Oh, come on, stop nerfing or HoFaming Preparation. If u HoF Prep, just hof Sprint and any other 6+ cards like Cannon Barrage thats actually do nothing for its full cost. The only 6+ card that can exist without Prep is Vanish, because it's just fair for what it does for both opponents. Or make all 6+ card worthy its cost.
This is the dilemma. If prep was HoF'd, they'd have to rebalance the whole Rogue classic set at the very least.
TBH most rogue spells are probably printed with Prep taking into consideration, so a lot more than the classic set would be effected.
Removing prep would seriously damage Rogue, if some major rebalancing didn't accompany it.
Oh, come on, stop nerfing or HoFaming Preparation. If u HoF Prep, just hof Sprint and any other 6+ cards like Cannon Barrage thats actually do nothing for its full cost. The only 6+ card that can exist without Prep is Vanish, because it's just fair for what it does for both opponents. Or make all 6+ card worthy its cost.
This is the dilemma. If prep was HoF'd, they'd have to rebalance the whole Rogue classic set at the very least.
TBH most rogue spells are probably printed with Prep taking into consideration, so a lot more than the classic set would be effected.
Removing prep would seriously damage Rogue, if some major rebalancing didn't accompany it.
For this reason, I doubt they'll touch prep.
It's almost like most people on these forums are ignorant to how the game actually works. I don't need to bring up how badly the majority of card evaluation is done here, the nerf Prep argument as you eloquently put it highlights the obvious shallowness of the "debate" regarding the overall balance of the game.
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I think they'll probably change Waggle Pick. In the past, according to Blizzard, when a card seemed to be an "auto include" it got nerfed. I suspect that's the case for Rogue decks so Waggle Pick will get smacked. Raiding Party will probably be left alone if the weapon isn't so juicy to draw. Anyone remember Kingsbane? It was awful. In that case, Raiding Party could draw a weapon that was returned to the deck with enchantments, including life steal. I suspect that a nerf on Waggle Pick will be viewed as enough. Before the rotation there were viable Rogue decks that did not include the other cards so consistently (Preparation was left out often enough, even, giving priority to other cards.)
Oh, come on, stop nerfing or HoFaming Preparation. If u HoF Prep, just hof Sprint and any other 6+ cards like Cannon Barrage thats actually do nothing for its full cost. The only 6+ card that can exist without Prep is Vanish, because it's just fair for what it does for both opponents. Or make all 6+ card worthy its cost.
This is the dilemma. If prep was HoF'd, they'd have to rebalance the whole Rogue classic set at the very least.
TBH most rogue spells are probably printed with Prep taking into consideration, so a lot more than the classic set would be effected.
Removing prep would seriously damage Rogue, if some major rebalancing didn't accompany it.
For this reason, I doubt they'll touch prep.
It's almost like most people on these forums are ignorant to how the game actually works. I don't need to bring up how badly the majority of card evaluation is done here, the nerf Prep argument as you eloquently put it highlights the obvious shallowness of the "debate" regarding the overall balance of the game.
Do you agree then that you can't just simply "nerf prep" or get rid of it. a lot was balanced with prep in mind, removing it would have catastrophic results.
Even the aggressive rogue decks need prep these days, it's not just miracle rogue. Not to mention it would completely kill off Edwin.
Its fairly obvious how strong rogue is atm. The only reason the winrates dont completely reflect that is because most decks are tech against them. In the last 3 days 24% of decks played at legend are tempo rogue, with 11% control warrior in second. Pretty obvious whats going on here.
Its fairly obvious how strong rogue is atm. The only reason the winrates dont completely reflect that is because most decks are tech against them. In the last 3 days 24% of decks played at legend are tempo rogue, with 11% control warrior in second. Pretty obvious whats going on here.
if tempo rogue is the most played thing and I was concerned with laddering, I'd just pick the best counter I could build, and play that. The key right now is to just have counter decks cued for the most prevalent decks where you are on ladder. You start facing loads of one thing then counter it. You can't always get it right, but if a certain deck is very popular, then playing something that smashes it is just common sense IMO.
I've not actually looked up what fully counters tempo rogue, as I normally am playing control shaman which beats it 8/10 times anyway. I imagine Fatigue Warrior laughs at Tempo Rogue though?
Also anything with taunts, rogue hates taunts and most of them do not run any hard removal.
Its fairly obvious how strong rogue is atm. The only reason the winrates dont completely reflect that is because most decks are tech against them. In the last 3 days 24% of decks played at legend are tempo rogue, with 11% control warrior in second. Pretty obvious whats going on here.
if tempo rogue is the most played thing and I was concerned with laddering, I'd just pick the best counter I could build, and play that. The key right now is to just have counter decks cued for the most prevalent decks where you are on ladder. You start facing loads of one thing then counter it. You can't always get it right, but if a certain deck is very popular, then playing something that smashes it is just common sense IMO.
I've not actually looked up what fully counters tempo rogue, as I normally am playing control shaman which beats it 8/10 times anyway. I imagine Fatigue Warrior laughs at Tempo Rogue though?
Also anything with taunts, rogue hates taunts and most of them do not run any hard removal.
When a deck is so heavily represented and still has no major counters besides control warrior yet most decks tech against it then we have an issue. Its quite similar to how Jade druid warped the meta until its nerf. On a side note, i absolutely love the meta atm and im not complaining about it at all. Simply pointing out how playrates at high levels of play are a better indicator of strength than static winrates.
Can we just stop with nerfing rogue all of the time already and nerf some other class that almost never gets a nerf (particularly dodges class nerfs constantly)?
Rogue:
Nerf Miracle Rogue by rotating Conceal
Nerf Mill by rotating Oracle (I personally don't mind this one at all)
Nerf Quest Rogue, twice
Nerf Tempo Rogue in two ways
Indirect nerf to the old Maly Rogue (With sinisters)
Meanwhile, take a look at how frequently classes like warlock, mage, or priest actually get nerfed.
Rogue has no class heals, they have no board clears, they have been given almost no control tools or value engines to even experiment with control is most standard metas. The key isn't to lower their tempo capabilities since they have consistently been left out of the full selection of playstyles (while schitzophrenic warrior & priest get to play control/hyper aggro/midrange/tempo/fatigue and control/combo/otk/fatigue respectively).
The point of tech cards isn't to instead get something nerfed so that you no longer have to tech for the meta, resulting in abandoning said tech. Also, rogue weapons aren't the only weapons being teched against in the meta. Let's not pretend that rogues are the sole reason people are running weapon hate.
The point of tech cards isn't to instead get something nerfed so that you no longer have to tech for the meta, resulting in abandoning said tech. Also, rogue weapons aren't the only weapons being teched against in the meta. Let's not pretend that rogues are the sole reason people are running weapon hate.
Look at the matchup data of tempo rogue by class. Over 55% winrate against > control shaman, khadgar mage, mech paladin, mech hunter, Nomi priest, Zoo lock, Token druid . Why do you need to force us to play control warrior just because you think rogue is fine and fun, any other class gets oppressed to oblivion.
The point of tech cards isn't to instead get something nerfed so that you no longer have to tech for the meta, resulting in abandoning said tech. Also, rogue weapons aren't the only weapons being teched against in the meta. Let's not pretend that rogues are the sole reason people are running weapon hate.
3 tech and you still lose 55% looks fine for you ?
Can we just stop with nerfing rogue all of the time already and nerf some other class that almost never gets a nerf (particularly dodges class nerfs constantly)?
Rogue:
Nerf Miracle Rogue by rotating Conceal
Nerf Mill by rotating Oracle (I personally don't mind this one at all)
Nerf Quest Rogue, twice
Nerf Tempo Rogue in two ways
Indirect nerf to the old Maly Rogue (With sinisters)
Meanwhile, take a look at how frequently classes like warlock, mage, or priest actually get nerfed.
Rogue has no class heals, they have no board clears, they have been given almost no control tools or value engines to even experiment with control is most standard metas. The key isn't to lower their tempo capabilities since they have consistently been left out of the full selection of playstyles (while schitzophrenic warrior & priest get to play control/hyper aggro/midrange/tempo/fatigue and control/combo/otk/fatigue respectively).
I understand that you must love playing Rogue, but your post is pretty disingenuous. You act as if the devs pick on Rogue time and time again, which just isn't the case. If you don't believe me, go look at the previous World Championship decks, which have each had multiple cards nerfed or hall of famed. Furthermore, Rogue has been in the winning line up of all 4 World Champions so far and with 15 out of 16 players bringing Rogue to the current World Championship, it looks like it will soon be a 5th year straight of strong Rogue decks. Rogue hasn't ever been bad. Rogue has arguably the strongest classic set in the game, which always gives them an opportunity to make strong tempo or miracle decks.
For the record here are the many, many, many decks that have had cards nerfed and/or Hall of Famed in the past 5 years. I might miss something, but you'll get the point.
Druid:
Token Druid (Force of Nature, Ancient of Lore, Keeper of the Grove, Spreading Plague)
Druid in general (Innervate, Wild Growth and Nourish)
Star-Aligner Druid (Aviana)
Fatigue Druid (Naturalize)
Hunter:
Aggro/Midrange Hunter's neutral and class minions (Undertaker, Leper Gnome, Abusive Sergeant, Knife Juggler, Arcane Golem, Ironbeak Owl, Starving Buzzard, Leeroy, Emerald Spellstone, Call of the Wild)
Hunter's Removal (Hunter's Mark twice, Flare, Unleash the Hounds)
Pirate Warrior (Small Time Buccaneer, Patches the Pirate, Firey War Axe)
Patron Warrior (Warsong Commander)
TLDR: Every class besides Priest has had at least several cards nerfed. It should come as no surprise to you why Priest hasn't been nerfed very often. Priest was fairly mediocre until Raza, Kazakus and Shadowreaper Anduin were released. If you are going to make incorrect and sweeping generalizations about the state of the game, at least don't let them be so easy to debunk. This is a digital card game. It would be a wasted opportunity to not nerf cards to level the playing field. If you want to play a card game with no nerfs, go play a paper card game like MTG or Yu-Gi-Oh where your broken cards just get banned instead, leaving them unplayable. Doesn't that sound better /s
PS: I'm wondering how your personal biases are going to get you out of this one.
So I was playing a few games against a friend with temporogue. I really don´t know whats your problem. Out of about 8-10 Games I´ve got four games a really, really terrible draw.
One game I just had Backstep, Prep and Shadowstep on hand. Not one Minion!
One game I didn´t draw any rading party and non of the taunts!
These games were a totally disaster as you can emagine.
So I don´t know what your problem is.
Or maybe it is just me, cause of terrible draw I often have. It´s the same why all people complaining about Barnes in BigPriest. I was playing BigPriest in standard a little bit and really didn´t need Barnes to be honest. I didn´t draw Barnes in the earlygame either, or he gave me the only minion I didn´t want. This happend about 7-8 times out of 10 games. So I never understood the hype of this card. But well there are people outside who are much more lucky then me by drawing the right card at the right moment.
Same here with temporogue. Without a good draw as well, you can quit immediately. And thats not the first time when I was playing rogue I just had some useless spells on hand and not one minion. That happens very often, believe me.
So please try to play this deck just for a few games and you will see.
You do realize that if they nerf both warrior and rogue, we are going back to hunter meta? Atm midrange hunter and mech hunter are pretty strong decks that will stomp ladder once they nerf warrior and/or rogue...
I believe that Prep, Backstab, SI:7, and Edwin have been in every HCT Championship winning line up. Since Roger won't win, they will be this time too. Let's start there.
I think nerfing Prep is the right move. Make it reduce a spell by 2 instead of 3. Rogue has some really insane tempo swings at 3 mana and it's because you can prep out a high value 3-cost spell AND play something that is pro-tempo/value, like EVIL Miscreant, SI:7, or Edwin. Alternately, you can nerf the 3-cost spells by increasing the cost by 1. Make Fan and Raiding Party cost 4.
Or move Prep to the HoF, which would be fine with me as I have a golden version. :)
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I think nerfing Prep is the right move. Make it reduce a spell by 2 instead of 3. Rogue has some really insane tempo swings at 3 mana and it's because you can prep out a high value 3-cost spell AND play something that is pro-tempo/value, like EVIL Miscreant, SI:7, or Edwin. Alternately, you can nerf the 3-cost spells by increasing the cost by 1. Make Fan and Raiding Party cost 4.
Or move Prep to the HoF, which would be fine with me as I have a golden version. :)
Nah, Fan is very fair at 3 mana, i would never nerf that. Raiding Party is a bit more difficult, because an increase of its cost could kill more decks including it - wild ones too.
Your idea for prep is ok, but i'd rather see itself cost 1 mana and have the same effect. This way you cant play anything along it at turn 3.
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This is the dilemma. If prep was HoF'd, they'd have to rebalance the whole Rogue classic set at the very least.
TBH most rogue spells are probably printed with Prep taking into consideration, so a lot more than the classic set would be effected.
Removing prep would seriously damage Rogue, if some major rebalancing didn't accompany it.
For this reason, I doubt they'll touch prep.
It's almost like most people on these forums are ignorant to how the game actually works. I don't need to bring up how badly the majority of card evaluation is done here, the nerf Prep argument as you eloquently put it highlights the obvious shallowness of the "debate" regarding the overall balance of the game.
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
I think they'll probably change Waggle Pick. In the past, according to Blizzard, when a card seemed to be an "auto include" it got nerfed. I suspect that's the case for Rogue decks so Waggle Pick will get smacked. Raiding Party will probably be left alone if the weapon isn't so juicy to draw. Anyone remember Kingsbane? It was awful. In that case, Raiding Party could draw a weapon that was returned to the deck with enchantments, including life steal. I suspect that a nerf on Waggle Pick will be viewed as enough. Before the rotation there were viable Rogue decks that did not include the other cards so consistently (Preparation was left out often enough, even, giving priority to other cards.)
They will have to either hall of fame preperation or they will have to nerf it. It's simply too good with raiding party.
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Do you agree then that you can't just simply "nerf prep" or get rid of it. a lot was balanced with prep in mind, removing it would have catastrophic results.
Even the aggressive rogue decks need prep these days, it's not just miracle rogue. Not to mention it would completely kill off Edwin.
Its fairly obvious how strong rogue is atm. The only reason the winrates dont completely reflect that is because most decks are tech against them. In the last 3 days 24% of decks played at legend are tempo rogue, with 11% control warrior in second. Pretty obvious whats going on here.
if tempo rogue is the most played thing and I was concerned with laddering, I'd just pick the best counter I could build, and play that. The key right now is to just have counter decks cued for the most prevalent decks where you are on ladder. You start facing loads of one thing then counter it. You can't always get it right, but if a certain deck is very popular, then playing something that smashes it is just common sense IMO.
I've not actually looked up what fully counters tempo rogue, as I normally am playing control shaman which beats it 8/10 times anyway. I imagine Fatigue Warrior laughs at Tempo Rogue though?
Also anything with taunts, rogue hates taunts and most of them do not run any hard removal.
When a deck is so heavily represented and still has no major counters besides control warrior yet most decks tech against it then we have an issue. Its quite similar to how Jade druid warped the meta until its nerf. On a side note, i absolutely love the meta atm and im not complaining about it at all. Simply pointing out how playrates at high levels of play are a better indicator of strength than static winrates.
Just play control warrior, big shaman, mech hunter and problem solve
Can we just stop with nerfing rogue all of the time already and nerf some other class that almost never gets a nerf (particularly dodges class nerfs constantly)?
Rogue:
Meanwhile, take a look at how frequently classes like warlock, mage, or priest actually get nerfed.
Rogue has no class heals, they have no board clears, they have been given almost no control tools or value engines to even experiment with control is most standard metas. The key isn't to lower their tempo capabilities since they have consistently been left out of the full selection of playstyles (while schitzophrenic warrior & priest get to play control/hyper aggro/midrange/tempo/fatigue and control/combo/otk/fatigue respectively).
rogue needs a hard nerf.
everyone is using 2x ooze and Harrison Jones...
still not enough...
The point of tech cards isn't to instead get something nerfed so that you no longer have to tech for the meta, resulting in abandoning said tech. Also, rogue weapons aren't the only weapons being teched against in the meta. Let's not pretend that rogues are the sole reason people are running weapon hate.
Look at the matchup data of tempo rogue by class.
Over 55% winrate against > control shaman, khadgar mage, mech paladin, mech hunter, Nomi priest, Zoo lock, Token druid .
Why do you need to force us to play control warrior just because you think rogue is fine and fun, any other class gets oppressed to oblivion.
3 tech and you still lose 55% looks fine for you ?
I understand that you must love playing Rogue, but your post is pretty disingenuous. You act as if the devs pick on Rogue time and time again, which just isn't the case. If you don't believe me, go look at the previous World Championship decks, which have each had multiple cards nerfed or hall of famed. Furthermore, Rogue has been in the winning line up of all 4 World Champions so far and with 15 out of 16 players bringing Rogue to the current World Championship, it looks like it will soon be a 5th year straight of strong Rogue decks. Rogue hasn't ever been bad. Rogue has arguably the strongest classic set in the game, which always gives them an opportunity to make strong tempo or miracle decks.
For the record here are the many, many, many decks that have had cards nerfed and/or Hall of Famed in the past 5 years. I might miss something, but you'll get the point.
Druid:
Hunter:
Mage:
Paladin:
Priest:
Shaman:
Warlock:
Warrior:
TLDR: Every class besides Priest has had at least several cards nerfed. It should come as no surprise to you why Priest hasn't been nerfed very often. Priest was fairly mediocre until Raza, Kazakus and Shadowreaper Anduin were released. If you are going to make incorrect and sweeping generalizations about the state of the game, at least don't let them be so easy to debunk. This is a digital card game. It would be a wasted opportunity to not nerf cards to level the playing field. If you want to play a card game with no nerfs, go play a paper card game like MTG or Yu-Gi-Oh where your broken cards just get banned instead, leaving them unplayable. Doesn't that sound better /s
PS: I'm wondering how your personal biases are going to get you out of this one.
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So I was playing a few games against a friend with temporogue. I really don´t know whats your problem. Out of about 8-10 Games I´ve got four games a really, really terrible draw.
One game I just had Backstep, Prep and Shadowstep on hand. Not one Minion!
One game I didn´t draw any rading party and non of the taunts!
These games were a totally disaster as you can emagine.
So I don´t know what your problem is.
Or maybe it is just me, cause of terrible draw I often have. It´s the same why all people complaining about Barnes in BigPriest. I was playing BigPriest in standard a little bit and really didn´t need Barnes to be honest. I didn´t draw Barnes in the earlygame either, or he gave me the only minion I didn´t want. This happend about 7-8 times out of 10 games. So I never understood the hype of this card. But well there are people outside who are much more lucky then me by drawing the right card at the right moment.
Same here with temporogue. Without a good draw as well, you can quit immediately. And thats not the first time when I was playing rogue I just had some useless spells on hand and not one minion. That happens very often, believe me.
So please try to play this deck just for a few games and you will see.
You do realize that if they nerf both warrior and rogue, we are going back to hunter meta? Atm midrange hunter and mech hunter are pretty strong decks that will stomp ladder once they nerf warrior and/or rogue...
I believe that Prep, Backstab, SI:7, and Edwin have been in every HCT Championship winning line up. Since Roger won't win, they will be this time too. Let's start there.
I think nerfing Prep is the right move. Make it reduce a spell by 2 instead of 3. Rogue has some really insane tempo swings at 3 mana and it's because you can prep out a high value 3-cost spell AND play something that is pro-tempo/value, like EVIL Miscreant, SI:7, or Edwin. Alternately, you can nerf the 3-cost spells by increasing the cost by 1. Make Fan and Raiding Party cost 4.
Or move Prep to the HoF, which would be fine with me as I have a golden version. :)
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Nah, Fan is very fair at 3 mana, i would never nerf that. Raiding Party is a bit more difficult, because an increase of its cost could kill more decks including it - wild ones too.
Your idea for prep is ok, but i'd rather see itself cost 1 mana and have the same effect. This way you cant play anything along it at turn 3.
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