I would say new formats. People always want cards to be nerfed and then complain when they get nerfed to oblivion. So instead of nerfing cards, how about doing what card games like magic do and create new formats in which certain cards are banned. Also to deal with aggression maybe we need more good early game taunts maybe like a 2 mana 3/5 taunt and can't attack, basically an ancient watcher but with one less attack and taunt. I do think it is important to have some powerful cards in card games because if you nerf all of the powerful cards, then you get a really stale meta where there are no threats to play around. I am glad that the fanbase does not have the power to nerf cards otherwise about 50% of the cards would probably end up getting nerfed. People in the past even wanted to nerf Northshire Cleric. Even though it is a strong draw engine for Priest, nerf that card and you may as well delete Priest as a class.
Its simple really. You take out cards which are beyond your control and cards which conceal information. The reason? To give the better player a higher chance to win, which every reasonable person will agree to be a good thing.
For example, Yogg is too far beyond your control and playing around it is not only playing around a board wipe, but also often playing around secrets and cards your opponent shouldn't have, and sometimes it nets more value than any other 10 mana card in the game, winning you the match through sheer value. Thus Yogg is both beyond your control and conceals information, which are both things that decrease the chances that the better player wins the game.
With this in mind I'll proceed to make a list of the cards that should be removed from the game in order to make for a fair and more enjoyable competitive experience, tell me if you agree or make suggestions yourself.
In my opinion these are all poorly designed cards which introduce too much variance into the game. It is not good to have your whole game plan disrupted by a card that shouldn't be in your opponen't deck or by a random effect generating too much value without compromising too much (you can play Yogg in decks which work reasonably well without him and you pay ~1 mana for a basic totem from Tuskarr which also helps you reduce Thing). I don't include Raven Idol but perhaps I should?
Yogg-Saron, Hope's End - really bad card for the game. I won't rehash the same thing I and others have said but I agree wholeheartedly that we would be better off without it. This won't happen though, so we should all get over it.
Tuskarr Totemic - Everyone remembers when this card spits out a high value total and forgets how useless it is when it throws out a basic totem. The power level of this card is comparable to Animal Companion - both produce over-statted minions at the cost of randomness. It's really not that bad. This is not the card that makes Aggro Shaman work, and any credible person knows that.
Barnes - there is really only one deck that can stick this into a vanilla list and get consistent value - the now-converged midrange / hybrid hunter, and it's because of all the deathrattles. If it doesn't pull a powerful deathrattle or sustain, it's a Yeti with stats split over two characters, which is generally worse.
Cabalist's Tome - Massive tempo loss for card advantage. Randomness actually helps balance this card. I see no problem with it.
Ethereal Conjurer - Lousy stats offset powerful battlecry, Discover has been a nearly universally liked mechanic in the game. Sorry, think you're just wrong on this one.
The only really broken card on this list is Yogg. Everything else has a palpable downside, both in terms of stats (or tempo loss in the case of Tome), and the risk that it pulls something utterly useless. Other than Yogg, nothing on this poses stronger RNG than who Rag hits or what minion Sylv steals.
But I am not saying that these cards are overpowered. The average value these cards get is fine (except for Tuskarr Totemic and Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, which are both overpowered on average). But you don't compromise for a chance at highrolling and that's a problem. Its not too bad if Tuskarr spawns a basic totem because you get a discount on Thing from Below, and when it highrolls its too good. Token Druid appears to be reasonably good without Yogg, and with Yogg its broken.
Tome and Conjurer are a different matter. They conceal information and that's the problem. I have no way of knowing if my opponent got a Polymorph from Tome and my win condition is going to get screwed because I'm playing cycle C'Thun, or if I can't play my Fireball because he got Counterspell but I should play it because it might be Ice Block and I need him at 1 next turn. You have to compromise too much to play around ALL cards. In the end you can play your chances but you can see how this adds unnecessary RNG to the game.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree. It really took until WoG to make totem synergy a viable angle for Shaman to play. Tuskarr was in the meta for nearly 9 months before it really became controversial with WoG. I just don't see it as the "problem" card in the class. Also, to be realistic, we only have to deal with that card for another 6-7 months. Even if it deserved to be nerfed a la the new witch card, it's not happening.
As for Tome and Conjurer, to make that argument, you really have to extend it to every discover or "gain a random card" play in the game. As someone who would prefer to play a control deck to aggro or midrange once the grind of laddering every month is over, I totally get your frustration with respect to an extra Polymorph or Poly:Boar, but just as often, it will give something much less useful, like Ice Lance or [card]Blizzard[card] when you've just dropped Rag. But if we're honest, these cards just aren't that different than Peddler, Huckster, Thoughtsteal, Burgle, or a litany of other cards.
None of these should be nerfed or banned from ladder (again, besides Yogg, eff that card). If you want to argue that they should be banned in some tournaments in the spirit of emphasizing skill, that's probably a more reasonable discussion. Will be interesting to see how Firebat's ban tourney is received.
Its simple really. You take out cards which are beyond your control and cards which conceal information. The reason? To give the better player a higher chance to win, which every reasonable person will agree to be a good thing.
For example, Yogg is too far beyond your control and playing around it is not only playing around a board wipe, but also often playing around secrets and cards your opponent shouldn't have, and sometimes it nets more value than any other 10 mana card in the game, winning you the match through sheer value. Thus Yogg is both beyond your control and conceals information, which are both things that decrease the chances that the better player wins the game.
With this in mind I'll proceed to make a list of the cards that should be removed from the game in order to make for a fair and more enjoyable competitive experience, tell me if you agree or make suggestions yourself.
In my opinion these are all poorly designed cards which introduce too much variance into the game. It is not good to have your whole game plan disrupted by a card that shouldn't be in your opponen't deck or by a random effect generating too much value without compromising too much (you can play Yogg in decks which work reasonably well without him and you pay ~1 mana for a basic totem from Tuskarr which also helps you reduce Thing). I don't include Raven Idol but perhaps I should?
Yogg-Saron, Hope's End - really bad card for the game. I won't rehash the same thing I and others have said but I agree wholeheartedly that we would be better off without it. This won't happen though, so we should all get over it.
Tuskarr Totemic - Everyone remembers when this card spits out a high value total and forgets how useless it is when it throws out a basic totem. The power level of this card is comparable to Animal Companion - both produce over-statted minions at the cost of randomness. It's really not that bad. This is not the card that makes Aggro Shaman work, and any credible person knows that.
Barnes - there is really only one deck that can stick this into a vanilla list and get consistent value - the now-converged midrange / hybrid hunter, and it's because of all the deathrattles. If it doesn't pull a powerful deathrattle or sustain, it's a Yeti with stats split over two characters, which is generally worse.
Cabalist's Tome - Massive tempo loss for card advantage. Randomness actually helps balance this card. I see no problem with it.
Ethereal Conjurer - Lousy stats offset powerful battlecry, Discover has been a nearly universally liked mechanic in the game. Sorry, think you're just wrong on this one.
The only really broken card on this list is Yogg. Everything else has a palpable downside, both in terms of stats (or tempo loss in the case of Tome), and the risk that it pulls something utterly useless. Other than Yogg, nothing on this poses stronger RNG than who Rag hits or what minion Sylv steals.
The only cards here I don't see a problem with is Ethereal Conjurer, because its cost is steep and their variance isn't up to scales to Yogg.
Tuskarr Totemic and Barnes are horribly designed *because* of the polarizing variance. Sure, getting basic totems is shitty, as well as getting a shitty low drop minion from barnes. But that's the problem. Cards shouldn't have this much of a variance, because experienced players can't make use of their skills. How do you react to a Totem golem out of tuskarr totemic? You usually just lose the game. How do you react to Barnes getting Ysharrj and getting another minion? You usually just lose the game.
Both ragnaros and Sylvanas are really late game cards with controlled variance. Experienced players can play around sylvanas, and ragnaros only variance is doing 8 damage to the face when worst comes to worst, but come on, its 8 damage for 8 mana. Comparable to a 3 mana with a potential 6/6 worth of stats, this is unacceptable variance based on the cost of the card.
I understand what you're saying, but you're tilting at windmills. It is very clearly evident that Blizzard's design philosophy involves a relatively heavy amount of RNG. No number of nerf threads will change this. In fact, these very cards are the ones that most often drive streaming or replay views and the involvement of casuals, which is a big economic driver for Blizz.
As for the level of variance impacting skilled players - skilled players are likely the ones playing the highest volume of games. Although they may lose one match because Tuskarr rolls a Totem Golem, that 14% interaction simply does not induce any more variance than whether Rag hits a minion threatening lethal or uselessly hits face (or vice versa). If you want to say this is problematic for single-elimination formats, I get it. For ladder play, it's all within more or less the same level of variance.
Yogg, of course, is a different story. One or two random interactions in a turn is one thing. 8-15 is a different story, particularly since it rewards poor resource management and in fact encourages it as a strategy.
As people have replied, variance for a card that can only be played at turn 8 vs. variance that can win you games at turn 3 is *not* the same level of variance. Cards that decide the game this early on by itself is ridiculous. To suggest meaningfully that they're the same is selling short of how insane a 3 mana 6/6 is. Oh, and I'm pretty sure there are few replays of Tuskar Totemic highlights.
I'm simply discussing and exchanging comments with other users here, so I'm not sure why you'd mention tilting at windmills. I'm not suggesting Blizzard to do anything in any of my posts here.
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Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player. Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
It is overly dramatic to suggest that Tuskarr decides the game on its own. Late game cards do actually have game-deciding RNG. Tuskarr didn't even make mainstream shaman lists until Thing from Below was released. If it was so ridiculously OP, it would've easily found its way into pre-standard lists.
It is a well-established fact that the four core Shaman totems are, generally, garbage. A 3/2 + random hero power totem would be permanently consigned to the scrap heap, even with [card]Thing from Below[card] in the meta. Tuskarr is powerful card and certainly a key plank in both of the extremely powerful Shaman decks that are out there; but the real linchpins of those decks lie elsewhere.
I started reading through the responses but most of them where mistakenly confusing this with one of those please nerf threads which it clearly isn't.
Yogg saron is out of control right now and needs to be addressed before blizzcon, people are even playing it in control warrior.
Tuskarr Totemic needs to just spawn basic totems and be good in a totem shaman build, which is clearly what it was designed to do. And not be viable in aggro sahaman.
Barnes, I will reserve my judgement on this card until I see it more being played, i.e. if these barnes decks really are consistent or if it's just a fad. The card shows some aspects of breaking the game, but not consistently enough I think.
Cabalist's Tome, I didn't have a problem with this card until Babbling Book became a card and now I just feel like I have no clue what to do vs these mage decks. I really dislike this card in the same class as babbling book but not as a card on it's own. Furthermore with all of these random cards now, I just keep forgetting what cards in opponents hand are randomly generated and which aren't. In fact I don't even trust my stat tracker for winrates vs. mage, because I can always point to that lucky flame strike or polymorph.
Ethereal Conjurer I really like this card, very weak vs aggro and very good vs control and allows spell based decks a little extra push vs control decks. Also the discover effect can always give you some information, I don't see it as being problematic at all.
Op wants to kill all things fun? And what's with this should and should not have cards in your deck, have you seen burgle rogue?
Hearthstone is the first thriving digital ccg and as such blizz is utilizing what they have at their disposal... Rng. It helps keep the games interesting by forcing you to play on your toes, and it sure isn't going anywhere just look at the new portal cards
Fully get where OP is coming from but I'm inclined to disagree. The crazy RNG stuff is what they want the game to be, ultimately. Would it be a "better" game without all of that? Subjective. The best players would prefer no RNG at all, of course, but we already have Chess if you want to play that game. If the best player wins most of the time, most fish get annihilated and stop playing. Blizzard knows this and hence HS is what it is. Online poker is trying to deal with that issue right now, but that's another thread for another site.
I've taken my share of lumps from those cards you listed and I understand the salt, but that's likely not changing anytime soon so you'd best embrace it. If you're looking for a game that's like HS but more skillful, try Magic. That's what I used to play before I had kids and could travel to the tournaments. If you want the best player to win a big majority of the time, I think that'll work for you.
I understand the business proposition, but I think this kind of argument underestimates the importance of the competitive scene for the success of the game. If the best players can't get consistent results and if teams and pro players start turning their back on the HS scene as a consequence this will deeply hurt the game as a whole. Some pro players are already very upset about cards like Tuskarr, Thijs and Firebat for example, and these are 2 names which you immediately identify with Hearthstone. I think we all know Thijs is not going anywhere for a while because he qualified for Blizzcon but we can see that the state of the game is getting to them and I'm sure players with less success than Thijs are feeling far worse about it right now. They can find a way around this with invitationals perhaps but will that work in the long run?
I am very interested about your suggestion and I think I'm going to look into Magic, what holds me back is the entry cost into a game with so many years and perhaps the additional challenge of finding other players (which I might be overestimating).
If you're ok with an online format, you may want to consider checking out Tabletop Simulator on Steam. It simulates Magic the Gathering pretty well, and since you create the files for the deck object yourself you are able to put whatever MtG cards you want in it, so games are more or less all skill based and not money-based. The online community is decently populated as well, so finding games isn't that hard. It's where I play all my MtG now instead of spending hundreds on cards. Food for thought.
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"Hello. Would you like to destroy some evil today?"
Kill yogg saron, kill this stupid dragon warrior with these damn 9/9s and 3/3 charges, kill aggro/midrange shaman and I will enjoy this game again. I can't play my purify priest with all these counters to death...
Why would you remove cards that have nothing to do with today's meta? Yogg-Saron? F*cking really!? Why not a certain 4 mana 7/7?
Maybe think before posting next time.
Did you really just say that Yogg has nothing to do with the meta? Have you played the game in the last two months?
Yes, I did, and yes, I have. Actually, I just played a couple hours ago. Including yesterday...and pretty much every day since June.
Since Karazhan, I have only been running into Cancer Shamans, Secret Hunters, Mill Rogues, and the odd rando deck. There isn't some secret Yogg meta that is just annihilating the current one. Hell, it doesn't even enhance it.
Yogg is so rare in today's meta, I'm amazed anyone is butthurt about it.
P.S. we already have a thread for complaints like this. Pretty sure it's called the Salt Thread. Maybe check it out?
Ok to be "fair" to both sides of the too much Yogg or Aggro Shaman in the meta arguments. You're both wrong.
In the past week of watching streams, I've seen more of the (high rank) streamers' opponents be Yogg decks than Aggro Shaman, but neither was in a large percentage.
And in my past week of playing middle ranks, I've run into slightly more Aggro Shaman's than Yoggs, basically 2 - 3 Aggro Shamans (didn't see enough of the third ones decks because I crushed them before they played more than 5 cards, of which all could be used in either Midrange or Aggro; and 0 Yoggs (although lots of my games have been ending on turn 8 or 9 but from what i saw of my opponents decks, most didn't seem like one that would run Yogg)
Either I'm incredibly lucky (and that luck somehow rubs off on the streamers in the past when I watch their VODs), somehow all these people complaing about different metas are on a separate server from the rest of us, or people are greatly overstating the percentages of decks they hate in the meta. I can agree that Aggro Shaman and Yogg may both be towards the overpowered side, but neither is something that I think is impossible to play around.
Lol. Before TGT Shaman was at a sad spot. To say Tuskarr Totemic isn't part of the linchpins that holds both aggro shaman and midrange shaman together shows a lack of insight, for which I'll refrain from commenting further on this thread.
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Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player. Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
I mean you must play a big sample size of games in a month is it reasonable to cut cards just because they can highroll (they won't impact as many of your games)? In the large scheme of things it won't matter. I agree that in tournaments you can't leave that to chance. Also random effects could have a positive impact in a game and I will give you an example. Say we remove all (or most) random effects from the game. A card game like Hearthstone is inherently based on RNG, after all the order in which you draw is based on randomness. So just drawing worse than your opponent will lose you the game. Having cards with random effects can get you back into the game (you would have lost without rng).
The way Tuskarr highrolls for example is very bad for the game because you use most of your early resources to deal with Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem, so that when Tuskarr spawns a Manatide for example its going to get way too much value and you still have to allocate 3 damage to kill it at some point. The impact of a 3 mana card highrolling can be game deciding and this shouldn't happen. In the large scheme of things it does matter because a highroll from a 3 mana card can increase your chances to win the game too much and a 3/7 chance to highroll is very significant.
Yogg's chances are harder to evaluate but my experience tells me it often nets way too much value for my opponent.
Drawing RNG is something this game is built around. It has little to do with rolling the dices without compromising for a chance to win (you pay mana to draw cards so you do compromise). Also you can make it better by having more card draw in your deck or by calculating the odds of drawing into a card before deciding on a play. You can't control Yogg, all you can do is add more RNG because you know the more spells you play the more beneficial spells he's going to cast. But also, when you play Tuskarr you are simply cheating the mana curve if you highroll, its not like you drawing into a turn 3 play on turn 3, Tuskarr into Totem Golem is not a fair turn 3. The chances of drawing into the right cards impact the game differently than those of highrolling with cards like Tuskarr. Oh and you don't need to be losing to play Tuskarr! You can just play it and make your opponent more miserable than he already is.
Also some decks have no way to clear a board, so they do need Yogg to get them back into a game they were forced to play reactively, because the opponent's deck was too aggressive and didn't let you develop your game. I am talking mainly about Druid here and I really think the Token deck would be nowhere near to where it is without Yogg especially before Moonglade Portal (which also features randomness).
Finally on this cards like the ones you mention sometimes build new archetypes allowing for new decks, which is what makes a card game interesting. Moving away from RNG would make this harder to do and would eventually lead to massive drops in the player base, which would eventually kill the game completely (definitely something we don't want).
All I have to say to this is that such decks shouldn't exist because Yogg shouldn't exist. Why shouldn't Yogg exist? I think I have answered that question before. Its a bit exhausting to reply to long posts if I have to keep touching the same points so I'll pass. But Yogg is often all the things I stand against, it highrolls while not compromising too much and it sometimes conceals information. Its also too strong.
I think both cards cause a tempo loss you may not recover from in time for it to make a difference though. I.e. I think that there is a chance you get nothing and you sacrificed a lot of tempo, which will make you lose the game. I think it is wrong to always look at the best case scenario without analyzing how often that happens.
Finally, I think your argument has merit on tournaments where you don't want win / loss to be decided by RNG (after all the number of games here is comparatively smaller and so it wouldn't be acceptable to lose on RNG). However, you should consider that the original goal was for Hearthstone to be a casual card game (even though Blizzard decided they wanted the advantages that come with having a competitive side to the game and this is what is causing the split among players)
You can look at Tome and estimate its value, but you are not accounting for the value of concealing information. My opponent has no Flamestrike in their deck so I can simply over extend without being punished. Oh? You got lucky with the Tome and you cleared my board? Should have played around it. Its absolutely unreasnable to think that you can play around ALL mage spells without compromising too much. Concealed information is too powerful and has very little to do with a player's abilities.
Yeah, all these cards would be fine in a casual game which can't even come close to be taken seriously, but look at all the salt threads in here as someone mentioned before. Can you even make a card game enjoyable if you keep adding RNG? I don't know. I do care for the competitive scene tho and all of this is very much against it.
Fully get where OP is coming from but I'm inclined to disagree. The crazy RNG stuff is what they want the game to be, ultimately. Would it be a "better" game without all of that? Subjective. The best players would prefer no RNG at all, of course, but we already have Chess if you want to play that game. If the best player wins most of the time, most fish get annihilated and stop playing. Blizzard knows this and hence HS is what it is. Online poker is trying to deal with that issue right now, but that's another thread for another site.
I've taken my share of lumps from those cards you listed and I understand the salt, but that's likely not changing anytime soon so you'd best embrace it. If you're looking for a game that's like HS but more skillful, try Magic. That's what I used to play before I had kids and could travel to the tournaments. If you want the best player to win a big majority of the time, I think that'll work for you.
I understand the business proposition, but I think this kind of argument underestimates the importance of the competitive scene for the success of the game. If the best players can't get consistent results and if teams and pro players start turning their back on the HS scene as a consequence this will deeply hurt the game as a whole. Some pro players are already very upset about cards like Tuskarr, Thijs and Firebat for example, and these are 2 names which you immediately identify with Hearthstone. I think we all know Thijs is not going anywhere for a while because he qualified for Blizzcon but we can see that the state of the game is getting to them and I'm sure players with less success than Thijs are feeling far worse about it right now. They can find a way around this with invitationals perhaps but will that work in the long run?
I am very interested about your suggestion and I think I'm going to look into Magic, what holds me back is the entry cost into a game with so many years and perhaps the additional challenge of finding other players (which I might be overestimating).
If you're ok with an online format, you may want to consider checking out Tabletop Simulator on Steam. It simulates Magic the Gathering pretty well, and since you create the files for the deck object yourself you are able to put whatever MtG cards you want in it, so games are more or less all skill based and not money-based. The online community is decently populated as well, so finding games isn't that hard. It's where I play all my MtG now instead of spending hundreds on cards. Food for thought.
Oh I will look into this then. It sounds like a much more convenient way of experiencing the game for the first time. Thanks for the suggestion!
Its simple really. You take out cards which are beyond your control and cards which conceal information. The reason? To give the better player a higher chance to win, which every reasonable person will agree to be a good thing.
For example, Yogg is too far beyond your control and playing around it is not only playing around a board wipe, but also often playing around secrets and cards your opponent shouldn't have, and sometimes it nets more value than any other 10 mana card in the game, winning you the match through sheer value. Thus Yogg is both beyond your control and conceals information, which are both things that decrease the chances that the better player wins the game.
With this in mind I'll proceed to make a list of the cards that should be removed from the game in order to make for a fair and more enjoyable competitive experience, tell me if you agree or make suggestions yourself.
In my opinion these are all poorly designed cards which introduce too much variance into the game. It is not good to have your whole game plan disrupted by a card that shouldn't be in your opponen't deck or by a random effect generating too much value without compromising too much (you can play Yogg in decks which work reasonably well without him and you pay ~1 mana for a basic totem from Tuskarr which also helps you reduce Thing). I don't include Raven Idol but perhaps I should?
Yogg-Saron, Hope's End - really bad card for the game. I won't rehash the same thing I and others have said but I agree wholeheartedly that we would be better off without it. This won't happen though, so we should all get over it.
Tuskarr Totemic - Everyone remembers when this card spits out a high value total and forgets how useless it is when it throws out a basic totem. The power level of this card is comparable to Animal Companion - both produce over-statted minions at the cost of randomness. It's really not that bad. This is not the card that makes Aggro Shaman work, and any credible person knows that.
Barnes - there is really only one deck that can stick this into a vanilla list and get consistent value - the now-converged midrange / hybrid hunter, and it's because of all the deathrattles. If it doesn't pull a powerful deathrattle or sustain, it's a Yeti with stats split over two characters, which is generally worse.
Cabalist's Tome - Massive tempo loss for card advantage. Randomness actually helps balance this card. I see no problem with it.
Ethereal Conjurer - Lousy stats offset powerful battlecry, Discover has been a nearly universally liked mechanic in the game. Sorry, think you're just wrong on this one.
The only really broken card on this list is Yogg. Everything else has a palpable downside, both in terms of stats (or tempo loss in the case of Tome), and the risk that it pulls something utterly useless. Other than Yogg, nothing on this poses stronger RNG than who Rag hits or what minion Sylv steals.
But I am not saying that these cards are overpowered. The average value these cards get is fine (except for Tuskarr Totemic and Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, which are both overpowered on average). But you don't compromise for a chance at highrolling and that's a problem. Its not too bad if Tuskarr spawns a basic totem because you get a discount on Thing from Below, and when it highrolls its too good. Token Druid appears to be reasonably good without Yogg, and with Yogg its broken.
Tome and Conjurer are a different matter. They conceal information and that's the problem. I have no way of knowing if my opponent got a Polymorph from Tome and my win condition is going to get screwed because I'm playing cycle C'Thun, or if I can't play my Fireball because he got Counterspell but I should play it because it might be Ice Block and I need him at 1 next turn. You have to compromise too much to play around ALL cards. In the end you can play your chances but you can see how this adds unnecessary RNG to the game.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree. It really took until WoG to make totem synergy a viable angle for Shaman to play. Tuskarr was in the meta for nearly 9 months before it really became controversial with WoG. I just don't see it as the "problem" card in the class. Also, to be realistic, we only have to deal with that card for another 6-7 months. Even if it deserved to be nerfed a la the new witch card, it's not happening.
As for Tome and Conjurer, to make that argument, you really have to extend it to every discover or "gain a random card" play in the game. As someone who would prefer to play a control deck to aggro or midrange once the grind of laddering every month is over, I totally get your frustration with respect to an extra Polymorph or Poly:Boar, but just as often, it will give something much less useful, like Ice Lance or [card]Blizzard[card] when you've just dropped Rag. But if we're honest, these cards just aren't that different than Peddler, Huckster, Thoughtsteal, Burgle, or a litany of other cards.
None of these should be nerfed or banned from ladder (again, besides Yogg, eff that card). If you want to argue that they should be banned in some tournaments in the spirit of emphasizing skill, that's probably a more reasonable discussion. Will be interesting to see how Firebat's ban tourney is received.
I am very interested to see how Batstone is received. That turnament is a breath of fresh air.
I don't think I have to extend my argument to every discover card. The reason is Dark Peddler is fine. You can't disrupt your opponent's entire game plan thanks to a 1 mana card. With mage spells its a different story.
I may have to extend it to Thoughtsteal, Burgle and Undercity Huckster but these cards don't seem to be making a fuss at high level play which is why I didn't think immediately about them. Maybe because Rogue isn't too strong rn and Priest is... Priest. Raven Idol is a problem also because of Fandral if you don't think Druid spells are that good, but I remember some instances where I over extended into Starfall because I wasn't playing around every single Druid card.
In short I don't mind extending my argument, but I believe some discover cards are fine.
I think the issue with this kind of posts is that people that understand the game cannot get the message accross the sea of over simplification and pure stupid that casual players make a fallacy point of. The game has issues right now and there are numbers that validate that, probably next patch Blizzard will try horribly to apeace both sides giving the hardcore gamers the 1% winrate they claim for.
I've been playing faeria lately because HEARTHSTONE HAS ISSUES and it felt so fucking good to destroy shitty players on pandora(arena) and with bad and average cards on the ladder. I could see so clearly the issues with HS, a game that was starting to depress me, because I don't like grinding and I like constructed. And the ladder is just that, grinding and grinding with the 51-55% wr deck of your choice until RNG smiles upon you. You don't feel good when u win either, probably because you got a highroll, and it's the same when you loose. The aggro players go face and the control players whine because the aggro players discovered that u win by killing your oponnent, plus they think they are smarter than aggro players because they play reactive cards... it doesn't take that much skill let's be honest, I agree it takes a bit more skill to react, but it's always hard to let someone pound u in the ass like a passive bitch (I don't consider myself an aggro or control player, I don't give a shit).
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I would say new formats. People always want cards to be nerfed and then complain when they get nerfed to oblivion. So instead of nerfing cards, how about doing what card games like magic do and create new formats in which certain cards are banned. Also to deal with aggression maybe we need more good early game taunts maybe like a 2 mana 3/5 taunt and can't attack, basically an ancient watcher but with one less attack and taunt. I do think it is important to have some powerful cards in card games because if you nerf all of the powerful cards, then you get a really stale meta where there are no threats to play around. I am glad that the fanbase does not have the power to nerf cards otherwise about 50% of the cards would probably end up getting nerfed. People in the past even wanted to nerf Northshire Cleric. Even though it is a strong draw engine for Priest, nerf that card and you may as well delete Priest as a class.
As people have replied, variance for a card that can only be played at turn 8 vs. variance that can win you games at turn 3 is *not* the same level of variance. Cards that decide the game this early on by itself is ridiculous. To suggest meaningfully that they're the same is selling short of how insane a 3 mana 6/6 is. Oh, and I'm pretty sure there are few replays of Tuskar Totemic highlights.
I'm simply discussing and exchanging comments with other users here, so I'm not sure why you'd mention tilting at windmills. I'm not suggesting Blizzard to do anything in any of my posts here.
Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player.
Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
It is overly dramatic to suggest that Tuskarr decides the game on its own. Late game cards do actually have game-deciding RNG. Tuskarr didn't even make mainstream shaman lists until Thing from Below was released. If it was so ridiculously OP, it would've easily found its way into pre-standard lists.
It is a well-established fact that the four core Shaman totems are, generally, garbage. A 3/2 + random hero power totem would be permanently consigned to the scrap heap, even with [card]Thing from Below[card] in the meta. Tuskarr is powerful card and certainly a key plank in both of the extremely powerful Shaman decks that are out there; but the real linchpins of those decks lie elsewhere.
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I agree with OP here.
I started reading through the responses but most of them where mistakenly confusing this with one of those please nerf threads which it clearly isn't.
Yogg saron is out of control right now and needs to be addressed before blizzcon, people are even playing it in control warrior.
Tuskarr Totemic needs to just spawn basic totems and be good in a totem shaman build, which is clearly what it was designed to do. And not be viable in aggro sahaman.
Barnes, I will reserve my judgement on this card until I see it more being played, i.e. if these barnes decks really are consistent or if it's just a fad. The card shows some aspects of breaking the game, but not consistently enough I think.
Cabalist's Tome, I didn't have a problem with this card until Babbling Book became a card and now I just feel like I have no clue what to do vs these mage decks. I really dislike this card in the same class as babbling book but not as a card on it's own.
Furthermore with all of these random cards now, I just keep forgetting what cards in opponents hand are randomly generated and which aren't.
In fact I don't even trust my stat tracker for winrates vs. mage, because I can always point to that lucky flame strike or polymorph.
Ethereal Conjurer I really like this card, very weak vs aggro and very good vs control and allows spell based decks a little extra push vs control decks. Also the discover effect can always give you some information, I don't see it as being problematic at all.
Why would you remove cards that have nothing to do with today's meta? Yogg-Saron? F*cking really!? Why not a certain 4 mana 7/7?
Maybe think before posting next time.
Op wants to kill all things fun? And what's with this should and should not have cards in your deck, have you seen burgle rogue?
Hearthstone is the first thriving digital ccg and as such blizz is utilizing what they have at their disposal... Rng. It helps keep the games interesting by forcing you to play on your toes, and it sure isn't going anywhere just look at the new portal cards
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Kill yogg saron, kill this stupid dragon warrior with these damn 9/9s and 3/3 charges, kill aggro/midrange shaman and I will enjoy this game again. I can't play my purify priest with all these counters to death...
Just remember the good times!
Ok to be "fair" to both sides of the too much Yogg or Aggro Shaman in the meta arguments. You're both wrong.
In the past week of watching streams, I've seen more of the (high rank) streamers' opponents be Yogg decks than Aggro Shaman, but neither was in a large percentage.
And in my past week of playing middle ranks, I've run into slightly more Aggro Shaman's than Yoggs, basically 2 - 3 Aggro Shamans (didn't see enough of the third ones decks because I crushed them before they played more than 5 cards, of which all could be used in either Midrange or Aggro; and 0 Yoggs (although lots of my games have been ending on turn 8 or 9 but from what i saw of my opponents decks, most didn't seem like one that would run Yogg)
Either I'm incredibly lucky (and that luck somehow rubs off on the streamers in the past when I watch their VODs), somehow all these people complaing about different metas are on a separate server from the rest of us, or people are greatly overstating the percentages of decks they hate in the meta. I can agree that Aggro Shaman and Yogg may both be towards the overpowered side, but neither is something that I think is impossible to play around.
Lol. Before TGT Shaman was at a sad spot. To say Tuskarr Totemic isn't part of the linchpins that holds both aggro shaman and midrange shaman together shows a lack of insight, for which I'll refrain from commenting further on this thread.
Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player.
Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
The way Tuskarr highrolls for example is very bad for the game because you use most of your early resources to deal with Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem, so that when Tuskarr spawns a Manatide for example its going to get way too much value and you still have to allocate 3 damage to kill it at some point. The impact of a 3 mana card highrolling can be game deciding and this shouldn't happen. In the large scheme of things it does matter because a highroll from a 3 mana card can increase your chances to win the game too much and a 3/7 chance to highroll is very significant.
Yogg's chances are harder to evaluate but my experience tells me it often nets way too much value for my opponent.
Drawing RNG is something this game is built around. It has little to do with rolling the dices without compromising for a chance to win (you pay mana to draw cards so you do compromise). Also you can make it better by having more card draw in your deck or by calculating the odds of drawing into a card before deciding on a play. You can't control Yogg, all you can do is add more RNG because you know the more spells you play the more beneficial spells he's going to cast. But also, when you play Tuskarr you are simply cheating the mana curve if you highroll, its not like you drawing into a turn 3 play on turn 3, Tuskarr into Totem Golem is not a fair turn 3. The chances of drawing into the right cards impact the game differently than those of highrolling with cards like Tuskarr. Oh and you don't need to be losing to play Tuskarr! You can just play it and make your opponent more miserable than he already is.
All I have to say to this is that such decks shouldn't exist because Yogg shouldn't exist. Why shouldn't Yogg exist? I think I have answered that question before. Its a bit exhausting to reply to long posts if I have to keep touching the same points so I'll pass. But Yogg is often all the things I stand against, it highrolls while not compromising too much and it sometimes conceals information. Its also too strong.
You can look at Tome and estimate its value, but you are not accounting for the value of concealing information. My opponent has no Flamestrike in their deck so I can simply over extend without being punished. Oh? You got lucky with the Tome and you cleared my board? Should have played around it. Its absolutely unreasnable to think that you can play around ALL mage spells without compromising too much. Concealed information is too powerful and has very little to do with a player's abilities.
Yeah, all these cards would be fine in a casual game which can't even come close to be taken seriously, but look at all the salt threads in here as someone mentioned before. Can you even make a card game enjoyable if you keep adding RNG? I don't know. I do care for the competitive scene tho and all of this is very much against it.
I think the issue with this kind of posts is that people that understand the game cannot get the message accross the sea of over simplification and pure stupid that casual players make a fallacy point of. The game has issues right now and there are numbers that validate that, probably next patch Blizzard will try horribly to apeace both sides giving the hardcore gamers the 1% winrate they claim for.
I've been playing faeria lately because HEARTHSTONE HAS ISSUES and it felt so fucking good to destroy shitty players on pandora(arena) and with bad and average cards on the ladder. I could see so clearly the issues with HS, a game that was starting to depress me, because I don't like grinding and I like constructed. And the ladder is just that, grinding and grinding with the 51-55% wr deck of your choice until RNG smiles upon you. You don't feel good when u win either, probably because you got a highroll, and it's the same when you loose. The aggro players go face and the control players whine because the aggro players discovered that u win by killing your oponnent, plus they think they are smarter than aggro players because they play reactive cards... it doesn't take that much skill let's be honest, I agree it takes a bit more skill to react, but it's always hard to let someone pound u in the ass like a passive bitch (I don't consider myself an aggro or control player, I don't give a shit).