I feel that this meta is filled with almost decks that contain win condition. Shudderwock is burned, they concede. Hadronox is burned, they concede. DK Jaina is burned, they concede. They just wait to draw the key card then the win is sealed. If it is burned or death gripped, they quit. Why not playing until the end and fight for a win?
Public Mod Note
(SlydE):
Edited title, was misleading
There is no such thing called "skill" in hearthstone. You can't determine all the outcomes since it's based on drawing cards which completely depends on luck. You must make good decisions with the cards you're given ( if you are an experienced player there are other factors like reading your opponent's hand or waiting the right moment for playing the card etc.) but that's not skill. Skill is being good at football or being very good at piano.
Definitely going to have to disagree with you there. You said yourself that it requires good decision making, and that there is a differentiation between and experienced play and inexperienced. That absolutely is what it means for a game to involve skill.
There is a lot of RNG (and hence luck) involved, but to say there is no skill at all is demonstrably untrue. Trust me, I've seen a 5 year-old trying to play HS...
Then there is also what you described, which is an outcome of opponent's skill as above + rng.
So yes, skill still matters. It just that in some matchups you need a specific card to survive, which you selected exactly for that purpose, typically DK cards, which single-handedly turn a Midrange deck into Control. If that fails, you may not have the tools for lategame and fatigue.
And combo decks are obviously more vulnerable to that skill+rng factor since like the introduction of Deathlord i guess.
If a wincondition or a contextual wincondition is burned, why keep playing?
Skill is there. But the game cannot be solely governed by superior skill.
I feel that this meta is filled with almost decks that contain win condition. Shudderwock is burned, they concede. Hadronox is burned, they concede. DK Jaina is burned, they concede. They just wait to draw the key card then the win is sealed. If it is burned or death gripped, they quit. Why not playing until the end and fight for a win?
Edit: Now that i think about it, evenlock is crap,smorc decks are crap, big spell mage is crap basically every top atm deck is like nerfed version of big priest. Pray to highroll and lose instandly when you don't
Whether there is skill or it's entirely down to luck of the draw is an argument about cardgames that will never end. It's like with poker - many people think it's just pure gambling, and others recognize the skill involved - it's not a coincidence that you see the same handful of players going deep into the tournaments.
There is a lot less to hearthstone than poker, but still - just because there is luck involved doesn't negate the skill involved. Yes, you can play 100% correctly and still lose, or play like a moron and win, but in the long run the better player will win more. Even with Shudderwock shamans where it seems like they just kick back and assemble their combo, there are still ways to misplay so even if the skill ceiling is low for a certain deck, it still exists.
Did you ever try to play a deck which is built around winning with a certain card? There is actually no reason to keep playing when your only out to win the game is gone.
It’s really simple op, win condition means that the only way that deck is able to win is that particular card or combo, or for aggro decks is killing the opponent fast. However there are some good decks, like some Shudderwocks, that can win even if the key card is burned because of the +1/+1 from kheleseth, Agatha and a lot of minions/spells. Many people just concede even if they can win because netdecking is a thing and not everyone knows his deck well enough to say:”Well i can still win”. Also, there are some decks that have multiple win conditions, even Shudderwock and Taunt Druid can win without their key cards, but it’s very difficoult to win that way and it might take some unwanted time, that’s why they concede.
Why did the thread title change? It completely changes the question we all answered. Wasn't the original "does skill matter in the current meta" or something similar?
To get past the, and I'm sorry for the bluntness, stupid "Skill vs luck" arguments.
(Edit: Sorry, I fell right into the stupid "skill vs luck" argument. Above line stays to mark my shame :( )
Every deck has only so much 'ammo': so many ways to fight against other decks. Win conditions essentially.
Now for most decks these conditions are built into their deck design. "build a board fast before the opponent can respond and win" "Draw out X, Y removal then drop Z" "always hold the board while picking off the health piece by piece"
A deck can have multiple win conditions, or alternative methods of winning. For example Shudderwock decks can win by the Big Combo or by playing a Midrange styled game where they drop big bombs that you can't stop in time. Big Spell Mage can tear you down with their end-game big threats or focus on the fatigue game.
However, it's not unusual to end up in situations where, giving your deck and your opponent, all of those avenues go away. If you're a mage who's out of big threats and 4 cards ahead of fatigue against your opponent, you have no way to win. A miracle rogue can literally run out of damage, as is you can flat out count the amount of damage in your deck you can use against the opponent, realize it's less than the opponent has health+healing ability, and CANNOT beat your opponent even if they never hit your face. This is why analysts always ask the question "How do you win from this point?"
So yes, there will be a point where the game SEEMS undecided, but it's over. This isn't a skill or luck thing. This is a Game thing. When you see "Guaranteed checkmate in 3 turns." you don't need to wait for the king to drop dead.
Now add to that the fact that many decks only play easy when you have your primary win condition, and that alternatives tend to be harder to achieve. Many of the current decks, such as big spell mage and Shudderwock Shaman are of that type: they run easy when you can mindlessly play to your final combo, but when things turn south you haven't lost but it's no longer easy.
This is where most people quit the game, run over here, then say "the game is 100% luck." They don't know how to make such a deck work when it's not running it's primary win condition, so they lose or quit instead of analyzing alternative routes and seeing if the game is actually unwinnable. When your entire gameplan is "prey for the God Mode or quit." then you really are just running a slot machine.
So yeah, it's a combination. Decks have a limited set of win conditions that you can destroy leaving them in an unwinnable situation. Also most people don't play at anything past a rudimentary level and to them there is no Plan B or alternative way to win.
A note: if you're not in the upper legend ranks, you're probably mostly facing the latter.
I feel that this meta is filled with almost decks that contain win condition. Shudderwock is burned, they concede. Hadronox is burned, they concede. DK Jaina is burned, they concede. They just wait to draw the key card then the win is sealed. If it is burned or death gripped, they quit. Why not playing until the end and fight for a win?
What do you mean that THIS meta is filled with decks with win conditions ._. Every deck from every meta ever has and will have a win condition, it may not be a specific card but still. every deck has a win condition either a fatigue, or run the opponent out of resources or pure pressure with a bunch of minions. To answer your question it's cause if your deck is based around a card or a certain combo and you either can't win or you would need a miracle to win after you lose that card then what's the point of playing the game if you have a huge chance of still losing, I can just concede and use that time to look for another game and play that, a game that I can win and don't have to pray I get lucky af or my opponent fucks up.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I feel that this meta is filled with almost decks that contain win condition. Shudderwock is burned, they concede. Hadronox is burned, they concede. DK Jaina is burned, they concede.
They just wait to draw the key card then the win is sealed. If it is burned or death gripped, they quit. Why not playing until the end and fight for a win?
Has it mattered since pirate warrior became a deck?
There is no such thing called "skill" in hearthstone. You can't determine all the outcomes since it's based on drawing cards which completely depends on luck. You must make good decisions with the cards you're given ( if you are an experienced player there are other factors like reading your opponent's hand or waiting the right moment for playing the card etc.) but that's not skill. Skill is being good at football or being very good at piano.
Isn't making the right decisions to optimize your winrate the skill? Starting from tech cards/Mulligan up to knowing when to concede (ladder)?
You could argue there is no talent in HS but even that seems wrong to me.
Definitely going to have to disagree with you there. You said yourself that it requires good decision making, and that there is a differentiation between and experienced play and inexperienced. That absolutely is what it means for a game to involve skill.
There is a lot of RNG (and hence luck) involved, but to say there is no skill at all is demonstrably untrue. Trust me, I've seen a 5 year-old trying to play HS...
Its all about experience and knowledge, there is no skill or talent in this game
Edit: mostly LUCK
17
Skill in deckbuilding and skill in playing it.
Then there is also what you described, which is an outcome of opponent's skill as above + rng.
So yes, skill still matters. It just that in some matchups you need a specific card to survive, which you selected exactly for that purpose, typically DK cards, which single-handedly turn a Midrange deck into Control. If that fails, you may not have the tools for lategame and fatigue.
And combo decks are obviously more vulnerable to that skill+rng factor since like the introduction of Deathlord i guess.
If a wincondition or a contextual wincondition is burned, why keep playing?
Skill is there. But the game cannot be solely governed by superior skill.
Because that is really inefficient to ladder.
Shudderwock and taunt druid exist so no. :P
Edit: Now that i think about it, evenlock is crap,smorc decks are crap, big spell mage is crap basically every top atm deck is like nerfed version of big priest. Pray to highroll and lose instandly when you don't
Hearthstone is 99% luck & 1% skill
America
It's 90% luck
1% skill
9% concentrated power of will
10% pleasure
90 % pain
And 100% reason to delete the game
Whether there is skill or it's entirely down to luck of the draw is an argument about cardgames that will never end. It's like with poker - many people think it's just pure gambling, and others recognize the skill involved - it's not a coincidence that you see the same handful of players going deep into the tournaments.
There is a lot less to hearthstone than poker, but still - just because there is luck involved doesn't negate the skill involved. Yes, you can play 100% correctly and still lose, or play like a moron and win, but in the long run the better player will win more. Even with Shudderwock shamans where it seems like they just kick back and assemble their combo, there are still ways to misplay so even if the skill ceiling is low for a certain deck, it still exists.
To the OP:
Did you ever try to play a deck which is built around winning with a certain card? There is actually no reason to keep playing when your only out to win the game is gone.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
It’s really simple op, win condition means that the only way that deck is able to win is that particular card or combo, or for aggro decks is killing the opponent fast. However there are some good decks, like some Shudderwocks, that can win even if the key card is burned because of the +1/+1 from kheleseth, Agatha and a lot of minions/spells. Many people just concede even if they can win because netdecking is a thing and not everyone knows his deck well enough to say:”Well i can still win”. Also, there are some decks that have multiple win conditions, even Shudderwock and Taunt Druid can win without their key cards, but it’s very difficoult to win that way and it might take some unwanted time, that’s why they concede.
And i don’t even play Paladins
Why did the thread title change? It completely changes the question we all answered. Wasn't the original "does skill matter in the current meta" or something similar?
Nice bait and switch title Jebaited
Skill and experience can only take you so far. In the end, luck is the deciding factor.
You already answered yourself.... why create a thread when you already know the answer?
To get past the, and I'm sorry for the bluntness, stupid "Skill vs luck" arguments.(Edit: Sorry, I fell right into the stupid "skill vs luck" argument. Above line stays to mark my shame :( )
Every deck has only so much 'ammo': so many ways to fight against other decks. Win conditions essentially.
Now for most decks these conditions are built into their deck design. "build a board fast before the opponent can respond and win" "Draw out X, Y removal then drop Z" "always hold the board while picking off the health piece by piece"
A deck can have multiple win conditions, or alternative methods of winning. For example Shudderwock decks can win by the Big Combo or by playing a Midrange styled game where they drop big bombs that you can't stop in time. Big Spell Mage can tear you down with their end-game big threats or focus on the fatigue game.
However, it's not unusual to end up in situations where, giving your deck and your opponent, all of those avenues go away. If you're a mage who's out of big threats and 4 cards ahead of fatigue against your opponent, you have no way to win. A miracle rogue can literally run out of damage, as is you can flat out count the amount of damage in your deck you can use against the opponent, realize it's less than the opponent has health+healing ability, and CANNOT beat your opponent even if they never hit your face. This is why analysts always ask the question "How do you win from this point?"
So yes, there will be a point where the game SEEMS undecided, but it's over. This isn't a skill or luck thing. This is a Game thing. When you see "Guaranteed checkmate in 3 turns." you don't need to wait for the king to drop dead.
Now add to that the fact that many decks only play easy when you have your primary win condition, and that alternatives tend to be harder to achieve. Many of the current decks, such as big spell mage and Shudderwock Shaman are of that type: they run easy when you can mindlessly play to your final combo, but when things turn south you haven't lost but it's no longer easy.
This is where most people quit the game, run over here, then say "the game is 100% luck." They don't know how to make such a deck work when it's not running it's primary win condition, so they lose or quit instead of analyzing alternative routes and seeing if the game is actually unwinnable. When your entire gameplan is "prey for the God Mode or quit." then you really are just running a slot machine.
So yeah, it's a combination. Decks have a limited set of win conditions that you can destroy leaving them in an unwinnable situation. Also most people don't play at anything past a rudimentary level and to them there is no Plan B or alternative way to win.
A note: if you're not in the upper legend ranks, you're probably mostly facing the latter.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
What do you mean that THIS meta is filled with decks with win conditions ._. Every deck from every meta ever has and will have a win condition, it may not be a specific card but still. every deck has a win condition either a fatigue, or run the opponent out of resources or pure pressure with a bunch of minions. To answer your question it's cause if your deck is based around a card or a certain combo and you either can't win or you would need a miracle to win after you lose that card then what's the point of playing the game if you have a huge chance of still losing, I can just concede and use that time to look for another game and play that, a game that I can win and don't have to pray I get lucky af or my opponent fucks up.