Both Standard and Wild are so full of tryhards with netdecks. This game is getting lame with every expansion.
Where has the fun been into trying new cards and combos out? This game is sooooooooo boring and stale that way.
Really sick of you, there was a thread like "Why do you bring your pirate decks to casual" So do you think that everybody wants to play against your greedy -so-callded fun- deck, huh?
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"Sit and come relax, riddle off the mac. It's the patch."
OP is right though. There's NOTHING competitive or original or interesting with everyone playing the same decks. Creating decks used to be a major part of the game, now it's hit the deck section, copy whatever is hot, and be as bland and soulless as every other try hard. This game isn't much fun lately.
The problem is, many people don't have the cards or dust required to build such fun or less seen decks, so they stick to what is tested and guaranteed to work (netdecking is the worst thing about HS, it's the reason 30% of ones opponents play the same aggro shaman decklist :/). For example, if people see a Hunter deck that uses Knuckles, and it's creator beats them at rank 5 or whatever, they're still not gonna craft that card just to see if it's any good.
I have a good collection so I do stuff like that (I crafted Gazlowe for example xD), but not when I have other priority cards to craft...
I really don't think that dust is a problem for the majority of players. The deck I hit rank 5 with runs one legendary (from Kara) and two epics. And both of those epics I've considered to be on the chopping block if I find something better. There are plenty of decks that don't rely on fringe cards to do well, people just don't want to play them because they're not considered to be the very best. As for your point about Knuckles, maybe they wouldn't craft him but that's more due to the nature of Knuckles as a card than anything else. I crafted Prophet Velen based on crazy decks I saw. Same with Embrace the Shadow, Malygos (back before Naxx), Sky Cap'n Kragg, and more. I even crafted a second Blade of C'Thun and Shadowcaster because of the fun I was having with C'Thun rogue decks. If people could see unique and interesting cards (I don't find Knuckles particularly interesting or unique) in action, they might be more willing to spend their dust elsewhere. Next to every deck I come across on the ladder has all the required epics and legendaries so people certainly aren't lacking in dust.
2. Top decks are top decks for a reason and that reason is that they are efficent. Even after nerfs previous top decks are going to be efficent enough on the ladder and that's why you see them in the first place. The ladder is a place to be competitive and that means that people WILL go for the best available options to them... and that means true and tested decks. Simple as that really - its not about deckbuilding.
There's two types of people: people who play the most efficent decks and the people who tries to beat the most efficent decks on ladder. Everyone else are going to be sitting comfortable at whatever rank they end up at with their own creations. I have no interest pushing for legend so I make these decks that are fun but not as efficent but still trying to beat these more efficent decks. Other people treat the ladder the same way but only start going for these experimental decks in order to become the folks who beat the most efficent decks at legend and so on. It is a competitive format first and foremost and thus' the idea of 'learning anything from deckbuilding' is... its important no doubt but it is also irrelevant for most people as it is something that folks simply don't care about.
3. No. Not a lot of people think that way.
For this I will simply reference the article on Timmy, Johnny and Spike that I keep referencing to so often. A lot of people exist and a lot of different types of players exist but... no matter where you fall into these categories there's ONE thing that people do: people play the game to have fun. If you don't have fun, you don't play the game.
Assuming its more 'effort' to play the game the way you like is nothing other than pretentious and immature so you are right on that one. But not everyone cares about that and certainly not everyone or even 'many' people are going to fall into the category of 'I want to make the new and upcoming rank 1 legend deck' on ladder. The people who do that are the folks who realize why the 'True and Tested'-types of decks are good and build either around their strengths or their weaknesses.
To this date I will continue to state that the best deck ever created in Hearthstone is Tom_HS Aggro Freeze Mage deck.
It is important to learn about deckbuilding in cardgames but only as far as where the skill is applicable. When its not applicable is when you are on the ladder and facing other decks. You stated yourself that you BM other decks that YOU find to be BM because 'they didn't spend the same amount of effort as I did'; do you apply the same logic for how folks SHOULD have fun as well?
All in all... your point you want to get across ultimately fails because... well, it is important... but not on a RANKED ladder.
I didn't really get point 1 so I'll bypass that. For point 2, that's my point. People aren't even trying to be innovative. All they care about is what's going to get them the highest win rate. And I'll bet you that when these people tried out pirate warrior or renolock or jade druid for the first time, they liked the excitement of playing something new. Most people experience that. So my encouragement to people is to experiment more, and test out stuff instead of just going to TempoStorm. I get a lot of my enjoyment in this game by playing odd combos or surprising decks. And I'm fine playing against all of the top tier decks every once in awhile. It just gets so damn boring seeing the same stupid aggro shaman or dragon priest every time. Throw some excitement into the game. Give me some unpredictability. It's the same with board games. If the game always plays out the same way and things are predictable, it loses it's edge. Sure, not everyone feels this way, but don't those of us that are trying to be innovative have the right to express how we feel as well?
For point 3... How is it not more effort to be a deckbuilder and work out the kinks in your deck instead of just following whatever updates a deckbuilder posts? How is it not more effort to play against decks that have been played millions of times until nothing new can be done with them? Deckbuilding also is very applicable when you're on the ladder facing other decks... Deckbuilding is how we get more decks to counter what's currently in the meta. I just think that more than a few people should be doing it.
Knuckles was just an example...I've mentioned I crafted Gazlowe because I wanted to try out crazy mech decks, there are some other cards I crafted for fun too.
Dust IS a problem for majority of players imo, in a way that you have to dedicate a certain amount of it to crafting the necessary "best" cards, and you can't spend your dust on stuff that isn't really working on ladder...unless, of course, you already have the really good cards - that's why there is a thread called Legendary Crafting Guide on here, and it divides cards into tiers based on their strength, fun factor etc.
People have the necessary legendaries and epics because they invested 100% of their dust into those cards the community determined are the best, it doesn't mean they have enough dust to craft, say, The Boogeymonster if they wish to try to make it work.
I agreee that there are way too many netdecks. Even when a streamer makes an original list, the ladder floods with that deck. The strongest deck in Hearthstone could be hidden among that collection of cards and you could be the one to make it! That is exciting to me. I understand that everyone doesn't have a large collection though and can only make a couple decks. It is what it is. Just find something you enjoy playing and run with it against the meta. You will win sometimes and it will feel great. It is sad though that some of the best deck builders out there will never flex their muscles because they feel overshadowed by people like Kolento. These people are great players and they build well made decks, but you could be better. You just don't know it yet!
At the end of the day though. Some people are going to be leaders and others are always going to be followers.
Knuckles was just an example...I've mentioned I crafted Gazlowe because I wanted to try out crazy mech decks, there are some other cards I crafted for fun too.
Dust IS a problem for majority of players imo, in a way that you have to dedicate a certain amount of it to crafting the necessary "best" cards, and you can't spend your dust on stuff that isn't really working on ladder...unless, of course, you already have the really good cards - that's why there is a thread called Legendary Crafting Guide on here, and it divides cards into tiers based on their strength, fun factor etc.
People have the necessary legendaries and epics because they invested 100% of their dust into those cards the community determined are the best, it doesn't mean they have enough dust to craft, say, The Boogeymonster if they wish to try to make it work.
This is so true. There are tons of cards and decks I'd like to experiment with, but I just don't have the cards I need. Wanna play CW? Well, too bad, because you're gonna have to disenchant your entire collection and still end up a bit short. That's why I don't craft and test out a lot of stuff I want to craft and test out - because if it sucks, and it's not even as fun as I thought it would be, then I just wasted dust that could have been spent crafting tried-and-true good decks that could have been used to generate more dust and build my collection.
I've been playing ramp druid in wild and all I see is standard decks with no wild cards lol. Now I want to play N'Zoth Jade Reno Rogue but I'll just get destroyed by pirate warriors :(
What I find sad is that even in casual gaming, I feel like I know what the deck will be the minute I see the opposing hero - I'm always appalled at how many Pirate Warriors, Jade Druids, Dragon Priests I find there. And creativity? Please. Even the one-of Reno style decks seem to have reached a point where there's almost no variation, and that is some sad bullshit. 30 different cards and no one's trying to squeeze in a Tinkmaster just for giggles?
I hope they can rework the ranking system to reward some variety in deckplay and build, if only so I can actually wonder when I queue in - "what kind of priest might this be?" instead of "oh, it's a paladin, turn one buff turn two outfitter, zzzzzzz"
1. Larger chance of huge disparity between interests in a small group of people, where as a larger group of people will have more diverse interests. Now add the internet and you get the same equation multiplied by roughly 50 million Hearthstone players as opposed to you and your 2-4 friends that you bring home because you selectively choose to play with them.
2. The ladder's a place FOR effiency not discovery! If you want to bring the discovery, kudos to you and you might find a hidden gem no one else knows about... however, you are going to get pounded harder into the ground than the bowling ball from the Hydraulic Press Channel on YouTube. That's the entire point of ladder!
3. Compare a SINGLE programmer from let's say Starcraft to a professional Starcraft player. No one in their right mind would ever claim that the developer didn't put 'effort' into their job... and no one in their right mind would ever claim that someone who purely plays a game for 12+ hours a day wouldn't be putting in any 'effort'. Now here's the catch...
Neither you nor the average player puts in enough effort to even warrent such a comparison. So your point is 110% null, void and completely pointless and serve nothing other than to try to boost your own ego. Deckbuilding is a skill, but so is also actually playing the darn game - they aren't seperate skills either and are quite interchangable... but the point still remains that as much as Trump is not a bad player he's not good at building decks. However Kripparian is quite good at building decks at least budget versions of entirely new approaches to a class, after all his budget zoo warrior was very nice and I tested it extensively pre-MSG and it actually still kinda works after it... but he's not that good at constructed, certainly a hell'a'lot better at arena so deckbuilding and arena certainly have something in common but strangely enough... actually playing a constructed deck and deckbuilding... Those two aren't quite so much.
So step off yer' high horse before you hurt yer'self, there is effort to be more than to blindly believe that the only 'effort' that could be made would be in that of deckbuilding.
1. My buddy is the biggest netdecker around. No originality. Same with another one of my friends. When I play them, all I get to play against is netdecks anyway. With 50 million hearthstone players, you'd think more of them would strive for some creativity.
2. What a lovely perspective on the ladder. I think the ladder is whatever people make it out to be. Once I've hit rank 5, wins and losses aren't as important anymore, especially when using a different deck results in MAYBE a 5% difference in outcome. I refuse to believe that 90-95% of people are so driven by winning that they would prefer to netdeck all the time as opposed to playing a deck they came up with. I think people are stuck in the mindset that they have to netdeck though because so many people do it now and they think that's the only way they can compete. There's plenty of decks out there not on TempoStorm that can still give a good amount of wins.
3. I put in a hell of a lot more effort than someone who just netdecks their wins. I spend time coming up with a deck idea, testing it extensively with a losing win rate, refining it, writing a guide for it, swapping cards out that aren't working, asking others for feedback, and just outright playing against decks that are slightly better. I could (and have before) just hop on shaman and cruise my way to rank 5. But look at how many people are bitching about every single netdeck on here on a regular basis and how OP every single card is. You can either try to be part of alleviating that issue or join the problem by reinforcing the netdecks. Up to you.
Oh, and I'm not talking about someone who plays to legend. I'm not good enough or dedicated enough to playing to do that (although I am much more dedicated to experimenting/crafting decks). There's very little skill in playing a ton of the decks out there (mine aren't even necessarily skillful) up to rank 5. If you play a high win rate deck, you'll get there eventually if you know how to make a few plays.
another net deck troll rant threads. maybe rage after loses to net tier 1 deck. only newbie or inexperience player no idea what to include.
for example reno mage, i include reno, fireball, ice block and other 20 best card in deck. you said i retard, zero originality & copy cat?????everyone will include best card in deck. u ask me replace the card with trash card?? replace fireball in 4 drop slot with YETI to have creative??? if you casual player and play for loses, aka games only mind who care set then you can go for it.
experience player will change 2-3 card tech aggro and tech control ,
Despite the weirdness of the deck, it out-heals Pirates (most of the time), it rushed down Jades (most of the time) and it out-tempos other Reno decks (most of the time). But how much better can you do than (most of the time) in this meta?
Yes, it's a Reno deck with duplicates. No, it's not a troll deck. A short explanation can be found on the deck page. TL;DR: Reno works pretty much every single time.
Anyways, the point of showing this deck is to show that meta snapshots are not always correct. Anyfin Paladin is currently Tier 4, and Reno Paladin and Dragon Paladin don't even exist (according to TempoStorm). Decks that don't fit into any archetype aren't necessarily bad. They just haven't been discovered yet.
What I find sad is that even in casual gaming, I feel like I know what the deck will be the minute I see the opposing hero - I'm always appalled at how many Pirate Warriors, Jade Druids, Dragon Priests I find there. And creativity? Please. Even the one-of Reno style decks seem to have reached a point where there's almost no variation, and that is some sad bullshit. 30 different cards and no one's trying to squeeze in a Tinkmaster just for giggles?
I hope they can rework the ranking system to reward some variety in deckplay and build, if only so I can actually wonder when I queue in - "what kind of priest might this be?" instead of "oh, it's a paladin, turn one buff turn two outfitter, zzzzzzz"
And? Men, people want to win, they don't care about "creativity", and there is nothing wrong with that.
Not all the arquetipe can be good at the same time (it's imposible) and the game Will not become more interesting only because you decide to put a random card un your deck.
I agree with OP. The problem is exacerbated because of how long Blizzard lets cards and combos that need nerfing run before fixing their mistakes. Undertaker ruined a few seasons before Huntertaker was nerfed. Patches and buccaneer comes out, all of a sudden the ladder is flooded with pirate decks. Very efficient to play but also very boring to grind hour after hour and very boring to play against. Mysterious challenger was never fixed so secret Pally is still a problem in wild. Aggro Shaman has been a thing for far too long. Ladder is just the place where the currently broken decks bubble to the top of the ladder - used to think decks were piloted by the players, but these days I understand they are just ridden upward. All you can do is squelch at the start of the game, understand that rank indicates time spent playing top tier netdecks not skill, concede to or rope the broken decks you hate, and resolve to never give Blizzard any money.
Netdecks simply have a higher and more consistant winrate. Why bother making a deck of your own if you won't win as much? I guess that's the mentality, but I play my own stuff and don't care what happens
There is no fun mode in this game. The modes are: Standard, Wild, and Casual. In Casual you will find all the gold farmers playing the easiest decks to finish quests and some people that need a morale boost after having a shitty day. You should just play Reno, Mill, Freeze, CW decks in Casual. Make sure you take your time and make good decisions so you learn how to use each deck.
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Great art can never be created without great suffering.
It is a weakness in all card games like this. I never netdeck; but that's a bit of a lie since I am obviously influenced by what I read in the forums, what I learn from watching streamers, and what I deduce from the decks I'm playing against. And yes, I have never reached Legend but I reached Rank 2 once and Rank 4 twice. It would obviously be more efficient if I used already established decks but like you I don't enjoy the game as much when I don't win from a deck of my own design.
The best way to have fun games is to play against another friend but sadly, with the exception of one week a while back, you can't complete your quests doing that. And it doesn't affect your rank.
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Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
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"Sit and come relax, riddle off the mac. It's the patch."
OP is right though. There's NOTHING competitive or original or interesting with everyone playing the same decks. Creating decks used to be a major part of the game, now it's hit the deck section, copy whatever is hot, and be as bland and soulless as every other try hard. This game isn't much fun lately.
Knuckles was just an example...I've mentioned I crafted Gazlowe because I wanted to try out crazy mech decks, there are some other cards I crafted for fun too.
Dust IS a problem for majority of players imo, in a way that you have to dedicate a certain amount of it to crafting the necessary "best" cards, and you can't spend your dust on stuff that isn't really working on ladder...unless, of course, you already have the really good cards - that's why there is a thread called Legendary Crafting Guide on here, and it divides cards into tiers based on their strength, fun factor etc.
People have the necessary legendaries and epics because they invested 100% of their dust into those cards the community determined are the best, it doesn't mean they have enough dust to craft, say, The Boogeymonster if they wish to try to make it work.
You can't stop the signal.
I agreee that there are way too many netdecks. Even when a streamer makes an original list, the ladder floods with that deck. The strongest deck in Hearthstone could be hidden among that collection of cards and you could be the one to make it! That is exciting to me. I understand that everyone doesn't have a large collection though and can only make a couple decks. It is what it is. Just find something you enjoy playing and run with it against the meta. You will win sometimes and it will feel great. It is sad though that some of the best deck builders out there will never flex their muscles because they feel overshadowed by people like Kolento. These people are great players and they build well made decks, but you could be better. You just don't know it yet!
At the end of the day though. Some people are going to be leaders and others are always going to be followers.
Competition is the point of a competitive ladder. The "tryhard" complaint is nonsense in that context. Stick to casual, Johnny.
Why Rogue is my favourite class:
My submission for this week's card design competition.
I've been playing ramp druid in wild and all I see is standard decks with no wild cards lol. Now I want to play N'Zoth Jade Reno Rogue but I'll just get destroyed by pirate warriors :(
What I find sad is that even in casual gaming, I feel like I know what the deck will be the minute I see the opposing hero - I'm always appalled at how many Pirate Warriors, Jade Druids, Dragon Priests I find there. And creativity? Please. Even the one-of Reno style decks seem to have reached a point where there's almost no variation, and that is some sad bullshit. 30 different cards and no one's trying to squeeze in a Tinkmaster just for giggles?
I hope they can rework the ranking system to reward some variety in deckplay and build, if only so I can actually wonder when I queue in - "what kind of priest might this be?" instead of "oh, it's a paladin, turn one buff turn two outfitter, zzzzzzz"
another net deck troll rant threads. maybe rage after loses to net tier 1 deck. only newbie or inexperience player no idea what to include.
for example reno mage, i include reno, fireball, ice block and other 20 best card in deck. you said i retard, zero originality & copy cat?????everyone will include best card in deck. u ask me replace the card with trash card?? replace fireball in 4 drop slot with YETI to have creative??? if you casual player and play for loses, aka games only mind who care set then you can go for it.
experience player will change 2-3 card tech aggro and tech control ,
pointless threads and Really retard comment ever.
Stop complaining about netdecks and build to crush them. This is an original deck that I built when I opened Finja, the Flying Star:
Despite the weirdness of the deck, it out-heals Pirates (most of the time), it rushed down Jades (most of the time) and it out-tempos other Reno decks (most of the time). But how much better can you do than (most of the time) in this meta?
Yes, it's a Reno deck with duplicates. No, it's not a troll deck. A short explanation can be found on the deck page. TL;DR: Reno works pretty much every single time.
Anyways, the point of showing this deck is to show that meta snapshots are not always correct. Anyfin Paladin is currently Tier 4, and Reno Paladin and Dragon Paladin don't even exist (according to TempoStorm). Decks that don't fit into any archetype aren't necessarily bad. They just haven't been discovered yet.
Explosive Shot => Meteor
Power Word: Tentacles => Spikeridged Steed
I agree with OP. The problem is exacerbated because of how long Blizzard lets cards and combos that need nerfing run before fixing their mistakes. Undertaker ruined a few seasons before Huntertaker was nerfed. Patches and buccaneer comes out, all of a sudden the ladder is flooded with pirate decks. Very efficient to play but also very boring to grind hour after hour and very boring to play against. Mysterious challenger was never fixed so secret Pally is still a problem in wild. Aggro Shaman has been a thing for far too long. Ladder is just the place where the currently broken decks bubble to the top of the ladder - used to think decks were piloted by the players, but these days I understand they are just ridden upward. All you can do is squelch at the start of the game, understand that rank indicates time spent playing top tier netdecks not skill, concede to or rope the broken decks you hate, and resolve to never give Blizzard any money.
Netdecks simply have a higher and more consistant winrate. Why bother making a deck of your own if you won't win as much? I guess that's the mentality, but I play my own stuff and don't care what happens
Weapon Based Priest is all you need in life
Stops your challenges with a knife
It's a deck that everyone should play
You should make it, try it today.
Doesn't anyone just play for fun?
I must have played well over 1,000 games on ladder (based on the fact my Hunter deck has 400 or so wins, and I know my win rate is below 50 percent).
I like trying to work combos or get AnyFin to work or come up with a 10-damage deliver kodo.
I have fun, and if I decide to craft something, it might well be something like Hogger, just because I think he has a cool ability.
Silly thing to complain about. There's nothing you or anyone else can do to stop "netdecking". Moaning about it won't change a thing.
Also people would still easily discover the best decks even without sites like hearthpwn. It's not that hard, the best synergies are pretty obvious.
A lobby system would solve this problem.
it would also improve the social aspect of the game.
There is no fun mode in this game. The modes are: Standard, Wild, and Casual. In Casual you will find all the gold farmers playing the easiest decks to finish quests and some people that need a morale boost after having a shitty day. You should just play Reno, Mill, Freeze, CW decks in Casual. Make sure you take your time and make good decisions so you learn how to use each deck.
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
It is a weakness in all card games like this. I never netdeck; but that's a bit of a lie since I am obviously influenced by what I read in the forums, what I learn from watching streamers, and what I deduce from the decks I'm playing against. And yes, I have never reached Legend but I reached Rank 2 once and Rank 4 twice. It would obviously be more efficient if I used already established decks but like you I don't enjoy the game as much when I don't win from a deck of my own design.
The best way to have fun games is to play against another friend but sadly, with the exception of one week a while back, you can't complete your quests doing that. And it doesn't affect your rank.
Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.