Blizzard is nothing else than a pure motor designed to make money. Youre not even allowed to make fun in games because its forbidden just like in RLF some acts are firbidden aswell LMAO!!!
Blizzard can't afford to back down on this position because it would increase software development costs dramatically. They are willing to pay people to police the players because it is far cheaper than producing software with a process that provides a higher level of assurance against latent design error, especially in the face of millions of hours of exhaustive use. This is not a critique of Blizzard - they have an obligation to maintain costs commensurate with their target consumer.
TCSR: No one is going to pay $5 a pack for 'bug-free Hearthstone'
Blizzard has a policy on this sort of thing and they are enforcing it, nothing more. If they had otherwise let this knowledge fester before/while working to fix it, the ladder would have been an absolute clusterfuck. All those people playing pirate warrior would have been the same people abusing it.
Well, the punishment was due to him spreading the knowledge of a bug/exploit publicly.
Tbh I'm on Toast's side. I also like to talk about these things just for educational purposes. It's something different than the typical content in many youtube channels - normal highlights of fairly interesting games. I don't do it with the intention, that I want to make everyone abuse them. But sadly not everyone thinks that way and that's why blizz takes precautions, in order for players not to ruin the game experience for others.
Blizzard has a policy on this sort of thing and they are enforcing it, nothing more. If they had otherwise let this knowledge fester before/while working to fix it, the ladder would have been an absolute clusterfuck. All those people playing pirate warrior would have been the same people abusing it.
Sorry, but this argumentation does not work. At all. Blizzard has a loooong history of letting bugs persist for way too long.
It says in the EULA (end license agreement) that you are of course not allowed to use Exploits, however in this case Toast was testing them to report the bug. This wouldn't have been a problem hadn't he streamed and shared this exploit. He repeatedly said that people should not use the exploit, but with thousands of people watching, it is impossible that no one is using the bug. He did something illegal (sharing the exploit), and he had to take the consequent, and to be hones it wasn't a long ban. Blizzard has all the rights to ban him for doing something the EULA tells him not to do. Toast even said in the stream that he probably shouldn't do it, but he continued.
For the record I enjoy watching Disguised Toast, and it is a bummer that he got banned, even if it was for a small amount of time. But I don't think Blizzard did something stupid, and they (Toast and Blizzard) now have an agreement for what to do the next time he discovers an exploit. For those of you that haven't watched the video, Toast is not allowed to show the exploit before Blizzards says it is fixed.
The annoying part is that the only banned toast AFTER he contacted Blizzard and informed them about the bug. He behaved honourably and they shit on him regardless.
Ad he explained it, he was banned because he publicly advertised the exploit that could be easily abused by players. Therefor he indirectly would be the cause and encouraging people to abuse something wrong in the game. He accepts the ban, he was more worried about being censored by Blizzard because most of the content he makes is based around bugs and exploits.
They have come to an agreement and he holds no hard feelings. They also have it in their agreement that we all accept that advertising sharing such exploits will result in a ban. It doesn't matter that he was honorable. He broke the rules, received a fair punishment and even came to an agreement wiwith Blizzard that is fair to both considering his position in the community.
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“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity” ― Sun Tzu
The annoying part is that the only banned toast AFTER he contacted Blizzard and informed them about the bug. He behaved honourably and they shit on him regardless.
Ad he explained it, he was banned because he publicly advertised the exploit that could be easily abused by players. Therefor he indirectly would be the cause and encouraging people to abuse something wrong in the game. He accepts the ban, he was more worried about being censored by Blizzard because most of the content he makes is based around bugs and exploits.
They have come to an agreement and he holds no hard feelings. They also have it in their agreement that we all accept that advertising sharing such exploits will result in a ban. It doesn't matter that he was honorable. He broke the rules, received a fair punishment and even came to an agreement wiwith Blizzard that is fair to both considering his position in the community.
I think this situation was fair, but I have some problems in my mind that could make decisions difficult:
1. What happens when during a stream bug comes up accidentaly? Does the streamer get banned too, because he exposed it to larger audience? This reasoning could make some problems IMO.
2. If Blizzard can silence everyone about the bugs, what happens if they decide just to not fix them? I mean, this bug involved fringe combination of cards that very, very rarely would accur in game, so they could decide not to make an effort to fix it as unlikey many will notice it. Blizzard has shown to be fairly slow to reacting to bugs (like everything involving Nozdormu ), so IMO this is a worry that could ruin some people experience.
Blizzard has a policy on this sort of thing and they are enforcing it, nothing more. If they had otherwise let this knowledge fester before/while working to fix it, the ladder would have been an absolute clusterfuck. All those people playing pirate warrior would have been the same people abusing it.
Sorry, but this argumentation does not work. At all. Blizzard has a loooong history of letting bugs persist for way too long.
At least this way they are forced to action.
In this case "bugs" is far too vague of a term. By saying that you are referring both to a bug that crashes the game and nets wins, and a bug that plays the rope animation twice when you click end turn. Not to mention their history is irrelevant to a policy and how they enforce it. They have every right to do this if they feel it is necessary to preserve integrity in the game for however short of a time.
Theres no need to force the developers to fix such an edge-case bug like that. One can just as easily discover and report it to them and they could have patched it in a timely manner without such a widespread mess. The exploit was pretty impactful for both players, but the existence for it did not have to be. If reported in a normal and reasonable manner they could have fixed it within a normal time frame without all the attention and hassle. Many people don't see that and just want to rip on blizzard because their favorite hearthstone personality got a suspension, and don't think any further.
It's "Hearthstone Patch 19632" that fixed it right? now I get why it was patched so suddenly.
Well toast did cause a bit of chaos I didn't meet this exploit but if some users at high ranks in wild, it's quite a significant thing..
3 days isn't a big deal and I think it's kind of a warning for him.. but blizzard should be thankful that there's a guy like toast who looks for those interactions..
3 days isn't a big deal and I think it's kind of a warning for him.. but blizzard should be thankful that there's a guy like toast who looks for those interactions..
I would say it was a warning for everyone not to do this. I agree though that he does find a lot of interesting things that otherwise may not have been discovered for a long time, but his streaming obviously can be a conflict interest depending on what he discovers.
> Blizz f**** up big time, again (yet another game winning bug) > Someone finds out > The information spreads > Someone with relevance spreads it exponentially > Blizz forced to fix their own big f****up (omg, that's terrible right? what kind of world do we live in? Small indie companies forced to clean up after their own f***ups, oh the humanity)
I don't care how hard it is, I actually appreciate how hard it is to avoid bugs. This doesn't change these facts:
1. It's blizzs fault 2. It's blizzs responsibility to fix it
Also, it would be expected that at least players who were affected by the bug to be compensated, if it is hard to track those down, compensate everyone. Not only does that not happen, they issue zero apologies and they actually punish a player for forcing them to get their s*** together. It's unbelievable. I feel like blizzard gets away with too much BS because they have a large fanbase. That's not healthy.
Well said, I couldn't agree more. I'm not surprised that no compensation is delivered either, nor do I expect it, nor will I argue for it, but your point is spot on.
If a bank has a critical vulnerability, you are still not entitled to rob it, and any public video about it equals to a guide on how to systematically rob a bank - that cannot be tolerated, even if it helped find the weakness.
Toast clearly had no bad intention, but his exploit digging is worth a reward only if it doesn't cause any harm - that is, only if his playtest is not published before the situation is secured.
Otherwise it is just as good as Goblin Engineering.
Bugs happen, it's the nature of coding. To call it a "fuck up" is pretty short-sighted. You can't test and identify and fix every single bug that exists, until you know they exist. The only compensation that is required is that they fix the bug, and they did. "Someone with relevance spreads it exponentially" was the entire problem, and that's the only reason this became an immediate issue.
They weren't "forced" to fix it, they would have fixed it regardless. They were put in a time-sensitive position where thousands of people were given word of this before they were given a chance to correct it. Imagine they instead responded with "We are aware of a game-breaking bug that causes the client to crash and award wins in error. Enjoy the exploit while we put this on our to-do list".
Do you think everyone would be more satisfied with this? No, everyone would be bitching and grabbing pitch forks and it would be chaos as more and more people took advantage of it. They could still accept payments, so why fix it immediately, right? I find it astounding that they are simultaneously criticized for the action they took and sarcastically referred to a "small indie company". They didn't put money first, and the size and caliber of their team does not make them magically able to code things 100% error free. They are all still human.
This was a very specific interaction of particular cards that likely existed since Mirage Caller, or perhaps even Herald Volazj entered the game. I mention Herald only because it does literally the same thing; for all of your minions. If anybody every played Herald Volazj they very likely would have stumbled upon something like this a year ago when Old Gods released, but that didn't happen until just recently.
Of course a more ignorant expectation would be that bugs should never happen and they are shit at their jobs if they do, and nobody should receive disciplinary action for using these to their advantage because it's their fault and they should have known and now free packs plz. Which seems to be the more common "logic", unfortunately.
I don't remotely see how anyone sides with Blizzard's decision making process in this mess whatsoever, other than you are making money from your relationship with Blizzard which Curse definitely does, so any comments from Curse staff falls on deaf ears (and why Toast himself tempers his explanation due this own admission of his desire to maintain it). So with that out of the way, Blizzard apologist aside, bugs are NOT a consumer's problem and should not be held responsible for there use period, regardless of any EULA agreement. A EULA agreement that has not been tested in court does not really hold muster and does not make the company magically right. Self imposed rules in a business environment where there is an implicit, ongoing (on-line gaming) consumer relationship are really not valid since they have not been tested or ruled valid by any entity other than Blizzard and its team of lawyers, so no Blizzard is not in the right here, though they may TELL you they are, does not make it so. Hearthstone is an ever evolving game with constantly changing content with a stagnant EULA that hold the consumer accountable. Any two bid consumer protection lawyer would have a field day with it.
I don't remotely see how anyone sides with Blizzard's decision making process in this mess whatsoever, other than you are making money from your relationship with Blizzard which Curse definitely does, so any comments from Curse staff falls on deaf ears (and why Toast himself tempers his explanation due this own admission of his desire to maintain it).
To be honest, he got off easy. If this was a not so known streamer he would get worse than a 3 day suspension. And he deserves what he gets and more, he was clearly wrong, and an idiot for showing it live on stream.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoLWxIwyNiE
Blizzard is nothing else than a pure motor designed to make money. Youre not even allowed to make fun in games because its forbidden just like in RLF some acts are firbidden aswell LMAO!!!
He exposed a bug on stream. And he even said on his twitter it was a fair punishment
Exposing bugs is the best way to get rid of them.
Software with open logs for security issues are generally the safest, because it a) forces action b) makes sure people are aware of the bug.
Blizzard is acting like a joke on this matter.
Blizzard can't afford to back down on this position because it would increase software development costs dramatically. They are willing to pay people to police the players because it is far cheaper than producing software with a process that provides a higher level of assurance against latent design error, especially in the face of millions of hours of exhaustive use. This is not a critique of Blizzard - they have an obligation to maintain costs commensurate with their target consumer.
TCSR: No one is going to pay $5 a pack for 'bug-free Hearthstone'
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Blizzard has a policy on this sort of thing and they are enforcing it, nothing more. If they had otherwise let this knowledge fester before/while working to fix it, the ladder would have been an absolute clusterfuck. All those people playing pirate warrior would have been the same people abusing it.
Well, the punishment was due to him spreading the knowledge of a bug/exploit publicly.
Tbh I'm on Toast's side. I also like to talk about these things just for educational purposes. It's something different than the typical content in many youtube channels - normal highlights of fairly interesting games. I don't do it with the intention, that I want to make everyone abuse them. But sadly not everyone thinks that way and that's why blizz takes precautions, in order for players not to ruin the game experience for others.
It says in the EULA (end license agreement) that you are of course not allowed to use Exploits, however in this case Toast was testing them to report the bug. This wouldn't have been a problem hadn't he streamed and shared this exploit. He repeatedly said that people should not use the exploit, but with thousands of people watching, it is impossible that no one is using the bug. He did something illegal (sharing the exploit), and he had to take the consequent, and to be hones it wasn't a long ban. Blizzard has all the rights to ban him for doing something the EULA tells him not to do. Toast even said in the stream that he probably shouldn't do it, but he continued.
For the record I enjoy watching Disguised Toast, and it is a bummer that he got banned, even if it was for a small amount of time. But I don't think Blizzard did something stupid, and they (Toast and Blizzard) now have an agreement for what to do the next time he discovers an exploit. For those of you that haven't watched the video, Toast is not allowed to show the exploit before Blizzards says it is fixed.
Taz'dingo! Ye-e-es!
Rank last season: Legend rank 5477
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity” ― Sun Tzu
My current disaster-piece
It's "Hearthstone Patch 19632" that fixed it right? now I get why it was patched so suddenly.
Well toast did cause a bit of chaos I didn't meet this exploit but if some users at high ranks in wild, it's quite a significant thing..
3 days isn't a big deal and I think it's kind of a warning for him.. but blizzard should be thankful that there's a guy like toast who looks for those interactions..
Honestly, I can't help but think this way:
> Blizz f**** up big time, again (yet another game winning bug)
> Someone finds out
> The information spreads
> Someone with relevance spreads it exponentially
> Blizz forced to fix their own big f****up (omg, that's terrible right? what kind of world do we live in? Small indie companies forced to clean up after their own f***ups, oh the humanity)
I don't care how hard it is, I actually appreciate how hard it is to avoid bugs. This doesn't change these facts:
1. It's blizzs fault
2. It's blizzs responsibility to fix it
Also, it would be expected that at least players who were affected by the bug to be compensated, if it is hard to track those down, compensate everyone. Not only does that not happen, they issue zero apologies and they actually punish a player for forcing them to get their s*** together. It's unbelievable. I feel like blizzard gets away with too much BS because they have a large fanbase. That's not healthy.
If a bank has a critical vulnerability, you are still not entitled to rob it, and any public video about it equals to a guide on how to systematically rob a bank - that cannot be tolerated, even if it helped find the weakness.
Toast clearly had no bad intention, but his exploit digging is worth a reward only if it doesn't cause any harm - that is, only if his playtest is not published before the situation is secured.
Otherwise it is just as good as Goblin Engineering.
Bugs happen, it's the nature of coding. To call it a "fuck up" is pretty short-sighted. You can't test and identify and fix every single bug that exists, until you know they exist. The only compensation that is required is that they fix the bug, and they did. "Someone with relevance spreads it exponentially" was the entire problem, and that's the only reason this became an immediate issue.
They weren't "forced" to fix it, they would have fixed it regardless. They were put in a time-sensitive position where thousands of people were given word of this before they were given a chance to correct it. Imagine they instead responded with "We are aware of a game-breaking bug that causes the client to crash and award wins in error. Enjoy the exploit while we put this on our to-do list".
Do you think everyone would be more satisfied with this? No, everyone would be bitching and grabbing pitch forks and it would be chaos as more and more people took advantage of it. They could still accept payments, so why fix it immediately, right? I find it astounding that they are simultaneously criticized for the action they took and sarcastically referred to a "small indie company". They didn't put money first, and the size and caliber of their team does not make them magically able to code things 100% error free. They are all still human.
This was a very specific interaction of particular cards that likely existed since Mirage Caller, or perhaps even Herald Volazj entered the game. I mention Herald only because it does literally the same thing; for all of your minions. If anybody every played Herald Volazj they very likely would have stumbled upon something like this a year ago when Old Gods released, but that didn't happen until just recently.
Of course a more ignorant expectation would be that bugs should never happen and they are shit at their jobs if they do, and nobody should receive disciplinary action for using these to their advantage because it's their fault and they should have known and now free packs plz. Which seems to be the more common "logic", unfortunately.
I don't remotely see how anyone sides with Blizzard's decision making process in this mess whatsoever, other than you are making money from your relationship with Blizzard which Curse definitely does, so any comments from Curse staff falls on deaf ears (and why Toast himself tempers his explanation due this own admission of his desire to maintain it). So with that out of the way, Blizzard apologist aside, bugs are NOT a consumer's problem and should not be held responsible for there use period, regardless of any EULA agreement. A EULA agreement that has not been tested in court does not really hold muster and does not make the company magically right. Self imposed rules in a business environment where there is an implicit, ongoing (on-line gaming) consumer relationship are really not valid since they have not been tested or ruled valid by any entity other than Blizzard and its team of lawyers, so no Blizzard is not in the right here, though they may TELL you they are, does not make it so. Hearthstone is an ever evolving game with constantly changing content with a stagnant EULA that hold the consumer accountable. Any two bid consumer protection lawyer would have a field day with it.
To be honest, he got off easy. If this was a not so known streamer he would get worse than a 3 day suspension. And he deserves what he gets and more, he was clearly wrong, and an idiot for showing it live on stream.