Why have classes if class cards are hardly worth playing?
Just because you find it better to play without class cards, doesn't mean everyone does. Just because you can climb the ladder with forced limitations, doesn't mean everyone can. You're not proving anything here except that you are able to do something kind of unique. Kudos.
You haven't proven KFT cards are problematic, or that classes are redundant though.
This doesn't proof anything. It's the same as "my grandpa smoked a pack of cig's a day and he lived to be 97. See? smoking isn't bad for your health." It hardly proves anything. And than for the argument, if neutral-only decks can go to r7 why use class cards? well post again when you pulled the same trick with mage, or priest. Warlock works incredibly well in this style of deck because of the draw from the hero power and because warlock class cards generally aren't the strongest. Most other classes do actually have very strong class cards.
That's exactly right, all warlock cards have their power limited because the hero power is so strong. we can see this in past zoo metas where warlock had the 2/4 demon that sprouted 1/1's and the 4 cost demon generator and removal spell as well as the 2 cost 3 damage spell. when those spells and minion were in the standard collection, zoo was in every single meta. Now we occaisionally get a rest from zoo because they've been more careful with the warlock cards. OP does have one point though, neutrals have gotten to a power level where there may always be a viable zoolock deck until the next rotation (or maybe even the one after that. )
I'll give it to the OP for at least providing some fun and congenial discussion.
I personally don't think KFT neutrals are problem, but I can understand the sentiment. If neutrals are so powerful that they eclipse class cards, whats the point of class cards? (Again, I don't think this is the case here). But the flip-side is also true. The hard part from a design point is balancing both power level and unique effects and interactions between the class and neutral cards such that it promotes a healthy and diverse meta (different viable classes, deck archetypes, builds within deck archetypes, etc). I actually think people commonly underestimate how hard this is to actually do in any game, but CCG / TCG type games specifically, due to the coarseness of differences within the design space (e.g. changing one integer on the card to the next closest integer can be a huge change; see fiery war axe, call of the wild, ancient of lore, etc.).
But as to this "proof"?! No. It doesn't prove anything, as others have stated. Outside of the whole hasty generalization problem present, there is a different issue entirely. While you said the climb was "easy" (which isn't specific), you did eventually provide context for this climb (rank 20-7). But one can "easily" climb up to rank 5 with winrates at or even under 50%. To a large degree, ladder position is function of how much you've played, not how good the deck or your are. And this still holds true past rank 5, but to a lesser extent.
Oh no! KFT ruins the game, because you can make a deck without any class cards and play it on ladder for weeks to acheive high rank. This is meta changing! Literal meta breaker! Astonishing! If only we could do that in the past.
I recon the next expansion will add so many weapons you could create a deck with just weapons. We can not let that happen. Everyone, let's quit this game for kids before it's too late!
The game would be ruined if you HAD TO do what you did.
Since it is plenty possible to do otherwise, and it is actually significant better, that is, using class cards and removals, it means the game is not ruined and class identity intact.
Yes, Scalebane and Bonemare are really strong, and could possibly use a nerf, the second in particular, but call for a ruined game...
PS: as for class identity, let's talk about Druid and Shaman, the Nature-based classes, whose core decks consist in actually spamming JEWEL STATUES?!?
Blizzard will never win this argument. Blizzard prints strong neutrals like Sludge Belcher, Shredder and Haunted Creeper, also the midrange curve of Sylvanas, Dr. Boom and Ragnaros, the 5 drop utility cards like Azure Drake and Antique Healbot and everyone complains that all decks looks the same. So they create the Wild mode, rotate cards like Azure Drake to the Wild and start printing more class card legendaries and less good neutrals, everyone rants that the price goes up. So they print some very powerful neutrals again and everyone rants!
Unfortunately it is very difficult to find the correct balance. I started a new account last week to see how the game is now for the newer player. Got Valeera as DK (dusted), Yshaarj at first WoTG pack, Lich King at 3rd KFT pack, Kalimos at 4th Ungoro pack and some trash classic legendary. Crafted the midrange standard skeleton (Firefly, Gollaka, Tar Creeper, Cobalt Scalebane and Bonemare) and already at rank 10 at both standard and wild. In wild, crafted the Shaman common deck posted this week by Hotform, and it is a breeze, I think the deck is even legend capable.
So yes, sometimes the powerful neutral cards annoys us, but it is a fair trade to allow newer players to compete against decks with all legendaries.
Blizzard will never win this argument. Blizzard prints strong neutrals like Sludge Belcher, Shredder and Haunted Creeper, also the midrange curve of Sylvanas, Dr. Boom and Ragnaros, the 5 drop utility cards like Azure Drake and Antique Healbot and everyone complains that all decks looks the same. So they create the Wild mode, rotate cards like Azure Drake to the Wild and start printing more class card legendaries and less good neutrals, everyone rants that the price goes up. So they print some very powerful neutrals again and everyone rants!
Great idea! I'm gonna switch to wild and add in all those cards.
Rank 20-7. Hardest matchup is against tempo Rogue when they draw Keleseth early and I do not.
The point of the post is that KFT neutrals are so insane that it has destroyed the "class" mentality of HS. When HS started, class cards were always more powerful, which encouraged different builds and variety across classes. I can't even imagine having been successful with an all-neutral deck a year ago. Now, real class decks are limited to a couple single narrow combos (razakus priest, jade druid) and everyone else is running the same tempo/zoo deck with a few class cards sprinkled in.
If you consider rank 7 as "climbing the ladder" your opinion on the power level of any card is irrelevant.
Guys the reason he's running ghoul is because he just to a regular zoo deck and replaced all the warlock cards so it originally had drain soul and he just neglected to also replace the ghouls to compensate
"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames, their denizens fading without as much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart devoid of emotion... of empathy. I. Have. Felt. Nothing. A million-million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?"
I'll give it to the OP for at least providing some fun and congenial discussion.
I personally don't think KFT neutrals are problem, but I can understand the sentiment. If neutrals are so powerful that they eclipse class cards, whats the point of class cards? (Again, I don't think this is the case here). But the flip-side is also true. The hard part from a design point is balancing both power level and unique effects and interactions between the class and neutral cards such that it promotes a healthy and diverse meta (different viable classes, deck archetypes, builds within deck archetypes, etc). I actually think people commonly underestimate how hard this is to actually do in any game, but CCG / TCG type games specifically, due to the coarseness of differences within the design space (e.g. changing one integer on the card to the next closest integer can be a huge change; see fiery war axe, call of the wild, ancient of lore, etc.).
But as to this "proof"?! No. It doesn't prove anything, as others have stated. Outside of the whole hasty generalization problem present, there is a different issue entirely. While you said the climb was "easy" (which isn't specific), you did eventually provide context for this climb (rank 20-7). But one can "easily" climb up to rank 5 with winrates at or even under 50%. To a large degree, ladder position is function of how much you've played, not how good the deck or your are. And this still holds true past rank 5, but to a lesser extent.
Oh no! KFT ruins the game, because you can make a deck without any class cards and play it on ladder for weeks to acheive high rank. This is meta changing! Literal meta breaker! Astonishing! If only we could do that in the past.
I recon the next expansion will add so many weapons you could create a deck with just weapons. We can not let that happen. Everyone, let's quit this game for kids before it's too late!
Noticed that you for some absurd reason have 2 Happy Ghouls in there... Why the shite are they in there? :D
The game would be ruined if you HAD TO do what you did.
Since it is plenty possible to do otherwise, and it is actually significant better, that is, using class cards and removals, it means the game is not ruined and class identity intact.
Yes, Scalebane and Bonemare are really strong, and could possibly use a nerf, the second in particular, but call for a ruined game...
PS: as for class identity, let's talk about Druid and Shaman, the Nature-based classes, whose core decks consist in actually spamming JEWEL STATUES?!?
Blizzard will never win this argument. Blizzard prints strong neutrals like Sludge Belcher, Shredder and Haunted Creeper, also the midrange curve of Sylvanas, Dr. Boom and Ragnaros, the 5 drop utility cards like Azure Drake and Antique Healbot and everyone complains that all decks looks the same. So they create the Wild mode, rotate cards like Azure Drake to the Wild and start printing more class card legendaries and less good neutrals, everyone rants that the price goes up. So they print some very powerful neutrals again and everyone rants!
Unfortunately it is very difficult to find the correct balance. I started a new account last week to see how the game is now for the newer player. Got Valeera as DK (dusted), Yshaarj at first WoTG pack, Lich King at 3rd KFT pack, Kalimos at 4th Ungoro pack and some trash classic legendary. Crafted the midrange standard skeleton (Firefly, Gollaka, Tar Creeper, Cobalt Scalebane and Bonemare) and already at rank 10 at both standard and wild. In wild, crafted the Shaman common deck posted this week by Hotform, and it is a breeze, I think the deck is even legend capable.
So yes, sometimes the powerful neutral cards annoys us, but it is a fair trade to allow newer players to compete against decks with all legendaries.
Pretty sure most of the truly good players could climb to rank 7 with an all-neutral deck of nearly any class.
Warlock is actually the easiest to do this with because its hero power is objectively the strongest.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
didnt you notice all those cards with "steal" and "discover" text on it? ^_^
thats how T5 expands on creative card design philosophy lol
The game would be alot better without hunters btw. But i like it more now then before.
Best quotes:
"Casual is perfectly fine"
"warlock is not overpowered"
"Playing odd paladin just to test it"
To make this one OP, add Lorewalker Cho.
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Guys the reason he's running ghoul is because he just to a regular zoo deck and replaced all the warlock cards so it originally had drain soul and he just neglected to also replace the ghouls to compensate
well I mean face hunter and undertaker hunter were dominated by neutral cards
I could hit seven with the only-cards-with-females-in-the-card-art deck I built during a contest with a friend, does that mean Blizzard is sexist?
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Proof that warlock hero power is overpowered lol, no so much proof that KFT is ruing heartstone. Put this same deck in priest then we can talk.