more than one exact matchup.
The potential design space for Secrets is largely unexplored; it'd be great to see more of it.
They've gone too far with the Secret-based synergy in Mage. Expensive Secrets should be expensive and worth it in the right deck. You shouldn't be able to nullify an opponent's entire late-game turn with two Secrets that you force-drew and played for free.
Paladin's Hydrologist is awesome gameplay. There may be a best Secret for their situation, but was it offered? You still have to play around other possibilities.
Blue sky? Secret Reform in which all Secrets are removed, but every class gains a pool of Secrets as non-collectible cards and class-specific ways to get them into play like Hydrologist. "Add three random Secrets to your hand." "Put a Secret from your opponent's class into the battlefield." "Discover a Secret that was triggered this game." "When you trigger an opponent's Secret, put a copy into your hand." Something like Adapt that lets you store a Secret on a minion as a Deathrattle.
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Shudderwock means driving a clown car in circles around your opponent while he swings his sword at you. Half the time he chops you and your car to pieces. The other half you park on his legs and 40 clowns come out one by one, trampling him to death.
I think they can definitely create more cards like Fatespinner to give added interaction in a way that isn’t just the same old secret mechanic.
Another thing they could try is a mechanic where the “secret” minion you play would be unknown to your opponent (for example on their screen all they’d see is that you played a minion that is a represented as a secret, but actually on the battlefield rather than up next to the hero portrait) until it was revealed via targeting it with a spell/effect or attacking with it/into it, etc.
It seems like a fun idea on paper, but in practice all it does is increase the expectations that the opponent is going to be facing off against secrets consistently for many of their matches and then almost 100% guarantee to include anti-secret tech. What this accomplishes is that secrets actually see less play and get countered more often than if they are only available to some classes.
I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist. ©Trimutius
You may be right. Its probably the devs that care about class identity the most.
I totally agree on the guessing but even with the three the roque secrets, I as player have to test the waters first before blindly playing into one. So I'd say put them in every class and add them constantly. Mage and Pala can be cut short for one or two expansions. Especially mage with the most playable ones.
Especially the Counterspell Secret feels opressive when you have Branching Paths and Dark Whispers in your hand and no other option to crack it.
If class identity does anything, it is limiting the ability to play different decks because there's mostly only one viable deck per class.
Definition of the adjective "conservative" = favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change. Hope that helps
The only thing I'm worried about is how can you expand secrets to all the classes without repeating some? There are only so many triggers and right now, only three different cost values, if you were to maintain a full set of secrets for more than one expansion, you'd probably run out of secrets to make without making them too specific to play in more than one exact matchup.
This space is intentionally blank.
The potential design space for Secrets is largely unexplored; it'd be great to see more of it.
They've gone too far with the Secret-based synergy in Mage. Expensive Secrets should be expensive and worth it in the right deck. You shouldn't be able to nullify an opponent's entire late-game turn with two Secrets that you force-drew and played for free.
Paladin's Hydrologist is awesome gameplay. There may be a best Secret for their situation, but was it offered? You still have to play around other possibilities.
Blue sky? Secret Reform in which all Secrets are removed, but every class gains a pool of Secrets as non-collectible cards and class-specific ways to get them into play like Hydrologist. "Add three random Secrets to your hand." "Put a Secret from your opponent's class into the battlefield." "Discover a Secret that was triggered this game." "When you trigger an opponent's Secret, put a copy into your hand." Something like Adapt that lets you store a Secret on a minion as a Deathrattle.
Shudderwock means driving a clown car in circles around your opponent while he swings his sword at you. Half the time he chops you and your car to pieces. The other half you park on his legs and 40 clowns come out one by one, trampling him to death.
Whizbang Strategy Reference -- update complete for Rastakhan's Rumble!
Warrior secrets ,all at 1 mana
1. At the end of your next opponent turn, gain 3 armor for each card he played. ( strong vs aggro and combo, sometimes usesless vs control)
2. If a damaged enemy minion attack you, destroy it.( strong vs control and midrange, weak vs aggro)
3. When a friendly minion is destroy, gain armor equal to its cost.( decent most of the time, very good if you play wallet style heavy threat CW)
I think they can definitely create more cards like Fatespinner to give added interaction in a way that isn’t just the same old secret mechanic.
Another thing they could try is a mechanic where the “secret” minion you play would be unknown to your opponent (for example on their screen all they’d see is that you played a minion that is a represented as a secret, but actually on the battlefield rather than up next to the hero portrait) until it was revealed via targeting it with a spell/effect or attacking with it/into it, etc.
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/211303-2k18-expansions-rise-of-the-secrets
It seems like a fun idea on paper, but in practice all it does is increase the expectations that the opponent is going to be facing off against secrets consistently for many of their matches and then almost 100% guarantee to include anti-secret tech. What this accomplishes is that secrets actually see less play and get countered more often than if they are only available to some classes.