@asteroidm; agreed, that definitely clouds the issue. Similar to how people toss around "cancer" to describe something, it's basically such a catch-all term it doesn't really mean anything anymore. People also tend to gloss over that doing broken things is what good decks do, full stop.
While I don't disagree the problem is when every deck wants to shoehorn a card in, I think it's really only a problem when it's Neutral. Like I don't mind the Pirate package currently, just that it's sort of alarming to see how effective it is getting stapled on to so many different decks. Prep/FWA/Innervate might be ubiquitous (amusingly Innervate even made it to aggro decks like the old Fel Reaver build), but they're class-based and that settles fine with me.
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Priest was bad for a long time . It deserves a powerful card .
If you get so salty at the game for facing dragon priest that you need to express your rage on a forum just stop playing for a while and come back after next expansion when Dragons will be gone .
IMO Azure Drake is just as good or better than this card and no one cries about nerfing him .
@robert_fanr; ehhhh... Operative is definitely better than Azure Drake (though Azure Drake is great). Other than that I don't disagree that these threads are pretty dumb.
@robert_fanr; ehhhh... Operative is definitely better than Azure Drake (though Azure Drake is great). Other than that I don't disagree that these threads are pretty dumb.
First of all : azure drake is neutral and also a classic card, meaning it sees play in a ton more decks than DO and was in every meta so far.
Second of all: cards that you put in your own deck are usually much better than cards from your opponent deck for your particular strategy . Also IMPORTANT: DO requires A CONDITION to discover , so you need to build your deck around it to be good . Azure fits into almost anything .
Third of all: spell damage is an important bonus (for example in shaman, mage) .
DO's only (significant) advantage is a pre applied Divine Strength . While good, I don't think this makes him better than azure, for reasons stated above .
@robert_fanr; ehhhh... Operative is definitely better than Azure Drake (though Azure Drake is great). Other than that I don't disagree that these threads are pretty dumb.
First of all : azure drake is neutral and also a classic card, meaning it sees play in a ton more decks than DO and was in every meta so far.
Second of all: cards that you put in your own deck are usually much better than cards from your opponent deck for your particular strategy . Also IMPORTANT: DO requires A CONDITION to discover , so you need to build your deck around it to be good . Azure fits into almost anything .
Third of all: spell damage is an important bonus (for example in shaman, mage) .
DO's only (significant) advantage is a pre applied Divine Strength . While good, I don't think this makes him better than azure, for reasons stated above .
I mean, I've played a lot of Rogue/Shaman so I'm completely aware Azure is nuts; however, it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison because neither of those classes really have access to Operative. In regards to Dragon Priest, which generally runs both, we can pretty much just compare them side-by-side in the current builds and Operative is head and shoulders more useful. It's a bit like saying per-nerf BGH was better than Shadow Word: Death.
- Card draw vs Discover is a wash, draw will be stronger against Aggro and Discover will be better against Control/Midrange; the lack of a condition is great on Azure, but generally having flexibility outside of your deck is just strong in itself against a Control build that wants you to just play stuff they can remove. Having cards outside your deck is why this coupled with Netherspite make the longer matchups so much easier to avoid running out of steam.
- The extra 1/2 is a massive deal for tempo; with Azure you're at risk of some 3-drops and most 4-drops trading into your 5-drop, with Operative you're at risk of some 5-drops and 6+ drops being the only real options most people have to 1-for-1. 6 health is just a big deal, especially in a class that can get extra value out of it with their hero power.
- Spell Damage is great for classes that can utilize it, but for the most part it's not amazing in Priest; Kolento's build with 2x Smite and 1x Holy Nova is probably one of the ones to leverage it the most, but Excavated Evil is pretty bad with Drake and in Dragon lists and you can't fit Dragonfire in the same turn which leaves you with Nova only being able to really capitalize and still being an extremely slow play. So if you're evaluating the two in regards to Priest, this isn't really why you're running the card as much as for the cycle.
Long story short, if you're running Dragon Priest there's reason to argue you could cut Azure currently; there's no world you'd even remotely consider cutting Operative. Personally I think both are too good to cut right now in a list that runs very, very little cycle and needs the Dragon tag... but Operative is simply the better card of the two.
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@robert_fanr; ehhhh... Operative is definitely better than Azure Drake (though Azure Drake is great). Other than that I don't disagree that these threads are pretty dumb.
First of all : azure drake is neutral and also a classic card, meaning it sees play in a ton more decks than DO and was in every meta so far.
Second of all: cards that you put in your own deck are usually much better than cards from your opponent deck for your particular strategy . Also IMPORTANT: DO requires A CONDITION to discover , so you need to build your deck around it to be good . Azure fits into almost anything .
Third of all: spell damage is an important bonus (for example in shaman, mage) .
DO's only (significant) advantage is a pre applied Divine Strength . While good, I don't think this makes him better than azure, for reasons stated above .
I believe Tze is judging the card only comparing effects and bodies. The restriction of what decks will run it, while a real thing isn't really part of the discussion here as it is assumed the space in which you would play DO is a dragon priest sort of set up, where DO is significantly stronger.
@Tze . I completely agree with you that DO is slightly stronger than azure in Dragon Priest deck .
But I thought the discussion was about nerfing DO and my point was that the game has other cards on the same or higher power level that not many people complain about so complaining about this card being broken is unreasonable .
@Tze . I completely agree with you that DO is slightly stronger than azure in Dragon Priest deck .
But I thought the discussion was about nerfing DO and my point was that the game has other cards on the same or higher power level that not many people complain about so complaining about this card being broken is unreasonable .
Yeah, I considered that when I responded (Asteroidm was right and I kind of glossed over the context I was making the comparison); I do absolutely agree Azure as a single card is insanely strong just because it fits a ton of slots and it really has been everywhere since the beginning of HS. Overall I think we're in agreement though, expecting every single strong card in the game to have some kind of negative repercussions is just unreasonable if the deck those cards fit in isn't particularly oppressive.
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A card which increases your winrate does not mean the card is OP/broken, just that it's strong and/or has strong synergy.
A card that increases your winrate significantly more than any other card does mean that card is broken.
No it doesn't. Because I said so. You are also wrong because I said so. See I can do it too. Actually this is simply false because you can remove cards from a LOT of decks and this will happen. Very often certain cards serves as a backbone and irreplaceable for decks. This does not mean the card is broken. The only thing it means is that that card is extremely important for that deck. Anyhow, per the front page blue. Dragons will not be seeing anymore support anytime soon. You may look forward to this card not seeing near as much play at rotation, as I predicted.
I'd say both people are right here; Drakonid Operative is "broken" in the sense that if you remove it, the deck definitely would suffer. But so would Miracle Rogue without Preparation, so would Warrior without Fiery War Axe, so would Druid without Innervate... essentially a card being somewhat broken is neither abnormal or particularly unhealthy, especially if said card is something you have to extensively build around to leverage the power of the card and will soon be entering rotation. Think Mysterious Challenger; is he actually still a problem in Standard?
And while Operative may have brought this deck into relevance, Dragon Priest wasn't exactly a horrible deck to ladder with before. You didn't just slot in 2x Operative into existing lists and then go from completely unplayable to Legend-worthy, people like Bunnyhoppor were already hitting Top 10 Legend with pre-existing ONiK lists.
Drakonid is not OP, just because you see cards in your opponents deck doesn't mean its OP, Thoughtsteal lets you see and use cards from your opponents deck but no one complains about that, Mind Vision lets you see a card that's in your opponents hand and you can use that card and no one complains about it. I've played dragon priest since the beginning and Drakonid is a good card but it isn't the reason i win games and i do get bad choices from it. It pretty much has the combined effect of Thoughtsteal and Mind Vision, if i get good cards from those, great. But if i get bad choices, not so great. Drakonid does let you chose a card of your choice but still has the same effect of Thoughtsteal and Mind Vision because you can get bad or good cards from it and lets you see whats in your opponents deck
Drakonid Operative isn't broken. Priest used to be unplayable for a long time, and now they included a card to make it better. Well, why don't I see people complain about 4 Mana 7/7, or Patches the Pirate? Even with this, Priest is unable to compete well against Jade Rogue, Pirate Warrior, Pirate Rogue, Jade Shaman and Jade Druid. The Aggro decks kill you before turn 5.
5 mana is worth 11 stats if you take the vanilla 5 mana.
Then you have Mind vision and Thoughsteal combined in one single card without downside (usually higher cost) that would be worth 1,5 mana alone: discover a card in your oponents deck. On top of that, it has a dragon tag.
If you consider a tag worth anything, it's plus 0,5 mana.
By the same standards that Dr. Seven was OP, so is Drakonid.
The bonus thing is that usually an oponent's class card is a key card. If it gives any credibility, I added a screenshot to my current rank this season, I know what i'm talking about.
5 mana is worth 11 stats if you take the vanilla 5 mana.
Then you have Mind vision and Thoughsteal combined in one single card without downside (usually higher cost) that would be worth 1,5 mana alone: discover a card in your oponents deck. On top of that, it has a dragon tag.
If you consider a tag worth anything, it's plus 0,5 mana.
By the same standards that Dr. Seven was OP, so is Drakonid.
The bonus thing is that usually an oponent's class card is a key card. If it gives any credibility, I added a screenshot to my current rank this season, I know what i'm talking about.
I'm guessing you lost so many matches to priests with T1 Renolock on your climb. Being Leg1 means you should know how slow this card is and almost never dictates outcomes of games and that you have an insane amount of time to grinds 3 days into the month.
Why, because other classes cards currently played and neutral cards as well synergize like shit with priest decks. Giving a very a low percentage of discovery a game deciding card.
Discovering buccaneer with dragon priest or any jade card... Mostly it's throwing down a big body for tempo. Which, priest needed. Also, mana costs are premium for class cards, but you knew that already. How can anyone think the mechanic is equal to thought steal plus mindvision, that would be broken and worth 4mana not the 1.5 you randomly equate it to.
5 mana is worth 11 stats if you take the vanilla 5 mana.
Then you have Mind vision and Thoughsteal combined in one single card without downside (usually higher cost) that would be worth 1,5 mana alone: discover a card in your oponents deck. On top of that, it has a dragon tag.
If you consider a tag worth anything, it's plus 0,5 mana.
By the same standards that Dr. Seven was OP, so is Drakonid.
The bonus thing is that usually an oponent's class card is a key card. If it gives any credibility, I added a screenshot to my current rank this season, I know what i'm talking about.
Mind Vision ? what has this Card to do with Drakonid Operative ? Mind Vision gives you a random Card from the opponents Hand. And the effect of Thoughtsteal is better than to discover 1 card. You get 2 random cards out of three instead of choosing only 1. I'd prefer that (except my Hand is full of course).
And yes, DO is a very strong Card. It is, however, not oppressive and doesn't provide a tempo swing like Call of the Wild or old Yogg-Saron, Hope's End . And as a mid game Card it does not snowball as easy as early game threats. DO is a high value card and helps priest with the Problem of inconsistent card draw. And the card discovered has to be played normally. But it is not a card that wins games outright when it is played. It gives you a Body that wouldn't be played without the effect (see Pit Fighter ) and it gives you card advantage which is admittedly highly valuable in certain matches. But since priest is not dominating the ladder, I do not see any reason to nerf something.
Btw.: Playing the game very good does not mean you understand Cards better than other People. It means you can pilot a deck and have a certain (high) skill in the game. So no, just because you are the first to reach legend or play good enough to get No.1 doesn't prove that you know what you are talking about (if anything, bringing Mind Vision into the equation indicates the opposite). And obviously you didn't get your no. 1 with Dragon or Reno priest, but with warlock and without DO.
Edit (checking your page 41 post): And I agree that Drakonid is more worth than 5 mana. I'd probably put it on 6-6.5 for body, conditional draw and tag, but it's not a swing card and for a poor class. So that's okay.
IF we would have a slow meta, with priest crushing everyone with Drakonid Operative and Entomb a nerf would be justifiable but give the current state it is not op. Before we talk nerfing 5 drops, we should review almost all 1 drops and most charge minions as well.
Additionally, many of the strong priest dragons will rotate out of standard together with blackrock what will make dragon priest obsolete anyways.
@asteroidm; agreed, that definitely clouds the issue. Similar to how people toss around "cancer" to describe something, it's basically such a catch-all term it doesn't really mean anything anymore. People also tend to gloss over that doing broken things is what good decks do, full stop.
While I don't disagree the problem is when every deck wants to shoehorn a card in, I think it's really only a problem when it's Neutral. Like I don't mind the Pirate package currently, just that it's sort of alarming to see how effective it is getting stapled on to so many different decks. Prep/FWA/Innervate might be ubiquitous (amusingly Innervate even made it to aggro decks like the old Fel Reaver build), but they're class-based and that settles fine with me.
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Guys stop with this stupid threads OK !
Priest was bad for a long time . It deserves a powerful card .
If you get so salty at the game for facing dragon priest that you need to express your rage on a forum just stop playing for a while and come back after next expansion when Dragons will be gone .
IMO Azure Drake is just as good or better than this card and no one cries about nerfing him .
@robert_fanr; ehhhh... Operative is definitely better than Azure Drake (though Azure Drake is great). Other than that I don't disagree that these threads are pretty dumb.
Strong cards doing strong things, hurr durr please nerf.
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@Tze . I completely agree with you that DO is slightly stronger than azure in Dragon Priest deck .
But I thought the discussion was about nerfing DO and my point was that the game has other cards on the same or higher power level that not many people complain about so complaining about this card being broken is unreasonable .
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Drakonid is not OP, just because you see cards in your opponents deck doesn't mean its OP, Thoughtsteal lets you see and use cards from your opponents deck but no one complains about that, Mind Vision lets you see a card that's in your opponents hand and you can use that card and no one complains about it. I've played dragon priest since the beginning and Drakonid is a good card but it isn't the reason i win games and i do get bad choices from it. It pretty much has the combined effect of Thoughtsteal and Mind Vision, if i get good cards from those, great. But if i get bad choices, not so great. Drakonid does let you chose a card of your choice but still has the same effect of Thoughtsteal and Mind Vision because you can get bad or good cards from it and lets you see whats in your opponents deck
Drakonid is extremelly OP.
But considering it's a priest card and their overall toolkit, it doesn't need nerfing. But saying it isn't OP only makes you a fool.
Break down the card and you'll see everything is over the cost for 5 mana.
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After many games I think Patches is much more OP than Drakonid, if any card in this set need nerf is Patches, before anything else.
Drakonid Operative isn't broken. Priest used to be unplayable for a long time, and now they included a card to make it better. Well, why don't I see people complain about 4 Mana 7/7, or Patches the Pirate? Even with this, Priest is unable to compete well against Jade Rogue, Pirate Warrior, Pirate Rogue, Jade Shaman and Jade Druid. The Aggro decks kill you before turn 5.
What data do you need?
5 mana is worth 11 stats if you take the vanilla 5 mana.
Then you have Mind vision and Thoughsteal combined in one single card without downside (usually higher cost) that would be worth 1,5 mana alone: discover a card in your oponents deck. On top of that, it has a dragon tag.
If you consider a tag worth anything, it's plus 0,5 mana.
By the same standards that Dr. Seven was OP, so is Drakonid.
The bonus thing is that usually an oponent's class card is a key card. If it gives any credibility, I added a screenshot to my current rank this season, I know what i'm talking about.
@Skyi101
Don't make a fool of yourself. Check my original post on page 41. But thanks for making assumptions and still proving my point.
IF we would have a slow meta, with priest crushing everyone with Drakonid Operative and Entomb a nerf would be justifiable but give the current state it is not op. Before we talk nerfing 5 drops, we should review almost all 1 drops and most charge minions as well.
Additionally, many of the strong priest dragons will rotate out of standard together with blackrock what will make dragon priest obsolete anyways.
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