I have a legit question, I don't have too much sense in this whole thing so I just want to get a real answer.
I have understood based on other threads that when a player auto-concedes gazillion times in a row, they will be matched against the entry level players with close to zero collections. Is this just a false statement or true? :O
Like if that claim is true, then it is 100% fact that some kind of rigging is done. After that it is just a question of how much. So please, I'd like to hear some opinions on my question, thanks :)
Up!
This is an important question, and I want answers god dammit! :P
So i was super curious, and tried to replicate the experiment. I aim to find if this is really an algorithm used and not just meta shifting, so i played one game with a paladin deck, secrets and call to arms, without defias(both spell breakers), and another one taking out one juggler and putting defias in. What i mean to say is that i alternate the decks after each game so its the same exact meta. this was over 40 games , took me an hour.
PUTTING DEFIAS IN, REDUCED THE CHANCE OF GETTING WARLOCK BY OVER 25%!!!
That being said i found 4 warlock using deathrattely mechanics(not necesarrily cubes, but the signs were there, control type of decks), when i played the original deck. And only 3 after putting in defias. And in such manner i lost one hour of my life. Do i love blizz? Sometimes. Do i wish i had found a groundbreaking conspiracy? YOU BET! REGRET doing it? 100%!
Arguing its a small sample its of no relevance in an algotrythm that would trully do that. As a customer you want results in less than an hour, you cannot possibly get the incentive to get better ”GUNS” if you do not feel the effect imediately.
ZIP. file, printscreens , Around 100 pictures, showcasing the decks, selfexplanatory moments from the games. Can those be forged? Absolutely! Did i do it? No! or maybe i did...HOTEL?
Activision already have a patent for such a matchmaking system I don't see a reason why they would not use it in such a game like heartstone. because no matter what, you cannot provide certain evidence to rigged rng without the data you get from Blizzard. also there is no legal penalty for using such tricks, It would only decrease their reputation so that kind of risk easily can be taken in order to generate more money and to provide more challenging ranking system.
They do not have such a patent or at least no one produced a link. The patent that was linked aims at rpgs or shooters. And it is full of amateur psychology that may not even have the intended effect. The mere existence of a patent doesn't prove anything. And I know what I am talking about.
@ topic: The main issue is that people always think of themselves as the centre of the universe. So blizzard rigs the system in the described way and gifts wins to all those warlocks (or protects them from a worse matchup)? But that means that all your opponents got a better matchup. So is blizzard hunting you personally?
Nah, as already pointed out, the small numbers and confirmation bias is a much more likely reason for the results.
I would honestly like to believe and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt but if you could recreate the experiment using deck tracker then you could post it to reddit as well! :)
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the title says it all. it's a mathemathical proof, not pictures proof.. so yeah..
You clearly don't know a thing about mathematics and how mathematical proof actually looks like. OP's "proof" is the same as saying: The earth is definitely flat because when I looked towards horizon 20 times it looked flat in 100% of times.
I have a legit question, I don't have too much sense in this whole thing so I just want to get a real answer.
I have understood based on other threads that when a player auto-concedes gazillion times in a row, they will be matched against the entry level players with close to zero collections. Is this just a false statement or true? :O
Like if that claim is true, then it is 100% fact that some kind of rigging is done. After that it is just a question of how much. So please, I'd like to hear some opinions on my question, thanks :)
Up!
This is an important question, and I want answers god dammit! :P
It's true, known fact and already abused. Try google "portrait farming hearthstone". Will say that again: It's nto rigged, it's how it works as a matching algorithm. As an algorithm it folows rules and one rule can be if you conceded or lost many times to match you with players who are losing many times like new people with poor collection.
Can we stop for a while and check my findings, as i spent an hour,replicating the experiment, i deserve recognition.
Make me the center of attention , damn it!
i also provide proof, so yeah,
SCIENCE *itch!
Have my attention.
You have not provided proof. Only data. Even if a 100 people had your exact experience it wouldn't prove anything other than confirmation bias.
Do it 1.000.000 times and you will see a pattern you can trust. 100 is not enough. 1 hour is not enough. There are many millions of players in the Hearthstone world and oddities will happen every minute everywhere on the servers.
I'd love some proof to, but just to make a point, let's assume you're right and your idea holds weight.
I have the following questions;
What is your hypothesis? Would it be correct to say that it is: "Hearthstone has a matchmaking system that tries to lower the chance that decks including specific tech-cards matches up against the decks that they are intended to counter."?
If so, what would you say motivates them to arrange such a system? I argue that it would just lower the incentive to craft tech cards if it's not working out. You may say it's because they want the expensive tier 1 decks to be mandatory to craft, but I'd maintain that people would still craft these decks as long as they're posted on Hearthpwn, reddit or twitter or whatever. Wouldn't blizzard make more money on tech cards actually working? That way the meta changes more and people will need to try out more decks. Blizzard has nothing to win on a stale meta as people would only build one or two decks.
My second point is the risk involved from such a move from Blizzard. It's pretty easy to test using a quantitative method as you did. Requires fairly low effort, especially if many are doing it. Even more considering various meta reports and third party stat trackers. If Blizzard would be found out that they're rigging the ladder, that would be HUGE and may just destroy a huge part of the community, especially the competitive scene (which I would say is what keep Hearthstone alive). It seems like a huge risk for a low benefit and I see this being sort of a defeater for any conspiracy theory. It just makes no sense, at least for me. But someone can provide more proof and data about this, on a much larger scale as well, then I'd definitely be willing to trust that data and wonder if there's something weird going on from Blizzards side.
Also, data like that wouldn't necessarily conclude that Blizzard made this intentionally, we'd need more proof for that. It might as well originate from an unintentional glitch in the game, or whatever.
i can say what motivates Blizzard to arrange A System like that. If meta is stable and you can climb ladder with any cards or any decks you dont need any New cards to change meta anymore. Because it is stable and every deck is equal. Also you will know that the first deck you have created can climb ladder even after 2 years and you motivate yourself like " ı really dont need New cards to climb so i can spend my money for more challenging stuff ". After that only fun players spend money for try New cards. Competitive players will keep climbing ladder with older decks. Guess what? Blizzard's main money source is competitive players, not fun players. So it seems fair for A company which gains money from these.
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Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players. ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
The effort of running such a cheating system would be immense. There’s just no way .
This.
Blizzard gets hammered for deploying the new ladder update and it being flawed, an update that based on the assessment of all the experts in IT on this forum should have been child's play. Yet at the same time we're meant to believe that they can maintain some complex piece of matchmaking fixing software updated every release without ever being found out.
Also, companies take out patents all the time that they never use, and given that patent registration is a fairly open process then putting your nefarious plan on their for all to see is pretty ridiculous. The fact it exists means nothing other than someone had an idea and they recorded it to stop anyone else using it. Does that mean they wouldn't use it, no it doesn't but it's also not evidence that they are.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
I don’t understand why people are so defensive about this. He provides good points, and people just lose it. Loaded matchmaking happens...it’s ok. It’s the easiest way to balance the game. I don’t know a seasoned player who believes matchmaking is completely random.
I'd love some proof to, but just to make a point, let's assume you're right and your idea holds weight.
I have the following questions;
What is your hypothesis? Would it be correct to say that it is: "Hearthstone has a matchmaking system that tries to lower the chance that decks including specific tech-cards matches up against the decks that they are intended to counter."?
If so, what would you say motivates them to arrange such a system? I argue that it would just lower the incentive to craft tech cards if it's not working out. You may say it's because they want the expensive tier 1 decks to be mandatory to craft, but I'd maintain that people would still craft these decks as long as they're posted on Hearthpwn, reddit or twitter or whatever. Wouldn't blizzard make more money on tech cards actually working? That way the meta changes more and people will need to try out more decks. Blizzard has nothing to win on a stale meta as people would only build one or two decks.
My second point is the risk involved from such a move from Blizzard. It's pretty easy to test using a quantitative method as you did. Requires fairly low effort, especially if many are doing it. Even more considering various meta reports and third party stat trackers. If Blizzard would be found out that they're rigging the ladder, that would be HUGE and may just destroy a huge part of the community, especially the competitive scene (which I would say is what keep Hearthstone alive). It seems like a huge risk for a low benefit and I see this being sort of a defeater for any conspiracy theory. It just makes no sense, at least for me. But someone can provide more proof and data about this, on a much larger scale as well, then I'd definitely be willing to trust that data and wonder if there's something weird going on from Blizzards side.
Also, data like that wouldn't necessarily conclude that Blizzard made this intentionally, we'd need more proof for that. It might as well originate from an unintentional glitch in the game, or whatever.
i can say what motivates Blizzard to arrange A System like that. If meta is stable and you can climb ladder with any cards or any decks you dont need any New cards to change meta anymore. Because it is stable and every deck is equal. Also you will know that the first deck you have created can climb ladder even after 2 years and you motivate yourself like " ı really dont need New cards to climb so i can spend my money for more challenging stuff ". After that only fun players spend money for try New cards. Competitive players will keep climbing ladder with older decks. Guess what? Blizzard's main money source is competitive players, not fun players. So it seems fair for A company which gains money from these.
To make players buy new expansion is pretty simply done by rotation (in wild you actually can climb with your old collection) and powercreep. No reason to spend manhours (and thus money) on a rigging system as implied by the OP. Besides, such a system would need constant maintenance and blizzard even can not keep DK Rexxar up to date...
The effort of running such a cheating system would be immense. There’s just no way .
This.
Blizzard gets hammered for deploying the new ladder update and it being flawed, an update that based on the assessment of all the experts in IT on this forum should have been child's play. Yet at the same time we're meant to believe that they can maintain some complex piece of matchmaking fixing software updated every release without ever being found out.
Do you honestly think it’s that hard to create code that recognizes tech cards and mana cost? They already tamper with arena draw and matchmaking, yet the standard ladder is such a stretch.
Becouse its not ... People strugle to simulate truly random numbers in programing and they still can't. Thats why they call them "pseudorandom numbers". Then in topic like this people appear who think all matchmaking system is random ..
Becouse its not ... People strugle to simulate truly random numbers in programing and they still can't. Thats why they call them "pseudorandom numbers". Then in topic like this people appear who think all matchmaking system is random ..
What is the definition of random anyway? It is not random the way that:
-Your opponent que up for a game around the same time as you do.
-Your opponent has a close rank (or MMR for legend) to you, but the longer the search, the wider the difference between you can be.
-Different players que up a game at different times of the day, and the meta varies some times on an hourly basis.
-If you are a new player, you will only be matched vs other new players until you have 2 legendaries (actully rigged, not a secret.)
You guys act like there is this pool of 1000s of potential games at any rank any minute. There is not, and rigging the matchmaking to take certain matchups and tech cards into account makes absolutely no sense.
Intentionally rigging it to create staleness and aim for 50% win rates will just slow the meta down, leading to people playing the same decks and not buying packs
I agree, but what if you rig certain match-ups only. If players buy packs to create a strong meta deck (cubelock for example) and they get crushed by people like OP (teching against an expensive deck), this will demotivate these players to buy packs in the future and create meta decks thus it very well makes sense to rig it in favor of those who spend the money.
If more people test the exact same scenario as OP did, we would know for certain.
@SlydE I feel like you didnt understand me (maybe i didnt understand you). Im saying the system is not random becouse it can't be. Not becouse blizz is rigging it. In my other post in this thread I explained this more, that match making system is an algorithm and follows rules and thus you can have observation like thread author.
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So i was super curious, and tried to replicate the experiment. I aim to find if this is really an algorithm used and not just meta shifting, so i played one game with a paladin deck, secrets and call to arms, without defias(both spell breakers), and another one taking out one juggler and putting defias in. What i mean to say is that i alternate the decks after each game so its the same exact meta. this was over 40 games , took me an hour.
PUTTING DEFIAS IN, REDUCED THE CHANCE OF GETTING WARLOCK BY OVER 25%!!!
That being said i found 4 warlock using deathrattely mechanics(not necesarrily cubes, but the signs were there, control type of decks), when i played the original deck. And only 3 after putting in defias. And in such manner i lost one hour of my life. Do i love blizz? Sometimes. Do i wish i had found a groundbreaking conspiracy? YOU BET! REGRET doing it? 100%!
Arguing its a small sample its of no relevance in an algotrythm that would trully do that. As a customer you want results in less than an hour, you cannot possibly get the incentive to get better ”GUNS” if you do not feel the effect imediately.
also PROOF :
https://files.fm/u/jtmnunqc#_
ZIP. file, printscreens , Around 100 pictures, showcasing the decks, selfexplanatory moments from the games. Can those be forged? Absolutely! Did i do it? No! or maybe i did...HOTEL?
TRIVAGO!
I would honestly like to believe and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt but if you could recreate the experiment using deck tracker then you could post it to reddit as well! :)
Can we stop for a while and check my findings, as i spent an hour,replicating the experiment, i deserve recognition.
Make me the center of attention , damn it!
i also provide proof, so yeah,
SCIENCE *itch!
Why the fuck would you even want to use defias Cleaner? Spellbreaker is way more flexible.
Also, there is absolutely no benefit to this "algorithm" other than to frustrate players.
My question to you is, what kind of tinfoil do you recommend and how do the lizard people fit into all of this?
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
I am playing Kingsbane rogue right now this is 5th time I am facing a jade druid lol I am sure that there is other deck archetypes to at rank 5
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players.
ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
I don’t understand why people are so defensive about this. He provides good points, and people just lose it. Loaded matchmaking happens...it’s ok. It’s the easiest way to balance the game. I don’t know a seasoned player who believes matchmaking is completely random.
Becouse its not ... People strugle to simulate truly random numbers in programing and they still can't. Thats why they call them "pseudorandom numbers". Then in topic like this people appear who think all matchmaking system is random ..
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
@SlydE I feel like you didnt understand me (maybe i didnt understand you). Im saying the system is not random becouse it can't be. Not becouse blizz is rigging it. In my other post in this thread I explained this more, that match making system is an algorithm and follows rules and thus you can have observation like thread author.