It seems like every expansion has a legendary that everyone thinks is broken and OP, but turns out to be garbage. The Marsh Queen in Ungoro, Uther of the Ebon Blade in KotFT (keep that card in mind, I'll circle back to it). At first I was excited about Kingsbane, but the more I think about it, the more I'm worried this this might be that card for K&C.
In a vacuum, it's pretty mediocre. 1 mana for 1/3 weapon wouldn't see much play. It's when we start throwing in the weapon buffs that it gets better. But I'm worried that all the extra support it will require will eat up too much valuable deck space. At minimum, well need:
That's at least 1/3 of our deck dedicated to building what will essentially be a cheaper version of Grave Vengeance. That is a lot of deck space. Paladin has one card - one single deck slot - that gives them the same thing...and that card doesn't see play.
I know the arguments are that this is reusable, but that depends heavily on finding it reliably and I don't think Cavern Shinyfinder is going to be enough. Also, you have to find it already buffed. It won't do you a lot of good if you find it with no buffs.
I've also heard people say that all the poisons and other support can be used with your hero power weapon and still be good, but I don't think that's true. If you have to use a Deadly Poison on your basic dagger, that means you'll never get your Kingsbane up to 5 attack.
And finally, even if I'm wrong about everything else, it's still a third of our deck dedicated to a way to smash out face into things. Even, it everything works out perfectly, I don't think it will win us the game. Especially when you think about the new Leyline Manipulator OTK Mage. It also dedicates 1/3 of its deck to one thing...but that one thing is infinite damage...not a cheaper Grave Vengeance.
hey man great post! sorry to bother you, but can you help with a problem? how do I start a new post or thread like you have? I need feddback on arena pick I'm making. thx a lot.
You are making some excellent arguments and while I am NOT going to give the card a verdict on the scale from Troggzor to Dr. Boom I will say that my guess is that Kingsbane will be used in Pirate builds.
At least for now. The coming expansion and rotation in early 2018 might shift everything.
You could be right OP. I think this card is going to have to buff an existing deck rather than create an entirely new one. Buffing it with existing pirates that already have synergy with Tempo Rogue might be the way to go rather than devoting so much of the deck to it. Both this and Uther are great cards, but they don't have great decks to go with them. The analogy makes sense to me.
That's exactly what I did! And I managed to avoid Pirates* completely. Check the link in my signature, I think you're gonna like it. ~80-90% deathrattle synergy as well. Personally, I removed Doomerang for Carnivorous Cube because he keeps your board a LOT more consistent in this deck. And yes, post-nerf Blade Flurry because with the buffs for your Kingsbane, it becomes a better Dragonfire Potion.
*Well, I avoided the package at least. I forgot about Squidface. But yeah, it's mostly deathrattle-oriented.
Well, the problem with Marsh Queen was that playing Quest turn 1 is jsut too much anti-tempo to really recover from if your opponent plays literally ANYTHING.
Kingsbane might be "overrated" in the sense that it might not be powerful enough to warrant building an entire deck around it..or if it worked, that the deck built around it is too awkward.
Realistically speaking, King's Bane is still a 1-mana Hero power with extra durability that never disappears completely. and can be improved over the course of the game (and has a synergy card that allows it to be pulled from the deck, making it more consistant).
To top it off it has a bunch of synergy cards that work REALLY well with it. Granted, there's no guarantee a deck centered primarily around this card is oging to be good enough, but think of this: Over the course of the game you could realistically develop an indestructible weapon that removes the possibility of dying to fatigue, has somewhere beetween 5-10 damage, lifesteal and poisonous, can be thrown at minions to remove them efficiently, while healing yourself and can also be used with Bladeflurry for pretty huge boardwipes.
It might not work guaranteed, but it could make a new type of miracle/control rogue possible that just aims to play removal and stall and then win the value game through stabbing opponents into submission.
Meanwhile Hunter Quest fails the moment you don't instantly draw a Raptor after playing Carnassa.
I have no doubt it will see some play, but whether that play is anything other than wild pirate decks is another question entirely. It might be popped in a mill rogue but I doubt it as mill is already right on card spots, and of course it is only really viable in wild. People say miracle, but I think miracle is tighter on cards and as you say, kingsbane needs support. I don’t find anything that redeems it in standard. it might be ok in a tier 3 deck, but I doubt anything else will touch it in standard.
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Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
I personally also think that Kingsbane is overrated. It is not a bad weapon, but to be overpowered, you need enough buffs. Otherwise it is a neat weapon, but far from gamewinning. I mean, a 1 mana 3/3 is really strong in the beginning of the game, later not so much any more. Pirates are a good option, but that is a tempo/aggro deck so it is unlikely to have much draw (inconsistent buffing and running out of steam) and the games do not last very long to squeeze the value out of the weapon (draw and re-equip a 1 mana OP weapon).
And for a control deck that plays long games, you can't really play too many pirates since they are not made for longer value games. And weapon buffs never were too great, also because each buff costs an extra card.
The comparison to Uther seems very fair, but wouldn't Uther be a really good card in a control Rogue? 20 health gained, and 15 damage worth of weapon? Hell yeah I would play that in Rogue, as Control Rogue lacks that sustain. Kingsbane provides just that, and although I don't feel like it will break the game, I think it will be a very good card in Rogue for that simple reason. If You can swinit face for 5, and heal 5, then for a non-aggressive Rogue that's really good, especially since against aggro it not only helps You stabilize, but also shrinks their HP very fast, and aggro has no way to deal with that. Once You pop off, they can just concede.
i think its gonna be good. 1 mana 1/3 weapon that can be buffed. do we remember how good spirit claws was pre nerf? i have a feeling its gonna be really good in wild where Tinker's Sharpsword Oil still exists and with a decent amount of card draw it can be very good in a midrange or miracle style deck
I didn't even realize that people were saying this card would be good. I have no doubt in my mind that it will be mediocre at best. The new 2-mana 3/1 is the only thing that makes it seem like it may be playable.
Honestly I think this card is just not strong enough to really work. Putting in bad cards into your deck hasn't worked in anything other than otk decks since they use those bad cards to win the game. This seems to slow, clunky and inconsistent to really work. Rogue doesn't last long game outside of grindy decks that are poorly built/played. And you won't be using this more than once in the early game. I will be surprised if this gets played in any serious deck based on what is coming out.
Attrition Control Rogue or a Mill Rogue with Valeera the Hollow generates infinite Kingsbanes. Play one, and then instantly destroy it with Valeera's Hero Power. Shuffle an extra into the deck.
Doing this once or twice is good enough to never take fatigue damage. Trying to think of what you can do after that... Hmm... Furnacefire Colossus? Either way, you'll have an X powered weapon with infinite durability and you'll never take Fatigue damage. So just time your control cards efficiently and the opponent won't be able to stop you.
DK also doubles any Deadly Poisons you picked up later on.
You are wrong about the fact that kingsbane needs all the weapon buffs, it really only needs double deadly poison and leeching poison. You don't run pirate buffs or envenom. I'm wondering if blade flurry will be good with a a kingsbane deck
i think its gonna be good. 1 mana 1/3 weapon that can be buffed. do we remember how good spirit claws was pre nerf? i have a feeling its gonna be really good in wild where Tinker's Sharpsword Oil still exists and with a decent amount of card draw it can be very good in a midrange or miracle style deck
The thing is that at that time we had three staple spell damage minions in the deck and the hero power gives you a 25% chance to get the buff (better with totems on board). All these minions you would have included in your deck anyway ( Azure Drake and Bloodmage Thalnos are just good minions in Shaman). And the same is true for the hero power ( Thing from Below ). So you did not really dilute your deck to get value from Spirit Claws and you always had the chance for 2 mana (no card) to get the buff anyway.
Here you run buffs in your deck you would not if it werent for the weapon. Whether that is worth it, we will see.
Wild may be a different thing, since oil is a better buff.
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It seems like every expansion has a legendary that everyone thinks is broken and OP, but turns out to be garbage. The Marsh Queen in Ungoro, Uther of the Ebon Blade in KotFT (keep that card in mind, I'll circle back to it). At first I was excited about Kingsbane, but the more I think about it, the more I'm worried this this might be that card for K&C.
In a vacuum, it's pretty mediocre. 1 mana for 1/3 weapon wouldn't see much play. It's when we start throwing in the weapon buffs that it gets better. But I'm worried that all the extra support it will require will eat up too much valuable deck space. At minimum, well need:
That's at least 1/3 of our deck dedicated to building what will essentially be a cheaper version of Grave Vengeance. That is a lot of deck space. Paladin has one card - one single deck slot - that gives them the same thing...and that card doesn't see play.
I know the arguments are that this is reusable, but that depends heavily on finding it reliably and I don't think Cavern Shinyfinder is going to be enough. Also, you have to find it already buffed. It won't do you a lot of good if you find it with no buffs.
I've also heard people say that all the poisons and other support can be used with your hero power weapon and still be good, but I don't think that's true. If you have to use a Deadly Poison on your basic dagger, that means you'll never get your Kingsbane up to 5 attack.
And finally, even if I'm wrong about everything else, it's still a third of our deck dedicated to a way to smash out face into things. Even, it everything works out perfectly, I don't think it will win us the game. Especially when you think about the new Leyline Manipulator OTK Mage. It also dedicates 1/3 of its deck to one thing...but that one thing is infinite damage...not a cheaper Grave Vengeance.
hey man great post! sorry to bother you, but can you help with a problem? how do I start a new post or thread like you have? I need feddback on arena pick I'm making. thx a lot.
You are making some excellent arguments and while I am NOT going to give the card a verdict on the scale from Troggzor to Dr. Boom I will say that my guess is that Kingsbane will be used in Pirate builds.
At least for now. The coming expansion and rotation in early 2018 might shift everything.
I would argue that Doomerang is too weak and that you'd only run 1 x Envenom Weapon and 1 x Leeching Poison, which in total frees up 4 deck slots.
I'm not saying that it's a great card, though :)
You could be right OP. I think this card is going to have to buff an existing deck rather than create an entirely new one. Buffing it with existing pirates that already have synergy with Tempo Rogue might be the way to go rather than devoting so much of the deck to it. Both this and Uther are great cards, but they don't have great decks to go with them. The analogy makes sense to me.
Judging by community reaction, I would wager that 95% of the new legendaries and epics in the set are Marsh Queens/Traggzors
completely. Check the link in my signature, I think you're gonna like it. ~80-90% deathrattle synergy as well. Personally, I removed Doomerang for Carnivorous Cube because he keeps your board a LOT more consistent in this deck. And yes, post-nerf Blade Flurry because with the buffs for your Kingsbane, it becomes a better Dragonfire Potion.I see your point, but to be fair, you don't need a few of the cards listed. You only need one copy of Leeching Poison or Envenom Weapon, Doomerang and Captain Greenskin aren't necessary.
I don't get the feeling anyone is thinking Kingsbane is meta good, they're just excited cause it looks fresh and fun.
Although I see your point with the other example cards.
Well, the problem with Marsh Queen was that playing Quest turn 1 is jsut too much anti-tempo to really recover from if your opponent plays literally ANYTHING.
Kingsbane might be "overrated" in the sense that it might not be powerful enough to warrant building an entire deck around it..or if it worked, that the deck built around it is too awkward.
Realistically speaking, King's Bane is still a 1-mana Hero power with extra durability that never disappears completely. and can be improved over the course of the game (and has a synergy card that allows it to be pulled from the deck, making it more consistant).
To top it off it has a bunch of synergy cards that work REALLY well with it. Granted, there's no guarantee a deck centered primarily around this card is oging to be good enough, but think of this: Over the course of the game you could realistically develop an indestructible weapon that removes the possibility of dying to fatigue, has somewhere beetween 5-10 damage, lifesteal and poisonous, can be thrown at minions to remove them efficiently, while healing yourself and can also be used with Bladeflurry for pretty huge boardwipes.
It might not work guaranteed, but it could make a new type of miracle/control rogue possible that just aims to play removal and stall and then win the value game through stabbing opponents into submission.
Meanwhile Hunter Quest fails the moment you don't instantly draw a Raptor after playing Carnassa.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
I have no doubt it will see some play, but whether that play is anything other than wild pirate decks is another question entirely. It might be popped in a mill rogue but I doubt it as mill is already right on card spots, and of course it is only really viable in wild. People say miracle, but I think miracle is tighter on cards and as you say, kingsbane needs support. I don’t find anything that redeems it in standard. it might be ok in a tier 3 deck, but I doubt anything else will touch it in standard.
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
I personally also think that Kingsbane is overrated. It is not a bad weapon, but to be overpowered, you need enough buffs. Otherwise it is a neat weapon, but far from gamewinning. I mean, a 1 mana 3/3 is really strong in the beginning of the game, later not so much any more. Pirates are a good option, but that is a tempo/aggro deck so it is unlikely to have much draw (inconsistent buffing and running out of steam) and the games do not last very long to squeeze the value out of the weapon (draw and re-equip a 1 mana OP weapon).
And for a control deck that plays long games, you can't really play too many pirates since they are not made for longer value games. And weapon buffs never were too great, also because each buff costs an extra card.
But of course I might be completely wrong.
The comparison to Uther seems very fair, but wouldn't Uther be a really good card in a control Rogue? 20 health gained, and 15 damage worth of weapon? Hell yeah I would play that in Rogue, as Control Rogue lacks that sustain. Kingsbane provides just that, and although I don't feel like it will break the game, I think it will be a very good card in Rogue for that simple reason. If You can swinit face for 5, and heal 5, then for a non-aggressive Rogue that's really good, especially since against aggro it not only helps You stabilize, but also shrinks their HP very fast, and aggro has no way to deal with that. Once You pop off, they can just concede.
i think its gonna be good. 1 mana 1/3 weapon that can be buffed. do we remember how good spirit claws was pre nerf? i have a feeling its gonna be really good in wild where Tinker's Sharpsword Oil still exists and with a decent amount of card draw it can be very good in a midrange or miracle style deck
I didn't even realize that people were saying this card would be good. I have no doubt in my mind that it will be mediocre at best. The new 2-mana 3/1 is the only thing that makes it seem like it may be playable.
Honestly I think this card is just not strong enough to really work. Putting in bad cards into your deck hasn't worked in anything other than otk decks since they use those bad cards to win the game. This seems to slow, clunky and inconsistent to really work. Rogue doesn't last long game outside of grindy decks that are poorly built/played. And you won't be using this more than once in the early game. I will be surprised if this gets played in any serious deck based on what is coming out.
Attrition Control Rogue or a Mill Rogue with Valeera the Hollow generates infinite Kingsbanes. Play one, and then instantly destroy it with Valeera's Hero Power. Shuffle an extra into the deck.
Doing this once or twice is good enough to never take fatigue damage. Trying to think of what you can do after that... Hmm... Furnacefire Colossus? Either way, you'll have an X powered weapon with infinite durability and you'll never take Fatigue damage. So just time your control cards efficiently and the opponent won't be able to stop you.
DK also doubles any Deadly Poisons you picked up later on.
The Roshambo to Hearthstone. Please be nice. Don't insult or be mad at someone for throwing Rock.
You are wrong about the fact that kingsbane needs all the weapon buffs, it really only needs double deadly poison and leeching poison. You don't run pirate buffs or envenom. I'm wondering if blade flurry will be good with a a kingsbane deck