Valeera at a lower cost would be the most broken thing ever. Rogue also has Vanish to abuse the 1 turn of invulnerability.
It is a CotW similar issue?
8 manas is meta broken but at 9 manas is unplayable?
The Rogue DK is not even close to unplayable at 9 mana so I don't see the comparison.
Ok, how many times you see the DK druid, priest and warlock be played and compare with how many times you see DK Valeera be played and after that we can talk about "not even close to unplayable" again.
Dont make a fool of you. Valeera didnt saw play because the most powerfull Rougedeck was a Tempodeck which dont rely on the Value Valeera offers. Its like arguing about Uther who dont see play in Murloc Pally or Malfurion in Token Druid.
The DKs are mostly Tools for controlish playstyle, so DKs are shining brighter in classes who has good Controldecks.
You said the reason because Valeera don't see play what is the definition of unplayable...
If Valeera only can play tempo a control DK will be unplayable, better make one costing less and doing less but help tempo decks than a control one costing 9 almost don't see any play.
I'm guessing it is to limit the immediate impact. Rogue has a lot of cheap damage spell and Valeera effectively doubles your ressources. Making it cost less could lead to some vvery uninteractive combos. As you said, you can't be killed (usually) for one turn, so if you had more mana available you could easily just pull off a two turn lethal, similar to what mages do with ice block.
Valeera at a lower cost would be the most broken thing ever. Rogue also has Vanish to abuse the 1 turn of invulnerability.
It is a CotW similar issue?
8 manas is meta broken but at 9 manas is unplayable?
The Rogue DK is not even close to unplayable at 9 mana so I don't see the comparison.
Ok, how many times you see the DK druid, priest and warlock be played and compare with how many times you see DK Valeera be played and after that we can talk about "not even close to unplayable" again.
Dont make a fool of you. Valeera didnt saw play because the most powerfull Rougedeck was a Tempodeck which dont rely on the Value Valeera offers. Its like arguing about Uther who dont see play in Murloc Pally or Malfurion in Token Druid.
The DKs are mostly Tools for controlish playstyle, so DKs are shining brighter in classes who has good Controldecks.
You said the reason because Valeera don't see play what is the definition of unplayable...
If Valeera only can play tempo a control DK will be unplayable, better make one costing less and doing less but help tempo decks than a control one costing 9 almost don't see any play.
That is the problem with your argument imo. The supporting evidence is that this card is fundamentally broken and there should have been a different one. You then use this evidence to argue in favor of making it one of the most stupidly overpowered cards in the game so it becomes playable in completely different arctypes than it belongs in. This is creating the disconnect here.
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It's not that hard: control wins aggro and loses to midrange. Combo should never be included in this equation. I'm a banana. Bananas don't speak English. Please, do correct any grammar mistakes I make, even the most minor and insignificant ones. GENERATION 40: The first time you see this, copy it into your signature on any forum and add 1 to the generation. This is a social experiment.
Dunno 'bout you, but I like playing Valeera in casual decks - jade, dane's factory, mill N'zoth.
Despite, that those decks are casual (except the last one), the possibilities I can do with the DK in those decks are insane. Imho the DK really rewards the player for making the right plays. She's not like Anduin, who kills a whole board without a sweat, nor like Gul'Dan, who can spawn you bunch of taunts and sustains you from that moment on, nor is she like Thrall, who just rolls the dices. With Valeera you really have to plan your future turns better. Sometimes you are obligated to play her, since you will profit more in the long run, sometimes this means risking tempo and setting up a VanishDoomsayer turn, sometimes you have to ignore the value and not play her at all, if this leads you to win the game faster. Because if I learned something from my match ups as and against rogues, that's that the correct timing is crucial for that class. Regarding the battlecry effect - YOU HAVE TO DECIDE when to hide yourself in the shadows - I remember a user's post, who stated, that with combo decks you stop interacting with the opponent's board and try to set up your win-condition. Yes, she is one of those DKs, who are hard to play, but that doesn't make her weak or "unplayable".
Back to my casual decks - do you know how OP my turns become at the moment after I get the Shadow Reflections going? Vilespine Slayers, Saps, heals (heal bots in wild), extra value from the Hallucinations; the jade cards; Gang Up, other removals, draws... And now we even got Sonya for more tricky set-ups, but with bigger pay-offs. The possibilities are endless and will get better with the next expansions.
Very rightly so, the card has been compared to Ice Block, but to criticize the card for its mana cost compared to Ice Block is bullcrap.
The card provides additionnal ressources (Eviscerate, Leeroy, Sap) to close out the game right after it's been used, and it cannot be hard-countered by a random Secret-Eater when the metagame shifts to counter it (so just like that it's not a 9-mana Ice Block, but rather a 9-mana uncounterable Ice Block that gives you potential additionnal burst, and still leaves you at 15/20 hp at the end of the process with a strong card-creation mechanic, if your opp isn't just dead by now); and most importantly : it's a Rogue card, not a Mage one !
While mages naturally get out-tempo in constructed and take extra turns with Ice Blocks to win with burn spells, Rogues are one of the classes that out-tempo people, but struggle with face decks or "combo" burst decks because they have no way to protect themselves when they want to go for the kill. That card fits that role very efficiently as long as you can fight up to your 9 manas.
As a hardcore rogue afficionado, I find it very well designed and respectful of the classes gamestyle and needs for a late game Rogue card.
Valeera at a lower cost would be the most broken thing ever. Rogue also has Vanish to abuse the 1 turn of invulnerability.
It is a CotW similar issue?
8 manas is meta broken but at 9 manas is unplayable?
The Rogue DK is not even close to unplayable at 9 mana so I don't see the comparison.
Ok, how many times you see the DK druid, priest and warlock be played and compare with how many times you see DK Valeera be played and after that we can talk about "not even close to unplayable" again.
Dont make a fool of you. Valeera didnt saw play because the most powerfull Rougedeck was a Tempodeck which dont rely on the Value Valeera offers. Its like arguing about Uther who dont see play in Murloc Pally or Malfurion in Token Druid.
The DKs are mostly Tools for controlish playstyle, so DKs are shining brighter in classes who has good Controldecks.
You said the reason because Valeera don't see play what is the definition of unplayable...
If Valeera only can play tempo a control DK will be unplayable, better make one costing less and doing less but help tempo decks than a control one costing 9 almost don't see any play.
Yeah but Valeera dont see play because she is so expensive, it is because the Archetype she provides the most use isnt in the best spot! So Valeera its not the Problem its the lack of cards that makes Ctrl-Rouge viable, saying that, ur argumentation is invalid.
Yeah they could have done another card that fits in a more tempoish archetype but thats antoher thing and wont change anything adaptin the cost of the existing DK to 8. (Im not even sure if she would had see play in Tempo Rouge, because Tempowise she wouldnt even be worth for 7 Manas)
In a Jade Rouge orMalygos Rouge she could shine. But as mentioned above there isnt enough Support for those Archetypes.
Valeera at a lower cost would be the most broken thing ever. Rogue also has Vanish to abuse the 1 turn of invulnerability.
It is a CotW similar issue?
8 manas is meta broken but at 9 manas is unplayable?
The Rogue DK is not even close to unplayable at 9 mana so I don't see the comparison.
Ok, how many times you see the DK druid, priest and warlock be played and compare with how many times you see DK Valeera be played and after that we can talk about "not even close to unplayable" again.
I guess if that's your qualifications for playable vs unplayable then Archmage Antonidas, Barnes, Voidlord, Draconid Operative, Carnivorous Cube, ect are all not even close to playable either because there are cards in the game that get played more.
Also, at 8 mana, it would totally limit design space for 1 mana cards for Rogue in the future. You can't be evaluating cards just in the current meta, but also future meta's and how the card might become overpowered if other cards were to be printed.
Valeera at a lower cost would be the most broken thing ever. Rogue also has Vanish to abuse the 1 turn of invulnerability.
It is a CotW similar issue?
8 manas is meta broken but at 9 manas is unplayable?
The Rogue DK is not even close to unplayable at 9 mana so I don't see the comparison.
Ok, how many times you see the DK druid, priest and warlock be played and compare with how many times you see DK Valeera be played and after that we can talk about "not even close to unplayable" again.
I guess if that's your qualifications for playable vs unplayable then Archmage Antonidas, Barnes, Voidlord, Draconid Operative, Carnivorous Cube, ect are all not even close to playable either because there are cards in the game that get played more.
Your examples are terrible, all cards in this list see much more play than Valeera DK.
Unplayable describe cards almost don't see play, and except maybe for the post nerf Mill Rogue Valeera DK don't see any play, Barnes, Archmage, Draconic see a lot of play in a lot of decks.
Valeera at a lower cost would be the most broken thing ever. Rogue also has Vanish to abuse the 1 turn of invulnerability.
It is a CotW similar issue?
8 manas is meta broken but at 9 manas is unplayable?
The Rogue DK is not even close to unplayable at 9 mana so I don't see the comparison.
Ok, how many times you see the DK druid, priest and warlock be played and compare with how many times you see DK Valeera be played and after that we can talk about "not even close to unplayable" again.
Dont make a fool of you. Valeera didnt saw play because the most powerfull Rougedeck was a Tempodeck which dont rely on the Value Valeera offers. Its like arguing about Uther who dont see play in Murloc Pally or Malfurion in Token Druid.
The DKs are mostly Tools for controlish playstyle, so DKs are shining brighter in classes who has good Controldecks.
You said the reason because Valeera don't see play what is the definition of unplayable...
If Valeera only can play tempo a control DK will be unplayable, better make one costing less and doing less but help tempo decks than a control one costing 9 almost don't see any play.
Yeah but Valeera dont see play because she is so expensive...
The card need only 1 mana reduction in your cost to see a lot more play and for 7 manas will be an auto-include in every rogue deck, then, yes, she is unplayable because her cost too much for the benefits.
Again, compare with priest and warlock and is clear the cost for her is wrong, or maybe she is right but is priest and warlock way too powerful.
Is it just me or is the Hunter and Rogue DKs 2 of the most powerful DKs out of all of them solely due to their value generating hero powers? If both of these get legitimate control support cards in future expansions, both of the DKs can potentially be very oppressive.
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
Unplayable describe cards almost don't see play, and except maybe for the post nerf Mill Rogue Valeera DK don't see any play, Barnes, Archmage, Draconic see a lot of play in a lot of decks.
"Unplayable" has nothing to do with how much a card is currently played. Where did you come up with that nonsense?
The card need only 1 mana reduction in your cost to see a lot more play and for 7 manas will be an auto-include in every rogue deck, then, yes, she is unplayable because her cost too much for the benefits.
That doesn't mean she is unplayable because of her cost. She currently sees play in decks where her ability is useful and she doesn't see play in decks where she isn't useful, therefore she is playable and the reason you don't see her in more decks is because her abilities do not match those other decks. A card can be playable even if the decks they are good in are not currently playable.
Actually i've played valeera in a ton of games and it feels just right at 9 mana. The hero power is absurd value and the stealth is actually unbelievably strong because with the other dk like jaina there are scenarios in which is awkward to play your hero, but you can always play valeera on curve
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I'm guessing it is to limit the immediate impact. Rogue has a lot of cheap damage spell and Valeera effectively doubles your ressources. Making it cost less could lead to some vvery uninteractive combos. As you said, you can't be killed (usually) for one turn, so if you had more mana available you could easily just pull off a two turn lethal, similar to what mages do with ice block.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
The mark of a badly designed card is one that is broken at a certain Mana cost, and total shit if it costs (1) more.
It's not that hard: control wins aggro and loses to midrange. Combo should never be included in this equation.
I'm a banana. Bananas don't speak English. Please, do correct any grammar mistakes I make, even the most minor and insignificant ones.
GENERATION 40: The first time you see this, copy it into your signature on any forum and add 1 to the generation. This is a social experiment.
I can say same Jana, wish sometimes I can hero power same turn played.
Dunno 'bout you, but I like playing Valeera in casual decks - jade, dane's factory, mill N'zoth.
Despite, that those decks are casual (except the last one), the possibilities I can do with the DK in those decks are insane. Imho the DK really rewards the player for making the right plays. She's not like Anduin, who kills a whole board without a sweat, nor like Gul'Dan, who can spawn you bunch of taunts and sustains you from that moment on, nor is she like Thrall, who just rolls the dices. With Valeera you really have to plan your future turns better. Sometimes you are obligated to play her, since you will profit more in the long run, sometimes this means risking tempo and setting up a Vanish Doomsayer turn, sometimes you have to ignore the value and not play her at all, if this leads you to win the game faster. Because if I learned something from my match ups as and against rogues, that's that the correct timing is crucial for that class. Regarding the battlecry effect - YOU HAVE TO DECIDE when to hide yourself in the shadows - I remember a user's post, who stated, that with combo decks you stop interacting with the opponent's board and try to set up your win-condition. Yes, she is one of those DKs, who are hard to play, but that doesn't make her weak or "unplayable".
Back to my casual decks - do you know how OP my turns become at the moment after I get the Shadow Reflections going? Vilespine Slayers, Saps, heals (heal bots in wild), extra value from the Hallucinations; the jade cards; Gang Up, other removals, draws... And now we even got Sonya for more tricky set-ups, but with bigger pay-offs. The possibilities are endless and will get better with the next expansions.
Valeera cost seems fine to me.
I'd raise Malf to 8 mana, and I'd like to raise Guldan to 11.
If someone doesn't mind, I would like to quote the post I was referring to.
Also, at 8 mana, it would totally limit design space for 1 mana cards for Rogue in the future. You can't be evaluating cards just in the current meta, but also future meta's and how the card might become overpowered if other cards were to be printed.
Is it just me or is the Hunter and Rogue DKs 2 of the most powerful DKs out of all of them solely due to their value generating hero powers? If both of these get legitimate control support cards in future expansions, both of the DKs can potentially be very oppressive.
Rank 25 OP LUL
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
My fav DK is Valeera the Hollow. It's super powerful
Actually i've played valeera in a ton of games and it feels just right at 9 mana. The hero power is absurd value and the stealth is actually unbelievably strong because with the other dk like jaina there are scenarios in which is awkward to play your hero, but you can always play valeera on curve