TL;DR - Can/should hunter define the meta? Why or why not?
I know we still have to see the last expansion of this year before we go making final decisions, but with the recent nerfs and noted bump up in Hunter usage recently, could it be that hunter has the tools to become a meta definer once again? And do you think Hunter could ever define a healthy meta?
With so many great tools that don't fit into the aggro and midrange builds currently going around right now, I just question if it could happen. Abominable Bowman is a fascinating card, but it's unwieldy in Hunter. Swamp King Dred is a great card, but in Hunter it feels too big and tends to eat up a slot that could offer more early game and burst options, or more sticking power. Poison Arrow seems to be a spell totally lost in hunter at the moment; there aren't enough 3-health minions that could truly justify an Arcane Shot that give the target Poisonous that hunter could reasonably use in place of the smaller and more effective minions, and the bigger ones rarely need Poisonous to clear by the time they're on the board (they're usually jamming face and applying pressure). Giant Sand Worm seems to have become a meme card, generated by Free From Amber and Jeweled Macaw, not a reliable tool for hunter's current fast and sticky boards. These are all cards I'd love to see find a home in ladder matches outside of Trolden highlight reels. They each have fantastic abilities and could easily outvalue other decks if only they had the support for a slower (dare I say control-oriented?) hunter. And yes, I'm aware of the difficulties in designing around face hunter, since any reliable card draw or removal/burn spells could easily be abused for a return to turn 4 losses to "me go face" SMOrc barrages. This is part of why I wonder if it's possible for a hunter-influenced meta to happen.
I ask because I know there are many players with deeper insights to the game than I have. I've only been playing since a few months before Old Gods was announced, and I'm still learning to see my lines in matches, and still learning how to build my own decks without relying on net decking all the time.
So, do you think Hunter can and will have a part in defining the meta?
UPDATE: Looks like Hunter has hit tier 1, albeit without those cards I love so dearly and see so rarely! But that's ok, because I love mid-range hunter.
Now the question is, "Is this a healthy hunter to have with tier 1 power?" Often I see hunter builds that run obvious face structure but throw Highmanes and a Hydra or two in and claim "mid-range" (though they lack any true slower gameplay to legitimize that claim). And is it good to encourage these face hunter builds? I'm tempted to say NO given face hunter's history as a cancer and oppressive deck, but I also don't believe in limiting an archetype in a class to always being bad for the game; we need aggro as much as we need mid-range and control to keep the game balanced and fun.
As far as I understand the community insights, it seems that Hunter is currently the anti-meta, the counter to meta-defining decks.
There is room for it to become similar to WOG Shaman, but unless it gains an unstoppable start, it will stay a strong and versatile deck that however does not set hard limits against archetypes (which is how you define meta, literally).
That is, unless it gets a (1) 1/3 Beast-synergy or similar, it won't bend and define the meta.
To answer your question, Hunter can definitely become meta defining, but not as a control variant. The best hunter build at the moment is a mid-range deck that just plays strong threats that you have to answer every turn. You do have a few Face Hunters going around, but they are not the norm. I think of it like Karazhan Shaman which had the ability to play an insane card every turn that you had to find a way to deal with. Hunter is on the verge of becoming that and I am happy if it does. That style of play is what most of the control decks that see now have a problem with answering because they eventually run out of answers if you can keep the pressure on and never overextend.
First of all let my explain your desired cards to be played.
1.Abominable Bowman is really good actually. Most of the people pretend it to summon a 1/1 body or a Macaw.WRONG. It is nuts in a slower deathrattle hunter with few beasts that are good to summon such as Corpse Widdow, Savannah Highmane the 5/5 Devilsaur from the Devilsaur's Egg or Arfus and afterall a 2/2 Hyena isn't that bad even it has a low chance. An other type of deck is simply Big Hunter where i use Swamp King Dread, Arfus, Highmane, the Bowman and play dead as the key targets. (see the screenshot)
2.Swamp King Dread is also not the worst pick in a midrange deck to help you in the late game while you to keep the board control or to make it. Most of the people don't know how to play around him and just play battlecries just forgetting about his effect.
4.Giant Sand Worm will rotate as well so i see no point on evaluing him.
Afterall, hunter is my favourite class and i managed to build some cool decks with him. I am really confident in getting a new weapon with deathrattle in the next expansion and some good tools to get him out of the trash place.
Thanks! I do love all those cards, I'm just now learning to build decks myself and evaluate the meta, so appreciate breakdowns like this. And hunter is my favorite class as well; I've always enjoyed the challenge of trying to make it work regardless of the meta. Glad to find a fellow hunter fan.
Would you mind giving your thoughts on Giant Sand Worm in the current meta? I've had it since it released and never found a way to use it when it's part of a deck, and I'm wondering if it's worth concerning myself over (since rotation is still approximately 6 months away).
And that deathrattle weapon has been a dream of mine for a while now. Here's to hoping.
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
To be honest Giand Sand Worm is potentially the slowest cards from all that you reguested. I play hs since august last year and back then i got excited by old gods and also by the Sandworm becouse of its effect that could attack again. It has a good potential to control the board by a 9 mana combo with Bestial Wrath. I tried a couple of times to make it work but to waste you mana for an 8 8 in a single turn seemed pretty worthless and sometimes he either didnt survived or my opponent's board was empty. In the current meta it wont work even tho it is slightly a slower meta than the Un Goro meta. IMO Swamp King Dread is an improved version of sandworm (since the effect are quite simmilar) that can assure the board controll when he is played, 1mana less and +1/+1 in stats are so valuable.
atm i am wondering to craft Keleseth for completing my quest hunter, i ll do it in about 2 weeks or less bcs i am quite busy atm. Let me know of you got some interesting ideas with the sand worm or other hunter cards. Have a nice day!
So far I've considered Giant Sand Worm + Crackling Razormaw on turn 10 in a midrange deck to hunt for anti-spell/hero power, divine shield, or stealth to preserve it until the next turn, then Bestial Wrath if needed to clear the board and push face damage. I think I'll brainstorm this with my buddy and see what we can come up with for a Giant Sand Worm hunter build.
I've tried Prince Keleseth in quest hunter and it can be very fun! A bit tricky when you can't run some of the powerful 2-costs that hunter has, but I'm sure there's a way to make it work. I actually have found Hemet Quest Hunter to work great (Frodan's build) and had some real staying power if you could keep the pressure up. Once you can effectively use Deathstalker Rexxar, the value the deck has is incredible (it run's N'Zoth as well).
Best of luck! I hope the Keleseth quest hunter works out if you end up crafting it!
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
As someone who really loves to play Hunter, I think we just have to understand an accept its limitations, and know when its good to play it, and when its not so good.
Hunter is a great aggro deck, with a splash of control ... mainly just due to it having a lot of minions, and a couple decent spells, that allow you to trade wisely when necessary, and not run out of minions quite as quick as some other aggro decks. It can also take great advantage of most tech cards, since for a hunter, to a better extent than other classes, it can use most tech cards as just a body if necessary, without having as much tempo loss.
But it has a serious flaw in not having a reliable board wipe, especially in late game scenarios when most minions on the board are going to be well above the 2-3 heath threshold.
So in a slow meta, it does really good by having a constant ramp, and being able to apply pressure in an almost constant manner. At later ranks, it can be great, because if you start seeing a very high number of matches against one deck, it can make great use of tech cards to help beat that specific deck.
But, will it become T1? I don't think so. The lack of board clear is always going to hold it back. Not having a reliable way to regain a lost board is a major issue. If we ever get a good board wipe ... Hunter could jump the ranks quite quickly ... maybe too quickly, which could explain why we don't have one.
Hunter is a deck that I think every player should have, and should work to master. If nothing else, it is one of the best ways to practice and learn quality trading, which can be applied to any class. It is also a great deck to switch to if you start seeing a specific deck over and over at your point on the ladder.
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I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
Tiers are stupid, but Hunter won't be the top. That's gonna belong to Priest and what's left of Aggro Druid, since despite Innervate being nerfed, they're still doing turn one Flappy Bird.
The only thing keeping Hunter alive right now is the Death Knight. Hopefully for the third expansion Blizzard will release tools Hunter needs: AoE, card draw, new weapons.
I have a failrly basic f2p Hunter deck that handles pretty well in Standard, and much better in Wild as it got me to rank twelve there. But for the last push for ten I had to switch back to my Paladin. Though hunters aren’t the best, they are fun to play in my experience.
FWIW - BB and Donais both posted on the subreddit, and explained in a couple of interviews, that Hunter was the top class to emerge from Un'Goro. Looking at the HSReplays numbers, and the stats from VS and Metastats, Hunter was often at the top from ranks 20-6, where 95% of players are "stuck." The numbers also suggested that the win-rate for Hunter tanked by about 4% from ranks 5 through Legend - IIRC, Donais had a lengthy interview on Omnistone, with Kibler and Firebat, explaining some of the difficulties involved in balancing a class that "average" players can abuse, while "good" players find too weak to pilot competitively. A few nerfs, and a couple new cards have given MR Hunter a better early game, as well as plays after turn six. Given the history of the class, it isn't surprising that it is currently near the top of the food chain in both Standard and Wild, looking at the numbers on the HSReplays homepage. It is certainly a far more interactive deck to compete against than the aggro decks which have squeezed it out of the meta for the past year or so. However - it also seems likely that the community will begin bitching in another week or two, if Hunter continues to improve on ladder.
So, you want hunter to become the same thing as shaman last year? Because that's exactly what's going to happen. Classes NEED some sort of a weakness so they don't get degenerate and toxic,
To be tier 1, a deck has to do very unfair things. The OP mentions a lot of cards which are supposed to support a control play style for hunter. I am sorry, but control has never been the hunter's strong side, and even a very good DK does not make up for it. Plenty of other attempts have been made as well.
I think the problems are 2-fold:
-The hunter heropower is the complete opposite of control. The DK actually has pretty bad synergy with the class, as he requires you to completely change the gameplan when you play him.
-The core set has some very strong cards, Kill Command, Animal Companion, Eaglehorn Bow and Savannah Highmane. The downside? They are all very strong midrange cards, which showed when Call of the Wild was the perfect finisher at the top of the curve, or when 2-mana Starving Buzzard let you draw every answer, or even when Undertaker started an almost unstoppable snowball. Those 4 classic cards played big parts in all of those decks. Making control hunter viable makes the class lose it's identity, and even stronger (broken?) control cards would have to be released, to make up for the anti-synergy of the heropower. That being said, it is still a very good class, Crackling Razormaw is an extremely strong card, but for now, the destiny is anti-control midrange or aggro.
So, you want hunter to become the same thing as shaman last year? Because that's exactly what's going to happen. Classes NEED some sort of a weakness so they don't get degenerate and toxic,
no, that's a stretch. If we only see tier 1 decks as oppressive and miserably obnoxious to face, then maybe our expectations of tier 1 decks is mindless power. Just follow the plays you always play with some choices here and there and let the deck do the rest!
That's not what I want for any class ever. I am asking if hunter could ever help define the meta outside of this anti-meta position it currently holds (which I'm actually enjoying!). I mean, DO you think it's possible for the class to hold sway over how the meta shapes and still have a healthy meta?
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
To be tier 1, a deck has to do very unfair things. The OP mentions a lot of cards which are supposed to support a control play style for hunter. I am sorry, but control has never been the hunter's strong side, and even a very good DK does not make up for it. Plenty of other attempts have been made as well.
I think the problems are 2-fold:
-The hunter heropower is the complete opposite of control. The DK actually has pretty bad synergy with the class, as he requires you to completely change the gameplan when you play him.
-The core set has some very strong cards, Kill Command, Animal Companion, Eaglehorn Bow and Savannah Highmane. The downside? They are all very strong midrange cards, which showed when Call of the Wild was the perfect finisher at the top of the curve, or when 2-mana Starving Buzzard let you draw every answer, or even when Undertaker started an almost unstoppable snowball. Those 4 classic cards played big parts in all of those decks. Making control hunter viable makes the class lose it's identity, and even stronger (broken?) control cards would have to be released, to make up for the anti-synergy of the heropower. That being said, it is still a very good class, Crackling Razormaw is an extremely strong card, but for now, the destiny is anti-control midrange or aggro.
Good points! I have one question: do you think tier 1 decks have to be unfair to be tier 1? I figured that was what Tier S was for (like our recent druid overlords showed us). I know it's a level of deck build that is incredibly tight and powerful, but I'm not sure every tier 1 deck is unfair to face or Blizzard would get way more serious complaints about those decks that they'd have to address.
I mean, I loathe facing pirate warrior (as an example), but it can be beat by multiple classes if the counter can be met when facing them.
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Hunter has some seriously strong mid to late game cards, but no way to get to board/health states required to play them. It would only take a few cards to change this.
But for now hunter is in a pretty strong place in the meta.
TL;DR - Can/should hunter define the meta? Why or why not?
I know we still have to see the last expansion of this year before we go making final decisions, but with the recent nerfs and noted bump up in Hunter usage recently, could it be that hunter has the tools to become a meta definer once again? And do you think Hunter could ever define a healthy meta?
With so many great tools that don't fit into the aggro and midrange builds currently going around right now, I just question if it could happen. Abominable Bowman is a fascinating card, but it's unwieldy in Hunter. Swamp King Dred is a great card, but in Hunter it feels too big and tends to eat up a slot that could offer more early game and burst options, or more sticking power. Poison Arrow seems to be a spell totally lost in hunter at the moment; there aren't enough 3-health minions that could truly justify an Arcane Shot that give the target Poisonous that hunter could reasonably use in place of the smaller and more effective minions, and the bigger ones rarely need Poisonous to clear by the time they're on the board (they're usually jamming face and applying pressure). Giant Sand Worm seems to have become a meme card, generated by Free From Amber and Jeweled Macaw, not a reliable tool for hunter's current fast and sticky boards. These are all cards I'd love to see find a home in ladder matches outside of Trolden highlight reels. They each have fantastic abilities and could easily outvalue other decks if only they had the support for a slower (dare I say control-oriented?) hunter. And yes, I'm aware of the difficulties in designing around face hunter, since any reliable card draw or removal/burn spells could easily be abused for a return to turn 4 losses to "me go face" SMOrc barrages. This is part of why I wonder if it's possible for a hunter-influenced meta to happen.
I ask because I know there are many players with deeper insights to the game than I have. I've only been playing since a few months before Old Gods was announced, and I'm still learning to see my lines in matches, and still learning how to build my own decks without relying on net decking all the time.
So, do you think Hunter can and will have a part in defining the meta?
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UPDATE: Looks like Hunter has hit tier 1, albeit without those cards I love so dearly and see so rarely! But that's ok, because I love mid-range hunter.
Now the question is, "Is this a healthy hunter to have with tier 1 power?" Often I see hunter builds that run obvious face structure but throw Highmanes and a Hydra or two in and claim "mid-range" (though they lack any true slower gameplay to legitimize that claim). And is it good to encourage these face hunter builds? I'm tempted to say NO given face hunter's history as a cancer and oppressive deck, but I also don't believe in limiting an archetype in a class to always being bad for the game; we need aggro as much as we need mid-range and control to keep the game balanced and fun.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
As far as I understand the community insights, it seems that Hunter is currently the anti-meta, the counter to meta-defining decks.
There is room for it to become similar to WOG Shaman, but unless it gains an unstoppable start, it will stay a strong and versatile deck that however does not set hard limits against archetypes (which is how you define meta, literally).
That is, unless it gets a (1) 1/3 Beast-synergy or similar, it won't bend and define the meta.
As long as Highlander priest is a thing, it doesn't stand a chance
#nerfbarnes
To answer your question, Hunter can definitely become meta defining, but not as a control variant. The best hunter build at the moment is a mid-range deck that just plays strong threats that you have to answer every turn. You do have a few Face Hunters going around, but they are not the norm. I think of it like Karazhan Shaman which had the ability to play an insane card every turn that you had to find a way to deal with. Hunter is on the verge of becoming that and I am happy if it does. That style of play is what most of the control decks that see now have a problem with answering because they eventually run out of answers if you can keep the pressure on and never overextend.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
I would love it if Hunter and Rogue became viable classes again. By far my favourite duo.
I wasn't planning on going for a run today. But those cops came out of nowhere.
As someone who really loves to play Hunter, I think we just have to understand an accept its limitations, and know when its good to play it, and when its not so good.
Hunter is a great aggro deck, with a splash of control ... mainly just due to it having a lot of minions, and a couple decent spells, that allow you to trade wisely when necessary, and not run out of minions quite as quick as some other aggro decks. It can also take great advantage of most tech cards, since for a hunter, to a better extent than other classes, it can use most tech cards as just a body if necessary, without having as much tempo loss.
But it has a serious flaw in not having a reliable board wipe, especially in late game scenarios when most minions on the board are going to be well above the 2-3 heath threshold.
So in a slow meta, it does really good by having a constant ramp, and being able to apply pressure in an almost constant manner. At later ranks, it can be great, because if you start seeing a very high number of matches against one deck, it can make great use of tech cards to help beat that specific deck.
But, will it become T1? I don't think so. The lack of board clear is always going to hold it back. Not having a reliable way to regain a lost board is a major issue. If we ever get a good board wipe ... Hunter could jump the ranks quite quickly ... maybe too quickly, which could explain why we don't have one.
Hunter is a deck that I think every player should have, and should work to master. If nothing else, it is one of the best ways to practice and learn quality trading, which can be applied to any class. It is also a great deck to switch to if you start seeing a specific deck over and over at your point on the ladder.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
Tiers are stupid, but Hunter won't be the top. That's gonna belong to Priest and what's left of Aggro Druid, since despite Innervate being nerfed, they're still doing turn one Flappy Bird.
The only thing keeping Hunter alive right now is the Death Knight. Hopefully for the third expansion Blizzard will release tools Hunter needs: AoE, card draw, new weapons.
I have a failrly basic f2p Hunter deck that handles pretty well in Standard, and much better in Wild as it got me to rank twelve there. But for the last push for ten I had to switch back to my Paladin. Though hunters aren’t the best, they are fun to play in my experience.
Bleed Blue.
FWIW - BB and Donais both posted on the subreddit, and explained in a couple of interviews, that Hunter was the top class to emerge from Un'Goro. Looking at the HSReplays numbers, and the stats from VS and Metastats, Hunter was often at the top from ranks 20-6, where 95% of players are "stuck." The numbers also suggested that the win-rate for Hunter tanked by about 4% from ranks 5 through Legend - IIRC, Donais had a lengthy interview on Omnistone, with Kibler and Firebat, explaining some of the difficulties involved in balancing a class that "average" players can abuse, while "good" players find too weak to pilot competitively. A few nerfs, and a couple new cards have given MR Hunter a better early game, as well as plays after turn six. Given the history of the class, it isn't surprising that it is currently near the top of the food chain in both Standard and Wild, looking at the numbers on the HSReplays homepage. It is certainly a far more interactive deck to compete against than the aggro decks which have squeezed it out of the meta for the past year or so. However - it also seems likely that the community will begin bitching in another week or two, if Hunter continues to improve on ladder.
So, you want hunter to become the same thing as shaman last year? Because that's exactly what's going to happen. Classes NEED some sort of a weakness so they don't get degenerate and toxic,
What are you guys talking about ?
Hunter is nowhere near tear 1 . It's tear 2 at best . It only wins with very good RNG or bad opponents .
To be tier 1, a deck has to do very unfair things. The OP mentions a lot of cards which are supposed to support a control play style for hunter. I am sorry, but control has never been the hunter's strong side, and even a very good DK does not make up for it. Plenty of other attempts have been made as well.
I think the problems are 2-fold:
-The hunter heropower is the complete opposite of control. The DK actually has pretty bad synergy with the class, as he requires you to completely change the gameplan when you play him.
-The core set has some very strong cards, Kill Command, Animal Companion, Eaglehorn Bow and Savannah Highmane. The downside? They are all very strong midrange cards, which showed when Call of the Wild was the perfect finisher at the top of the curve, or when 2-mana Starving Buzzard let you draw every answer, or even when Undertaker started an almost unstoppable snowball. Those 4 classic cards played big parts in all of those decks. Making control hunter viable makes the class lose it's identity, and even stronger (broken?) control cards would have to be released, to make up for the anti-synergy of the heropower. That being said, it is still a very good class, Crackling Razormaw is an extremely strong card, but for now, the destiny is anti-control midrange or aggro.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Hunter has some seriously strong mid to late game cards, but no way to get to board/health states required to play them. It would only take a few cards to change this.
But for now hunter is in a pretty strong place in the meta.
Im on a winstreak from rank 15 to 8 in about 4 hours with hunter.
Lost the streak when i faced my same deck.