Here's the part that bothers me... I get the whole set to 5/5... but when you play spells to lower attack or polymorph and stuff like that, it should cancel the effect and not make a god damn 5/5 taunt from Hex. FIX IT!
Stat manipulation spells such as Humility or Hunter's Mark do work though because they are not creating new minions, it is Transform spells that re-create 5/5's with different names, types, and abilities.
Though it seems like a small change and many think that it will take only one turn more to complete the quest - it won't. A lot more things will have to click into place to play a minion five times. I must say that i'm happy about it since it opens possibilities for some slower quest rogue variants. Playing the existing variants with new rules will slow down quest competition by two to three turns which gives slower decks enough time to prepare or set up lethal. Aggro will be destroying it even more ofc.
Definitely keeps it more aligned with the other quests, even if it dooms it to be non-competetive. It's still the fastest quest to complete, but just disables those dream turn 2/3 rewards. It's a good change.
The difference between 4 and 5 minions of the same name could be huge, as Dirty Rat is more of a threat now, which may have been the point. Going forward Crystal Rogue decks may need to work in a second win condition somehow in case that happens, but there already wasn't much room to fit much of anything optional in the deck. I'll have to return to my Finja Crystal Rogue deck to see if that still works.
Flame Elemental stuff might become even more of a requirement but we might see people try bounce targets that you can discover more of. In a recent wild casual game I lost my last Swashburglar at 3/4's completion but was able to make the switch over to Undercity Huckster because I had two in the deck and had gotten a copy of Journey Below (for a third Huckster) from the first Swashburglar.
I'd honestly rather see a nerf to Jade Idol. While the Quest Rogue nerf opens up the meta to control decks, Jade druid is just sooooo strong against every other control deck. Quest Rogue was sometimes beatable as control, but Jade Druid has the ultimate end game.
I see what blizz is trying to do, but it seems like a nerf in the wrong direction. It only will make things a bit better for control, and way better for aggro which was already strong against quest rogue. I use a quest rogue deck with Wisp, so I think maybe this will hurt a little less, but it may be the case that elemental synergy with Fire Fly and Igneous Elemental will become necessary to consistently reach 5 copies played.
I, personally, seriously doubt this deck had as a big of a strangling effect on the meta as its detractors presume.
1) The deck never had a very impressive win rate.
2) It showed a large performance gap between high and low ranks - from this we can conclude it actually had a significant skill ceiling. Most posters on here would agree having decks that reward skill is good.
3) It is a "meta-call" deck - it hard counters certain decks and is weak to others, which means, again, that choosing to pilot it (or to pilot a counter deck if it becomes too prevalent) rewards skill (in a meta reading sense).
Now there are a few common strikes against the deck
A) The deck is "not fun" to play against. The problem, here, is that fun is subjective. I love playing against Quest Rogue, as it forces you to adapt your game plan to their deck. Many players hate playing against Freeze mage (or any other combo deck) and yet it doesn't get nerfed.
B) The deck closes games "too quickly". What is "too quickly"? Old Face Hunter, old Aggro Shaman, current Pirate Warrior or Token Druid, there are many decks who regularly end games even more quickly than Quest Rogue, They punish greedy lists and plays.
C) The deck allows "no counterplay". Well, this is Hearthstone. There is next to no counterplay at all in the game. Still, there are ways ti disrupt Quest Rogue, so I feel this comes from ignorance.
D) The deck "pushes control out of the meta". Really, now? I get that it's a polarizing deck, but a deck with 5-10 % presence alone cannot push entire archetypes out of the meta. And still, even if Quest Rogue should disappear, Jade Druid is there to take its place as the "anti-control" meta call.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, from a purely competitive, analytical viewpoint, Quest Rogue certainly didn't deserve a nerf. The effect it has (if it has any) on the meta can be replicated by other decks, it actually requires some measure of skill, it doesn't win that often or that fast, and is actually easy to counter.
But, well, people hate it. So there goes the ban-hammer. I get it, it's an intelligent business decision - heck, MtG also banned entire archetypes because they were so hated that they could see drops in tournament attendance. It's just disappointing, because it shows how little actual game balance actually matters for the playerbase - and by extension, for Blizzard.
Nah, Quest Rogue was at best 50% in the current meta. A 5th bounce will be (most likely) crippling. @Jazzfan put it best, try playing Quest Rogue right now and just don't play the quest until you get a 5th bounce. Quest is as good as 1600 dust.
With that change, the aggressive take on quest rogue is probably dead. One minion more is a huge deal. Maybe a midrange deck will arise, that uses more early game defense and Shadowcaster to bounce and replay value minions like Vilespine Slayer... But I doubt it. Not a bad thing, though.
this nerf dont change the things vs control. now agro deck win more fast and control deck must wait a little bit more to lose. but always you can concede :D
Oh, this nerfs Quest Rogue into oblivion. It's gone now.
I wouldn't say it's gone, but this nerf is pointless. Questrogue was already weak against aggro and this nerf makes it worse against them, but Questrogue can still destroy slower decks.
The real problem is the charge mechanic. Is it balance to get 25+ Damage in one or two turns?
Quest Rogue is still meant to destroy slower decks. They're not trying to change that. What they're trying to do is make it so it can't compete against faster decks by playing useless tokens. As it stands, it can still beat some aggro decks if it gets good draws. This nerf will result in one of three things happening:
1. Quest rogue will stay the same and will just be worse overall: People may still like the playstyle of token spamming and will continue running the same lists as now. I've still seen matchups where people have played a minion 5 times so it could still work. Of course it wouldn't be quite as good but it may still see play like this.
2. Quest rogue will adapt to a slower playstyle: There may be some new variations on the quest. Perhaps some value-based one that focuses on bouncing Swash and/or creating Hucksters. Maybe some variations will include Shadowcaster or Gang Up in Wild. Value machines like Moroes could come back as well. We could also see less bouncing for the sake of bouncing and more bouncing on powerful battlecries. Perhaps even a C'Thun variant might come into play.
3. Quest rogue will disappear from the meta: People overdramatize nerfs all the time. The quest will obviously still be playable in its state (people still played Patron Warrior after Warsong nerf) but people bandwagon drop decks all the time when they are nerfed.
IMO any of these results are satisfactory in my opinion. I would prefer number 2 but even seeing 1 or 3 happen is a good change for the game. The toxicity of that deck is just too much and makes the game feel pointless to play for people who play slower decks. The same thing happened with undertaker hunter and shaman and the nerfs they received helped to fix those issues.
What? Why? Quest Rogue was simply decent. Now it will be worthless.
I don't get it. Just trying to make aggro decks less attractive?
Oh well, I played the crap out of Quest Rogue last season. I was all ready done with it.
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Its the right change. It won't make Quest rogue go away, but it does make it more balanced.
I crafted it the first day of Un'goro and played it for about a week. Too boring, havent touched it in months
Oh, this nerfs Quest Rogue into oblivion. It's gone now.
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Though it seems like a small change and many think that it will take only one turn more to complete the quest - it won't. A lot more things will have to click into place to play a minion five times. I must say that i'm happy about it since it opens possibilities for some slower quest rogue variants. Playing the existing variants with new rules will slow down quest competition by two to three turns which gives slower decks enough time to prepare or set up lethal. Aggro will be destroying it even more ofc.
If you don't believe me play a few games but don't cast the quest until you have done 5 copies. See how you do.
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Definitely keeps it more aligned with the other quests, even if it dooms it to be non-competetive. It's still the fastest quest to complete, but just disables those dream turn 2/3 rewards. It's a good change.
The difference between 4 and 5 minions of the same name could be huge, as Dirty Rat is more of a threat now, which may have been the point. Going forward Crystal Rogue decks may need to work in a second win condition somehow in case that happens, but there already wasn't much room to fit much of anything optional in the deck. I'll have to return to my Finja Crystal Rogue deck to see if that still works.
Flame Elemental stuff might become even more of a requirement but we might see people try bounce targets that you can discover more of. In a recent wild casual game I lost my last Swashburglar at 3/4's completion but was able to make the switch over to Undercity Huckster because I had two in the deck and had gotten a copy of Journey Below (for a third Huckster) from the first Swashburglar.
I'd honestly rather see a nerf to Jade Idol. While the Quest Rogue nerf opens up the meta to control decks, Jade druid is just sooooo strong against every other control deck. Quest Rogue was sometimes beatable as control, but Jade Druid has the ultimate end game.
I see what blizz is trying to do, but it seems like a nerf in the wrong direction. It only will make things a bit better for control, and way better for aggro which was already strong against quest rogue. I use a quest rogue deck with Wisp, so I think maybe this will hurt a little less, but it may be the case that elemental synergy with Fire Fly and Igneous Elemental will become necessary to consistently reach 5 copies played.
I, personally, seriously doubt this deck had as a big of a strangling effect on the meta as its detractors presume.
1) The deck never had a very impressive win rate.
2) It showed a large performance gap between high and low ranks - from this we can conclude it actually had a significant skill ceiling. Most posters on here would agree having decks that reward skill is good.
3) It is a "meta-call" deck - it hard counters certain decks and is weak to others, which means, again, that choosing to pilot it (or to pilot a counter deck if it becomes too prevalent) rewards skill (in a meta reading sense).
B) The deck closes games "too quickly". What is "too quickly"? Old Face Hunter, old Aggro Shaman, current Pirate Warrior or Token Druid, there are many decks who regularly end games even more quickly than Quest Rogue, They punish greedy lists and plays.
C) The deck allows "no counterplay". Well, this is Hearthstone. There is next to no counterplay at all in the game. Still, there are ways ti disrupt Quest Rogue, so I feel this comes from ignorance.
D) The deck "pushes control out of the meta". Really, now? I get that it's a polarizing deck, but a deck with 5-10 % presence alone cannot push entire archetypes out of the meta. And still, even if Quest Rogue should disappear, Jade Druid is there to take its place as the "anti-control" meta call.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, from a purely competitive, analytical viewpoint, Quest Rogue certainly didn't deserve a nerf. The effect it has (if it has any) on the meta can be replicated by other decks, it actually requires some measure of skill, it doesn't win that often or that fast, and is actually easy to counter.
But, well, people hate it. So there goes the ban-hammer. I get it, it's an intelligent business decision - heck, MtG also banned entire archetypes because they were so hated that they could see drops in tournament attendance. It's just disappointing, because it shows how little actual game balance actually matters for the playerbase - and by extension, for Blizzard.
Good. This change was needed.
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Nah, Quest Rogue was at best 50% in the current meta. A 5th bounce will be (most likely) crippling. @Jazzfan put it best, try playing Quest Rogue right now and just don't play the quest until you get a 5th bounce. Quest is as good as 1600 dust.
Can't wait for the tears from the quest rogue scum
Fuck cubelock
I'm actually a bit surprised by this change. Sure, a lot of people complained about Quest Rogue... but then, a lot of people complain about many things, and Blizz doesn't change (most of) those. On the other hand, someone even argued that Quest Rogue was bad (see http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-game-modes/standard-format/195870-proof-that-quest-rogue-is-bottom-tier).
So, the theory that the nerf is not due to the deck's OP-ness but to other reasons may have some substance, IMHO.
Anyway, I'm OK with the change... even if it wasn't the deck I hated the most to face, and there might be more broken things to fix.
I can't see how a T3 or even T4 could be a threat for meta balance.
I avow that QR is kinda bad design, but is it that worse than stuff like QW?
Also, last tournaments showed a great increase in Jade Druid, while none of that happened for QR. Clearly the real threat is Jade.
So, well i can see some reasons behind this nerf, but i am quite surprised, and by the same reasons i'd have expected other nerfs as well.
With that change, the aggressive take on quest rogue is probably dead. One minion more is a huge deal. Maybe a midrange deck will arise, that uses more early game defense and Shadowcaster to bounce and replay value minions like Vilespine Slayer... But I doubt it. Not a bad thing, though.
this nerf dont change the things vs control. now agro deck win more fast and control deck must wait a little bit more to lose. but always you can concede :D