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    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from FortyDust >>

    It was general. If I'm talking to someone specifically, I'll use Reply or Quote. ;-)

     Though I think the new control priest deck, or should I say resurgence of the control priest deck is rough for midrange since it likes to buff it's controlly creatures to midrange or bigger stats.  I haven't tried a midrange deck against it specifically but I have lost to it numerous times with Deathrattle rogue.

     

    Posted in: Standard Format
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    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from FortyDust >>

    This is not an "aggro meta." There are plenty of people playing midrange and control.

    If you think a slow deck cannot stand up against aggro, you are misinformed. Control decks are slow by definition, and their entire reason for being is to prey on aggro decks.

    It is entirely possible to use Dragons in a control deck. It doesn't have the same feel as the midrange Dragon deck you envisioned, but it works.

    So no, aggro decks do not push the entire Dragon tribe out of the meta. Aggro decks only push "midrange-only" players out of the meta.

    If you people would quit crying long enough to switch to control for a while, you'd both A) win more games, and B) make aggro less attractive to those who are playing aggro.

    If you can't bear to play control, you must accept that aggro will usually beat you. Aggro is supposed to beat midrange most of the time, no matter how strong the midrange build is. When that stops being true, it means the meta is broken and in need of a balance patch.

     Not sure if you are replaying to me or in general.  If you are replaying to me then just let me say I agree.   However I think the real issue with dragon control is that most of the new ones aren't "control" type dragons.  They are very much a Midrange bodies, midrange costed and a midrange effects.  Missing the Primordial Dragon myself.  Good news though is that if we, as you said, start playing more control to counter act aggro then Midrange will become more popular as a counter.  

    Actually want to start playing quest priest cause it works so well against aggro.

     

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 1

    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from TardisGreen >>
    Quote from asteroidm >>
    Quote from TardisGreen >>
    Quote from emkarab >>

    it's not whining. It's just stating a fact - aggro and Deathrattle Rogue create meta unplayable for dragons. One can be sad or happy about it.

    Try again.

    Here are the some of the reasons why we don't see that many dragon decks.

    • deck expense
    • skill requirement
    • Galakrond, the Nightmare/Tempest/Wretched/Unbreakable

    But the most important reason of all:

    • the Dragons and their synergy cards are just not that good.

    Lets start with one of the first cards revealed, Breath of Dreams.  67.9% of the "distinguished" Hearthpwn community rated the cards as "meta-defining".  LULZ.  Over 2/3 of the community were dead wrong.  The card is Wild Growth together with draw a card, but conditionally.  And the condition is huge.  Druid has very limited access to Dragons and a spotty history with that tribe.  But aside from that, the biggest payoff from WG on curve was a strong play on turn four.  But there is no more Oaken Summons or Branching Paths.  Druid just doesn't have a particularly strong play on four even if they pull off BoD on turn two.

    Many of the other cards follow a similar trend.  Frizz Kindleroost (meta defining according to 69.6% of those participating in the poll, more LULZ), is underperforming and players are considering dropping the card from their decks.  Ysera 2 is too slow (so sad about this).  Nozdormu 2 is even less playable than Nozdormu 1.  Maygos 2 is OK, but not broken enough to make a real impact.  Likewise for many of the other Dragon and dragon-synergy cards.

    Meanwhile, Devoted Maniac, (labeled as Bad by 47.6%, and Dust by 18.9%) is the most played card in Standard.  Its an auto include in every Galakrond deck, and every Galakrond deck save Priest is broken.

    In Constructed play, "good" cards just don't cut it.  The cards (and the decks) have to do extremely broken things to be competitive. Dragons are good, but not good enough.

    Your "facts" are in error, just like the ridiculously wrong evaluations of many of  the cards from this x-pac.

     ...huh?  I mean some of your points are completely salient but in no way refute the person you quoted.  Some I disagree with though.  In truth you are both right in some ways. 

    Firstly, what do you mean druid has limited access to dragons?  This is simply not true and the condition is hardly huge.  It's stupid easy to meat.  Also twighlight drake is a power turn 4 play after playing a ramp card that ALSO drew you a card.  Druid's issue is, it's just too damn slow, even with the ramp.  Taking turn two to ramp against a pirate warrior is just very difficult proposition when they can essentially put up to 4 minions on their turn two while literally generating more value in their hand.  Anyhow that is just an example.  My point is that the card is good, druid dragons are good, BUT they aren't fast enough in this meta.  I think the quoted person to be right in this case.

    I think your assessment of Frizz, Nozdormu and Ysera are spot on.  Too slow.  Which is why I am confused about why you are arguing with the quoted person.  If something is two slow, what sort of decks punish the shit out of that?  Tempo and Aggro, the two decks types he listed. (as DR rogue is a tempo deck). 

    As far as devoted maniac goes, the card was rated bad when people were still fuzzy on how Invoke would work.  It's why I rated it badly.  Also it's in every Galakrond deck because no one gets more than 8 invoke cards.  It essentially HAS to be in there.  If I had the option I would play different invoke cards I would. That being said now that I understand how the card works I'd rate it as playable.  Cause it is.

    I guess I just don't know why you are arguing with him.  Good aggro decks make it hard to play  slower type decks.  Aggro beats midrange.  Dragon Druid is midrange.  When the better decks are aggro and Tempo then yeah, midrange is gonna suffer badly.  You can take what would otherwise be strong cards and they become a LOT worse.

     You missed the point.

    Quote from Jonesy978 >>

    Dragon decks are missing just a few cards to make them truly viable. The problem right now is that every Galakron deck (except Priest) has a very powerful late game. The only way to counter that is with a very strong early game... hence, the rise of aggro decks.

    Dragon decks are good mid-range decks but lack both a very strong start and a powerful late game. I really wanted Dragon Paladin to work but it simply doesn't have enough good early game Dragons (and no 1-drops) and no late game. Indeed, the Dragon legendary cards for Paladin are complete trash.

    So how can that deck compete with Galakrond on turn 7 or 8? It can't.

    I have been trying Highlander Dragon decks recently and they're more competitive, because Dragonqueen Alexstrasa alone is very powerful. But even then, it's at best Tier 2.

     This.

    Dragon decks are, of course, vulnerable to Aggro.  But they aren't very good against the Galakrond decks.

    The most popular decks in the game include Galakrond Warrior, Galakrond Rogue, Galakrond Shaman, and Galakrond Warlock.  Some of these have Highlander and non-Highlander sub-variants.  Collectively, they make up about 36% of the Meta across all ranks.  Most are all Tier 1/2 decks; none are "aggro".

    The Dragon decks are simply inferior.  Not by a lot.  But in between getting beat up by Aggro AND having less than stellar matchups vs the Galakrond decks, they are hard to climb with.  And considering how expensive they are, it's no surprise that aren't particularly popular.

    Correlation =/= causation.  At least not in totality.  I mean I am not sure why you go out of your way to mention Galakrond decks to be the issue but ignore the even MORE populace aggro and Tempo decks.  Pirate Warrior, Facehunter, Token Druid, Deathrattle Rogue.

    Like I said, MY point was I don't know why you were arguing with the guy telling him he was wrong.  So YOU missed what I was saying.  You are BOTH right.  Galakrond, Tempo, AND aggro are THE most populace decks and ALL of them are good against Dragons.  

    I'll reiterate, you were both right but you seem so hellbent on being right at the cost of others you didn't stop to realize that neither of  you are wrong.  

     

    Posted in: Standard Format
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    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from Live4vrRdieTryn >>

    I have 3 highlander dragon decks that do fairly well (mage, pal, druid). Was able to climb to 5 with them. Versus aggro Pal's is easily the best for heal but druid as well. I play them because they are fun not to make high legend. I'm happy with the expansion but look forward to the rotation when all these cards will get a big spike in power with year of the raven cards leaving.

     I am also interested to see if dragons get a push in Jan.

    Posted in: Standard Format
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    posted a message on Has the community worsened?
    Quote from HeadHunterHS >>

    Can not relate. For example I play Wild since the beginning and everyone is always positive, maybe only 1 out of 15 friend adds are some salty pirate warrior/secret mage cunts who are mad that they tryhard and you play awesome decks and win lol, can't not love that 😂😂😂

    Merry Xmas my friend and don't even care about this!

    P.S. You do not have to accept every friend request, if you expect it to be a salt rage 😂

     Oh I don't care about it on a personal level.  Like I said it doesn't phase me personally.  My Worry was for the overall community going downhill.  Also I am very much aware I don't have to accept requests.  I do because like I said usually more than 50% of the time is someone saying GGs and wanting to either compliment my deck or to just talk about how interesting the game we played was.  Also up to this point I generally didn't "expect" salt rage.  It's just been more prevalent lately.  Though it seems like it was just luck of the draw, it has been far less the past few days.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Has the community worsened?
    Quote from ADXE >>
    Quote from OldenGolden >>

    I think these things go through phases, and I think a lot of people are finding the popular decks frustrating and difficult to interact with. Also, I know that as a casual player, those decks are just as popular there as they are on ladder, so it's more difficult to find a place to enjoy yourself if Galakrond Shamans and Rogues or Face Hunters aren't your thing. 

    Throw in some obnoxious emoting and some roping, and people get enraged. To me, it's understandable - generally, I find, the people that complain about toxic communities and whatnot are the same ones who fuel that fire by queueing up a shaman in casual, waiting on turn 1 until the rope's nearly gone, then playing the Vir'naal battlecry quest.

     I think roping does have a lot to do with rage.  The two go hand in hand.  

    OP do you find yourself roping more often than not?

     I rope very very little.  Actually it's one of the reasons I have never really ranked up beyond 5 in the past.  I am too impatient and make lots of mistakes cause I play too fast.  

    I think it may just be a deck thing.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from TardisGreen >>
    Quote from emkarab >>

    it's not whining. It's just stating a fact - aggro and Deathrattle Rogue create meta unplayable for dragons. One can be sad or happy about it.

    Try again.

    Here are the some of the reasons why we don't see that many dragon decks.

    • deck expense
    • skill requirement
    • Galakrond, the Nightmare/Tempest/Wretched/Unbreakable

    But the most important reason of all:

    • the Dragons and their synergy cards are just not that good.

    Lets start with one of the first cards revealed, Breath of Dreams.  67.9% of the "distinguished" Hearthpwn community rated the cards as "meta-defining".  LULZ.  Over 2/3 of the community were dead wrong.  The card is Wild Growth together with draw a card, but conditionally.  And the condition is huge.  Druid has very limited access to Dragons and a spotty history with that tribe.  But aside from that, the biggest payoff from WG on curve was a strong play on turn four.  But there is no more Oaken Summons or Branching Paths.  Druid just doesn't have a particularly strong play on four even if they pull off BoD on turn two.

    Many of the other cards follow a similar trend.  Frizz Kindleroost (meta defining according to 69.6% of those participating in the poll, more LULZ), is underperforming and players are considering dropping the card from their decks.  Ysera 2 is too slow (so sad about this).  Nozdormu 2 is even less playable than Nozdormu 1.  Maygos 2 is OK, but not broken enough to make a real impact.  Likewise for many of the other Dragon and dragon-synergy cards.

    Meanwhile, Devoted Maniac, (labeled as Bad by 47.6%, and Dust by 18.9%) is the most played card in Standard.  Its an auto include in every Galakrond deck, and every Galakrond deck save Priest is broken.

    In Constructed play, "good" cards just don't cut it.  The cards (and the decks) have to do extremely broken things to be competitive. Dragons are good, but not good enough.

    Your "facts" are in error, just like the ridiculously wrong evaluations of many of  the cards from this x-pac.

     ...huh?  I mean some of your points are completely salient but in no way refute the person you quoted.  Some I disagree with though.  In truth you are both right in some ways. 

    Firstly, what do you mean druid has limited access to dragons?  This is simply not true and the condition is hardly huge.  It's stupid easy to meat.  Also twighlight drake is a power turn 4 play after playing a ramp card that ALSO drew you a card.  Druid's issue is, it's just too damn slow, even with the ramp.  Taking turn two to ramp against a pirate warrior is just very difficult proposition when they can essentially put up to 4 minions on their turn two while literally generating more value in their hand.  Anyhow that is just an example.  My point is that the card is good, druid dragons are good, BUT they aren't fast enough in this meta.  I think the quoted person to be right in this case.

    I think your assessment of Frizz, Nozdormu and Ysera are spot on.  Too slow.  Which is why I am confused about why you are arguing with the quoted person.  If something is two slow, what sort of decks punish the shit out of that?  Tempo and Aggro, the two decks types he listed. (as DR rogue is a tempo deck). 

    As far as devoted maniac goes, the card was rated bad when people were still fuzzy on how Invoke would work.  It's why I rated it badly.  Also it's in every Galakrond deck because no one gets more than 8 invoke cards.  It essentially HAS to be in there.  If I had the option I would play different invoke cards I would. That being said now that I understand how the card works I'd rate it as playable.  Cause it is.

    I guess I just don't know why you are arguing with him.  Good aggro decks make it hard to play  slower type decks.  Aggro beats midrange.  Dragon Druid is midrange.  When the better decks are aggro and Tempo then yeah, midrange is gonna suffer badly.  You can take what would otherwise be strong cards and they become a LOT worse.

    Posted in: Standard Format
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    posted a message on Has the community worsened?
    Quote from Ilyanthiel >>

    That's just life. I haven't had a BM friend request in ages just a few nice ones recently after good games (with uncommon  (funny) decks on both parts) so I guess I'm probably queuing for some BM...

     Well it's good to hear that it's likely just variance.  Unlucky.  But over all a good thing.  Didn't want to see things go down the dumps.  I am always really surprised when it happens.  I don't BM, I abhor it actually, and never try to be "cute" with my plays.  So when it happens I assume it's either the deck type that I am using they hate or they are just so fucking entitled they expect me to just lose, on purpose, just cause.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 4

    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from TallAr92 >>

    If youre looking for true fun then switch to another card game. HS is for kids and aggro players.

     Some would argue that video games are for kids.  I also don't give their opinions any real value either.  That being said, I am VERY interested int he Legends of Runeterra game.

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 4

    posted a message on Has the community worsened?

    I have returned to HS proper after spending the last two expansions in only the solo adventure or the new battleground modes.  It simply hasn't been fun.  However I was excited for the xpac.  I pre-purchased and everything.  This may be an unpopular opinion but I am having a blast.  the meta isn't perfect, it's also, at least to my limited recollection, not nearly half as worse as others.  

    At any rate I play a lot of different decks but my personal favorites Tree Druid, Big Dragon Druid, and pretty much any mage deck.  This is relevant only in that maybe someone can tell me if it's the specific deck type that is causing this?  I have been friended and at least 10 times and told "fuck you" or some variation of.  Now I am not salty about this, I played league for years so this is baby land frolics.  Just concerned.  The community was always one of my favorite things about HS.  In previous days I might get 10 fried request all season long and at least 50% were pleasant people who wanted to either trade deck ideas or just to say GG.  

    Has anyone else experienced this or is this just some real life variance?

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from Ace1a >>

    Looks like it will be pirate warrior, face hunter and mech paladin that will be needing nerfs next. Blizz might wait for the adventure to be out first. Galakrond Shaman has been knocked down to tier 2 due to both nerfs and aggro. Maybe Blizz can hold off on nerfing shaman again and see what happens when Shudderwock rotates out this spring. Faceless Corruptor does need to be bumped to 6 mana or become 3/4s

     You have got to stop constantly asking for nerfs man.  Okay technically you don't "have to".  I can't make you do shit.  But 1-2 decks will ALWAYS rise to the top, ALWAYS.  There will never be a perfect meta, it's fucking pipe dream.  MTG has been doing this shit for decades and I have been around for all of it and never once in it's long long history did they have a perfectly balanced meta.  

    And lastly it's super hard to take ANY suggestion you make seriously considering you suggested that Galakrond Shaman was DOA, then turned around and yelled that it needed nerfs right away, only then then to suggest the nerfs WEREN'T ENOUGH just to be dead wrong again!  Faceless corrupter is very good, but it's not broke AF like it used to be and that is fine.

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 2

    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from FierceMonkey >>
    Quote from asteroidm >>
    Quote from FierceMonkey >>
    Quote from NLbouncyknight >>
    Quote from Random_Huffer >>

    Dont know why you complaining. Aggro was nearly unplayable for a very long time now. Glad its back so i dont have to play 30 Minute Matches anymore.

     whut you makin a joke right combo priest ,evolve shamaan, murlock shamaan,murlock palla it was meta always gggro is always crushing metas 

     I dont know if i would consider those "aggro". Maybe more tempo based... Tempo is all about the value. Aggro is go face hard and fast.

     I don' t know how they can call combo priest "aggro" when it's deck type is right in the name.  Evolve shaman also VERY much not aggro.

    For anyone who is confused.  Aggro just plays quick, low cost minions without thought forcing  you to have the answer, and if you don't, you die.  Tempo on the other hand, like a number of the decks mentioned above, looks for cards that can create big tempo shifts, where your turn to turn plays eventually overwhelm the opponent of the course of a game.  aggro decks don't look for tempo swings, they want to grab tempo early and kill you before they can loose it. 

    An example of a good "Tempo" card is Vilespine Slayer.  This card removes tempo from your opponents board and places tempo on your board with a 3/4.  Aggro doesn't care if  you have played a higher "tempo" card than them.  For example aggro plays a 2/1.  The opponent plays a 1/3 with rush in response and trades.  Technically the 1/3 rush is higher tempo, but aggro gives no shits.  They will just play more minions into that 1/3 trying to eek out as much damage as they can and hopefully kill the opponent before they can stabilize through their higher tempo or defensive plays.

     So my version was a TLDR of yours, lol. Glad we were on the same page though.

    Yep, precisely.  I felt I should lay it out somewhat as people obviously don't seem to understand what aggro means.

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 2

    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from FierceMonkey >>
    Quote from NLbouncyknight >>
    Quote from Random_Huffer >>

    Dont know why you complaining. Aggro was nearly unplayable for a very long time now. Glad its back so i dont have to play 30 Minute Matches anymore.

     whut you makin a joke right combo priest ,evolve shamaan, murlock shamaan,murlock palla it was meta always gggro is always crushing metas 

     I dont know if i would consider those "aggro". Maybe more tempo based... Tempo is all about the value. Aggro is go face hard and fast.

     I don' t know how they can call combo priest "aggro" when it's deck type is right in the name.  Evolve shaman also VERY much not aggro.

    For anyone who is confused.  Aggro just plays quick, low cost minions without thought forcing  you to have the answer, and if you don't, you die.  Tempo on the other hand, like a number of the decks mentioned above, looks for cards that can create big tempo shifts, where your turn to turn plays eventually overwhelm the opponent over the course of a game.  aggro decks don't look for tempo swings, they want to grab tempo early and kill you before they can loose it. 

    An example of a good "Tempo" card is Vilespine Slayer.  This card removes tempo from your opponents board and places tempo on your board with a 3/4.  Aggro doesn't care if  you have played a higher "tempo" card than them.  For example aggro plays a 2/1.  The opponent plays a 1/3 with rush in response and trades.  Technically the 1/3 rush is higher tempo, but aggro gives no shits.  They will just play more minions into that 1/3 trying to eek out as much damage as they can and hopefully kill the opponent before they can stabilize through their higher tempo or defensive plays.

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 0

    posted a message on Aggro killed the dragons
    Quote from Ace1a >>

    Just stick to BG till adventure and 2nd balance patch arrives. The first balance patch didn't do much except shave about 3% off shaman's oppressive winrate. Meta didn't really change except more aggro and less shamans, but they are still OP. Faceless Corruptor is still everywhere as a 4/4 too.

     Shaman is not OP, they are sooooo much easier to deal with.  I like how you said meta didn't change then went on to say all the ways it completely changed.  I don't know about you but an Midrange deck like Shaman went from being THE meta to aggro and pure aggresion being the meta is what I would call a pretty big shift.  Also yes faceless corruptor is still around a lot.  Did you ever think that the nerf wasn't made to make it disappear just knock it down from being OP as shit to just Really good?

    Posted in: Standard Format
  • 0

    posted a message on Shaman looking strong despite nerfs
    Quote from Joker_2k19 >>
    Quote from Velerios >>
    Quote from ADXE >>

    The plan was not to destroy the class.  

     I think this is that people here don't understand. It's not about destroying Galakrond Shaman, it's about making it slower. And yes, it works. Galakrond was strong with normal draws but totally insane with perfect ones. Now Galakrond shaman is still very strong with insane draws but weaker with normal ones. It's still a very solid deck, but now MUCH slower. And when we learned one in hearthstone is that Value doesn't matter, Tempo does.

    Quote from Joker_2k19 >>
    Quote from lartza >>

    Yeah shaman still looks really good, mogu+mutate can replace to tech against rogue and hunter and other nerfs i dont belive that would be that big impact. Faceless looks also still good car two 4/4 rush minions is still good hearthstone card.

     Yeah man for sure, Faceless Corruptor will still be a very solid minion. -1 Attack is hardly nothing.

     Sorry, but that's bullshit. There are MANY taunt-minions out there that have around 5 health. Just take Shield of Galakrond for example. Before you traded with one, and had an undamaged 5/4. Now you can't do that anymore. In worst case the enemy needs to deal with it now with both 4/4 to kill it and that's quite a bad turn.

    Between 5 attack and 4 attack are worlds in Hearthstone. And all in all it's 2 attack less. Enough? Maybe not, but it's far far better than before.

    Because at 5 attack is was broken. Right now it's still great for tempo/aggro decks. Even after the nerfs a lot of streamers still play the card so yeah that -1 attack did nothing.

     correct explanation, incorrect conclusion.  To say it did nothing isn't exactly correct.  Just because it's good enough still to be played hardly means it did nothing.  I don't understand why people see this as a binary only outcome.  It did something, there are a lot of things it can't cleanly trade into now and that is something.  Just because that the nerf wasn't enough to bury it into unplayablity doesn't mean that it did nothing.

    Also, AGAIN it's effectively -2 attack nerf, not a -1 attack nerf.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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