Its simple really. You take out cards which are beyond your control and cards which conceal information. The reason? To give the better player a higher chance to win, which every reasonable person will agree to be a good thing.
For example, Yogg is too far beyond your control and playing around it is not only playing around a board wipe, but also often playing around secrets and cards your opponent shouldn't have, and sometimes it nets more value than any other 10 mana card in the game, winning you the match through sheer value. Thus Yogg is both beyond your control and conceals information, which are both things that decrease the chances that the better player wins the game.
With this in mind I'll proceed to make a list of the cards that should be removed from the game in order to make for a fair and more enjoyable competitive experience, tell me if you agree or make suggestions yourself.
In my opinion these are all poorly designed cards which introduce too much variance into the game. It is not good to have your whole game plan disrupted by a card that shouldn't be in your opponen't deck or by a random effect generating too much value without compromising too much (you can play Yogg in decks which work reasonably well without him and you pay ~1 mana for a basic totem from Tuskarr which also helps you reduce Thing). I don't include Raven Idol but perhaps I should?
In my opinion these are all poorly designed cards which introduce too much variance into the game. It is not good to have your whole game plan disrupted by a card that shouldn't be in your opponen't deck or by a random effect generating too much value without compromising too much (you can play Yogg in decks which work reasonably well without him and you pay ~1 mana for a basic totem from Tuskarr which also helps you reduce Thing). I don't include Raven Idol but perhaps I should?
In your opinion? And what makes your opinion so valuable without a single solid argument of why removing these cards would make Hearthstone a better game? And I have more questions.
Tuskarr Totemic is ok to be nerfed, and is reasonable why you might dislike Yogg-saron, but seriously there is no reason for the others. You don't even consider deck building or average potential of the card. What does have cabalist tome and Barnes that make the game completely form your point of view? Why Ethereal Conjurer should be banned and not Undercity Huckster or other value generator cards?
I lose most games by drawing poorly and people having good 1 and 2 drops. yogg kinda fixes that, sometimes.
i hate tirion, lost at least 50 games to him, now with n'zoth and barnes he comes back sometimes more than once...
if you want more consistent win rates from pros than you have to make less changes, less new cards. but then blizzard makes less money.
there is not too much problem at the moment, the problem is that you need many many cards which is not cheap, as well as a lot of time. you need to be able to recognize the current meta at a certain level...
In my opinion these are all poorly designed cards which introduce too much variance into the game. It is not good to have your whole game plan disrupted by a card that shouldn't be in your opponen't deck or by a random effect generating too much value without compromising too much (you can play Yogg in decks which work reasonably well without him and you pay ~1 mana for a basic totem from Tuskarr which also helps you reduce Thing). I don't include Raven Idol but perhaps I should?
In your opinion? And what makes your opinion so valuable without a single solid argument of why removing these cards would make Hearthstone a better game? And I have more questions.
Tuskarr Totemic is ok to be nerfed, and is reasonable why you might dislike Yogg-saron, but seriously there is no reason for the others. You don't even consider deck building or average potential of the card. What does have cabalist tome and Barnes that make the game completely form your point of view? Why Ethereal Conjurer should be banned and not Undercity Huckster or other value generator cards?
If you don't think Tuskarr, Barnes, or Yogg generating too much value without compromising is an argument then there's not much I can tell you. Barnes has the same problem as Tuskarr Totemic, have you played Hoej's Ramp Druid list? If Barnes highrolls in that list you lose the game. Its not necessarily a good competitive list but that's beyond the point.
I made a list but I also asked for suggestions because I'm pretty sure it could be better. The reason why I put Ethereal Conjurer in that list is because you control the outcome so that you might choose a card that will disrupt your opponent's game plan and he wont be able to play around it --- and mage has access to such cards. With Undercity Huckster its far less reliable thats the only reason I didn't put him in the list right away (not that I would mind seeing him go away, I don't like cards which conceal information to this extent).
Wow I had to ignore a lot of trolls to find a comment worthy of even being replied to, maybe I should have found a better website to post this.
So - DISCOVER should be discontinued because you won't know what your opponent picks? That seems really really really ridiculous. You really think this game is better if everyone already knows every card the other person plays, with no surprises?
So - DISCOVER should be discontinued because you won't know what your opponent picks? That seems really really really ridiculous. You really think this game is better if everyone already knows every card the other person plays, with no surprises?
I really don't understand people.
I'll second that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everything that isn't about elephants is irrelephant.
It's the reliable OP cards that are ruining the game right now, not the unreliable ones. We really don't need anymore stupidly OP one (and to some extent two and three) drops for anybody. We might have to wait until tunnel trogg and totem golem rotates out, but we really do not need blizzard to introduce similar to priest and rogue to 'fix' them. Blizzard must get back to encouraging interaction between decks.
So - DISCOVER should be discontinued because you won't know what your opponent picks? That seems really really really ridiculous. You really think this game is better if everyone already knows every card the other person plays, with no surprises?
I really don't understand people.
No I think Dark Peddler is fine because it can't disrupt your opponent's entire game plan. But winning thanks a card that isn't in your deck isn't fine because in some cases your opponent can't even play around it. And yes, I think this game is at its highest level when everyone knows every card the other person plays. The competitive scene has already realized this and some major tournaments reveal all the player's decklists to the players before the tournament begins --- that includes the prelims. Having information is a good thing so long as you're not a gambler looking for unfair advantages.
So - DISCOVER should be discontinued because you won't know what your opponent picks? That seems really really really ridiculous. You really think this game is better if everyone already knows every card the other person plays, with no surprises?
I really don't understand people.
No I think Dark Peddler is fine because it can't disrupt your opponent's entire game plan. But winning thanks a card that isn't in your deck isn't fine because in some cases your opponent can't even play around it. And yes, I think this game is at its highest level when everyone knows every card the other person plays. The competitive scene has already realized this and some major tournaments reveal all the player's decklists to the players before the tournament begins --- that includes the prelims. Having information is a good thing so long as you're not a gambler looking for unfair advantages.
So you're saying you want every deck to be predictable?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everything that isn't about elephants is irrelephant.
Wow I had to ignore a lot of trolls to find a comment worthy of even being replied to, maybe I should have found a better website to post this.
As a person whose just started using this site recently, it seems like there are way too many of these "_______ is OP" threads. And assuming there were still this many be posted all the time before I came to this site, I can see why people would get sick of replying to these kinds of thread with non-trolly responses. Heck so many people in one of the "Aggro is OP" threads kept trying to explain how control is favored against Aggro, but loses to midrange, and all the people whining about Aggro being OP kept ignoring those points.
Personally I see "concealing information" as an integral part of card game strategy. And I think the design of Yogg is interesting when you have to play around cards that you wouldn't normally have to play around (not so much when Yogg just outright wins someone the game but requiring more thought about plays from the opponent is something I'm fine with).
Yeah, and also you should be able to put in the order in which you draw the cards, hate that random factor when you don't know what card you will draw next and what starting hand you will get, it's no skillz whatsoever, it's just a random card that you happend to adjust to on the fly. It's like the game testes you on adjustability and that's no real skill. That's just a subpar part skill and not a real skill. Like being good at moving the leg forward but not back, hence making you worthless at running, but hey, you are good at moving the leg forward....
So - DISCOVER should be discontinued because you won't know what your opponent picks? That seems really really really ridiculous. You really think this game is better if everyone already knows every card the other person plays, with no surprises?
I really don't understand people.
No I think Dark Peddler is fine because it can't disrupt your opponent's entire game plan. But winning thanks a card that isn't in your deck isn't fine because in some cases your opponent can't even play around it. And yes, I think this game is at its highest level when everyone knows every card the other person plays. The competitive scene has already realized this and some major tournaments reveal all the player's decklists to the players before the tournament begins --- that includes the prelims. Having information is a good thing so long as you're not a gambler looking for unfair advantages.
So you're saying you want every deck to be predictable?
Wow I had to ignore a lot of trolls to find a comment worthy of even being replied to, maybe I should have found a better website to post this.
As a person whose just started using this site recently, it seems like there are way too many of these "_______ is OP" threads. And assuming there were still this many be posted all the time before I came to this site, I can see why people would get sick of replying to these kinds of thread with non-trolly responses. Heck so many people in one of the "Aggro is OP" threads kept trying to explain how control is favored against Aggro, but loses to midrange, and all the people whining about Aggro being OP kept ignoring those points.
Personally I see "concealing information" as an integral part of card game strategy. And I think the design of Yogg is interesting when you have to play around cards that you wouldn't normally have to play around (not so much when Yogg just outright wins someone the game but requiring more thought about plays from the opponent is something I'm fine with).
I'm sure they are just kids, I didn't mean to start a discussion over something I can easily despise.
You can't play around a Yogg which casts Cabalist's Tome and Burgle and its a card you play and hope it nets you an unholy amount of value, its not in your control which I think is not a good thing.
I'd like to see this game being about skill and "concealing information" is in the way. There has to be concealed information in a card game but not to the extent of Cabalist's Tome where you are not even playing with your deck anymore.
Fully get where OP is coming from but I'm inclined to disagree. The crazy RNG stuff is what they want the game to be, ultimately. Would it be a "better" game without all of that? Subjective. The best players would prefer no RNG at all, of course, but we already have Chess if you want to play that game. If the best player wins most of the time, most fish get annihilated and stop playing. Blizzard knows this and hence HS is what it is. Online poker is trying to deal with that issue right now, but that's another thread for another site.
I've taken my share of lumps from those cards you listed and I understand the salt, but that's likely not changing anytime soon so you'd best embrace it. If you're looking for a game that's like HS but more skillful, try Magic. That's what I used to play before I had kids and could travel to the tournaments. If you want the best player to win a big majority of the time, I think that'll work for you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Its simple really. You take out cards which are beyond your control and cards which conceal information. The reason? To give the better player a higher chance to win, which every reasonable person will agree to be a good thing.
For example, Yogg is too far beyond your control and playing around it is not only playing around a board wipe, but also often playing around secrets and cards your opponent shouldn't have, and sometimes it nets more value than any other 10 mana card in the game, winning you the match through sheer value. Thus Yogg is both beyond your control and conceals information, which are both things that decrease the chances that the better player wins the game.
With this in mind I'll proceed to make a list of the cards that should be removed from the game in order to make for a fair and more enjoyable competitive experience, tell me if you agree or make suggestions yourself.
In my opinion these are all poorly designed cards which introduce too much variance into the game. It is not good to have your whole game plan disrupted by a card that shouldn't be in your opponen't deck or by a random effect generating too much value without compromising too much (you can play Yogg in decks which work reasonably well without him and you pay ~1 mana for a basic totem from Tuskarr which also helps you reduce Thing). I don't include Raven Idol but perhaps I should?
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/28947-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-steam-mega-salty?page=1240#c25829
seriously. dont make a new thread. you are salty. please. There are SO MANY threads like this.
The best way to solve problems is to create more problems until you are dead
Funniest post ever... lol... had a nice laugh.
Woeden#1173 - NA
Just stop printing retarded cards that push toxic playstyles. Things like Tunnel Trogg, 4mana 7/7 or that 1/5 -->>99/5 minion that warlocks got.
I lose most games by drawing poorly and people having good 1 and 2 drops. yogg kinda fixes that, sometimes.
i hate tirion, lost at least 50 games to him, now with n'zoth and barnes he comes back sometimes more than once...
if you want more consistent win rates from pros than you have to make less changes, less new cards. but then blizzard makes less money.
there is not too much problem at the moment, the problem is that you need many many cards which is not cheap, as well as a lot of time. you need to be able to recognize the current meta at a certain level...
If you're losing the majority of your games through bad draws then that might be a problem with your deck.
I have a better suggestion. What if we just remove whiners from the game somehow?
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
So - DISCOVER should be discontinued because you won't know what your opponent picks? That seems really really really ridiculous. You really think this game is better if everyone already knows every card the other person plays, with no surprises?
I really don't understand people.
Oh, Yogg killed me as many times as many times he won me a game.
Funniest was playing "Fully heal all characters" when I had Auchenai Soulpriest out.
--Alfi--
Everything that isn't about elephants is irrelephant.
It's the reliable OP cards that are ruining the game right now, not the unreliable ones. We really don't need anymore stupidly OP one (and to some extent two and three) drops for anybody. We might have to wait until tunnel trogg and totem golem rotates out, but we really do not need blizzard to introduce similar to priest and rogue to 'fix' them. Blizzard must get back to encouraging interaction between decks.
Everything that isn't about elephants is irrelephant.
Fully get where OP is coming from but I'm inclined to disagree. The crazy RNG stuff is what they want the game to be, ultimately. Would it be a "better" game without all of that? Subjective. The best players would prefer no RNG at all, of course, but we already have Chess if you want to play that game. If the best player wins most of the time, most fish get annihilated and stop playing. Blizzard knows this and hence HS is what it is. Online poker is trying to deal with that issue right now, but that's another thread for another site.
I've taken my share of lumps from those cards you listed and I understand the salt, but that's likely not changing anytime soon so you'd best embrace it. If you're looking for a game that's like HS but more skillful, try Magic. That's what I used to play before I had kids and could travel to the tournaments. If you want the best player to win a big majority of the time, I think that'll work for you.