Let's be fair, who played the Miscreant for his 1-5 stats? Certainly not me. I for one had a pit in my stomach when I saw his nerf because I thought we only get one lackey now. I couldn't care less about the HP nerf.
Raiding Party nerf? This card is the definition of consistency and value. A nerf was expected from my side.
Now, the elephant in the room. Preparation. This was mostly a "sad" nerf for me because this card is what made Rogue.. Rogue. But definitely not "omg the class is destroyed wtf blizord".
The good Rogue's will still be found dominating and winning, rather than all the plebs who learned to Prep+Raiding Party and high-roll spells from the Hench-clan Burgler and win the game.
Amen. Props to you for not whining like most of the other Rogue players.
Those nerfs (especially the last two you listed) have hit Rogue really hard, but they were kinda inevitable: just because players like a card, it doesn't mean it's perfect and won't be touched in the future.
To be fair, I know a decent number of Rogue players that are happy with the Preparation nerf because from now on the class won't get overcosted spells anymore.
And why do these short thoughts need their own thread rather than a post in one of the already existing ones?
Amen to that. Why do people feel the need to share all their feelings on here. Tons of threads on the nerfs. Add to those discussions. No one is a special snowflake.
And why do these short thoughts need their own thread rather than a post in one of the already existing ones?
Amen to that. Why do people feel the need to share all their feelings on here. Tons of threads on the nerfs. Add to those discussions. No one is a special snowflake.
False - I am a special snowflake, my mom told me so. Besides, unlike some boards, this one has no 'search before you post' rule so it comes with the territory to have duplicate threads. It makes sense too because discussions about nerfs announced for rouge are no longer relevant after the buff announcement.
The prep nerf was not needed, and dealt a near-fatal blow to the class in this meta. The raiding party hurts, but it's not insurmountable. The miscreant nerf is whatever.
Rogue spells have been designed for years with preparation in mind. Now, with that one change, the entirety of the classes' build structure has been damaged. It was one step too far, and Blizzard did a disservice to the community with it.
The prep nerf was not needed, and dealt a near-fatal blow to the class in this meta. The raiding party hurts, but it's not insurmountable. The miscreant nerf is whatever.
Rogue spells have been designed for years with preparation in mind. Now, with that one change, the entirety of the classes' build structure has been damaged. It was one step too far, and Blizzard did a disservice to the community with it.
But the tea leaves have been saying for quite some time that the devs now realize that mana generators are destructive to the game. Look at poor Druid.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
To be fair, I know a decent number of Rogue players that are happy with the Preparation nerf because from now on the class won't get overcosted spells anymore.
My hope for the class, for me Preparation always be a curse for the class, you be forced expansion after expansion to use only the excelent classic set and ignore all released classic cards because was overcosted by presence of Preparation.
Raiding Party was an exception who prove the rule, unnerfed Preparation make any good 3 manas spell broken, no class can outempo something like that.
Better later than never, I really wanted this nerf be done when the horrible designed quest rogue deck was around...
And in general I think iconic cards should remain the way they are.
How about we make fireball 5 mana next because why not right ?
No I am not a salty rogue player. I actually play resurrect priest and this change is theoretically beneficial for the deck I currently play since rugue got me the most looses but I still dislike it.
IMO Ever Green format should really mean ever green. I know we get dust back but that's not the point. I feel like they are always pushing us to play new cards instead of the ones that we already have and love.
I feel that T5 acts inconsistently between the classes.
They say they always had to keep in mind rogue spells due to Prep and that it stifled design.
However, when you look at other classes having powerful tools that already existed for a different class it did not prevent T5 from giving them more strong tools for that same class (An absolutely perfect example was when warlocks got Godfrey when they already very recently had Defile. Having Defile in the class toolkit should have been design limiting for the class to not get Godfrey in the same standard meta. Yep, no chance). Another example was giving priest Mass Hysteria when they already had Psychic Scream.
T5 is horrible when it comes to proper design for the rogue class. They use excuses to say the class should not get something because of Prep or some other card, but when it comes to other classes they usually fall flat on their face by not taking into strong consideration when giving other classes new tools.
They should reduce the cost of other spells. Thistle tea was made 6 Mana only because of preparation.
I honestly feel this was one contributing factor for buffs finally being released into the game, and that this first wave of completely random buffed cards are an experiment towards buffing older rogue spells (among other cards in general).
T5 has said multiple times pre-Prep nerf that all rogue spells have been designed with prep in mind. It would be incredibly naive for any of us to even say that they aren't aware that by nerfing prep you nerf every single spell rogue has been given up to this point.
I'm already calling that rogue spell buffs are already being planned on the table (mostly coming in the form of mana reductions, just like all of these boomsday cards received).
Rogue was the first class I ever played devotedly. I crafted 2 preps and Edwin to play miracles back when I first started actively playing the game in UnGoro times.
Prep raiding party was a cancer proxy for players to start dominating the meta with an easy combo for a powerful deck. In this meta, having a guaranteed double taunt and Waggle Pick draw for free with prep was so ridiculously powerful and put so much early pressure on many decks. Previously it was a kingsbane draw with charge pirates or Greenskin, but Waggle pick being so much more powerful, especially with a 5 health miscreant in the board that you couldn’t kill turn 3 after they coined it, created a scenario that was disheartening to play against. It opened the door for them to always have the backstab or the sap to defend themselves in the long game before they Myra’s’d into their finishers, and they just dominated the tempo game since they had strong draw and consistent answers
In terms of miscreant, when I played rogue to counter rogue, it sucked that I couldn’t kill the miscreant even with eviscerate. Making it 4 health is a good balancing call that I feel still fits with the power level of gaining the lackeys.
Circling back I agree with OP that prep is a sad nerf, but it feels slightly better to me that it will have to be used more carefully. It’s still a powerful miracle tool and the best decks will survive. New cards will be made in stride and maybe we will see some other stronger 2 mana spells to fit with it! It definitely opens a lot of design space for other spells now. Current rogue might suck a little bit retroactively, but I think it’s fine because now we can actually see a bit more of the rogue cards in place of prep perhaps or even pirates at all.
I think they're buffing the mid-game so much and Rouge was by-default a strong mid-game class. nerfing Prep will slow down Rouge more but still so many strong 3 drop minions for rouge that they are still strong in the mid-game.
People don't ever point out that team 5 gathers data on cards that nobody is aware of. This goes back to Azure Drake level of play in decks. Rogue decks rely way too much on prep. Same thing happened to druid.
Then everyone starts playing the same deck because they know there is no better match up in terms of play-ability.
As they said if you want to win against rogue you had only 1 choice, and that was Warrior.
The only sad part about Rogue was queuing up against one.
But now, after 3 full years of Standard, nerfing Basic or Classic cards is UNACCEPTABLE, no matter what.
Those cards were designed years ago, when noone could predict what future will bring. Some of them were strong - but not OP - because number of tools was limited. Now, some of those cards are synergising too well with newest additions, so they have to be either nerfed, either HoFed.
Let's take Shield Slam as an example. Back then - during basic/classic era - armor options for Warrior were very limited. Shield Block, Armorsmith, hero power... and that was it. To kill heavy minion (like 10 HP+) he had to stack armor for very log time, using only hero power (which was almost impossible) or play combo Shield Block + Shield Block + Hero Power + Shield Slam for 9 mana! That was fair, huge effect for big cost and was usable only one time. Now, when Warrior can generate tons of armor with ease, Shield Slam effectively serves as 1 mana "Destroy a minion" card. Isn't that crazy? Noone can outtempo that!
Now look at Rouge's spells, which she could combine with Preparation during basic/classic era, and compare them with spells from current standard, it's pretty much the same thing. That's why some old cards should not co-exist with current ones.
Let's be fair, who played the Miscreant for his 1-5 stats? Certainly not me. I for one had a pit in my stomach when I saw his nerf because I thought we only get one lackey now. I couldn't care less about the HP nerf.
Raiding Party nerf? This card is the definition of consistency and value. A nerf was expected from my side.
Now, the elephant in the room. Preparation. This was mostly a "sad" nerf for me because this card is what made Rogue.. Rogue. But definitely not "omg the class is destroyed wtf blizord".
The good Rogue's will still be found dominating and winning, rather than all the plebs who learned to Prep+Raiding Party and high-roll spells from the Hench-clan Burgler and win the game.
Amen. Props to you for not whining like most of the other Rogue players.
Those nerfs (especially the last two you listed) have hit Rogue really hard, but they were kinda inevitable: just because players like a card, it doesn't mean it's perfect and won't be touched in the future.
To be fair, I know a decent number of Rogue players that are happy with the Preparation nerf because from now on the class won't get overcosted spells anymore.
And why do these short thoughts need their own thread rather than a post in one of the already existing ones?
Amen to that. Why do people feel the need to share all their feelings on here. Tons of threads on the nerfs. Add to those discussions. No one is a special snowflake.
False - I am a special snowflake, my mom told me so. Besides, unlike some boards, this one has no 'search before you post' rule so it comes with the territory to have duplicate threads. It makes sense too because discussions about nerfs announced for rouge are no longer relevant after the buff announcement.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
The prep nerf was not needed, and dealt a near-fatal blow to the class in this meta. The raiding party hurts, but it's not insurmountable. The miscreant nerf is whatever.
Rogue spells have been designed for years with preparation in mind. Now, with that one change, the entirety of the classes' build structure has been damaged. It was one step too far, and Blizzard did a disservice to the community with it.
But the tea leaves have been saying for quite some time that the devs now realize that mana generators are destructive to the game. Look at poor Druid.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
don't worry, Rogue will be rogue.
Dead but dreaming
My hope for the class, for me Preparation always be a curse for the class, you be forced expansion after expansion to use only the excelent classic set and ignore all released classic cards because was overcosted by presence of Preparation.
Raiding Party was an exception who prove the rule, unnerfed Preparation make any good 3 manas spell broken, no class can outempo something like that.
Better later than never, I really wanted this nerf be done when the horrible designed quest rogue deck was around...
I don't agree with Prep nerf.
And in general I think iconic cards should remain the way they are.
How about we make fireball 5 mana next because why not right ?
No I am not a salty rogue player. I actually play resurrect priest and this change is theoretically beneficial for the deck I currently play since rugue got me the most looses but I still dislike it.
IMO Ever Green format should really mean ever green. I know we get dust back but that's not the point. I feel like they are always pushing us to play new cards instead of the ones that we already have and love.
I feel that T5 acts inconsistently between the classes.
They say they always had to keep in mind rogue spells due to Prep and that it stifled design.
However, when you look at other classes having powerful tools that already existed for a different class it did not prevent T5 from giving them more strong tools for that same class (An absolutely perfect example was when warlocks got Godfrey when they already very recently had Defile. Having Defile in the class toolkit should have been design limiting for the class to not get Godfrey in the same standard meta. Yep, no chance). Another example was giving priest Mass Hysteria when they already had Psychic Scream.
T5 is horrible when it comes to proper design for the rogue class. They use excuses to say the class should not get something because of Prep or some other card, but when it comes to other classes they usually fall flat on their face by not taking into strong consideration when giving other classes new tools.
They should reduce the cost of other spells. Thistle tea was made 6 Mana only because of preparation.
I honestly feel this was one contributing factor for buffs finally being released into the game, and that this first wave of completely random buffed cards are an experiment towards buffing older rogue spells (among other cards in general).
T5 has said multiple times pre-Prep nerf that all rogue spells have been designed with prep in mind. It would be incredibly naive for any of us to even say that they aren't aware that by nerfing prep you nerf every single spell rogue has been given up to this point.
I'm already calling that rogue spell buffs are already being planned on the table (mostly coming in the form of mana reductions, just like all of these boomsday cards received).
Rogue was the first class I ever played devotedly. I crafted 2 preps and Edwin to play miracles back when I first started actively playing the game in UnGoro times.
Prep raiding party was a cancer proxy for players to start dominating the meta with an easy combo for a powerful deck. In this meta, having a guaranteed double taunt and Waggle Pick draw for free with prep was so ridiculously powerful and put so much early pressure on many decks. Previously it was a kingsbane draw with charge pirates or Greenskin, but Waggle pick being so much more powerful, especially with a 5 health miscreant in the board that you couldn’t kill turn 3 after they coined it, created a scenario that was disheartening to play against. It opened the door for them to always have the backstab or the sap to defend themselves in the long game before they Myra’s’d into their finishers, and they just dominated the tempo game since they had strong draw and consistent answers
In terms of miscreant, when I played rogue to counter rogue, it sucked that I couldn’t kill the miscreant even with eviscerate. Making it 4 health is a good balancing call that I feel still fits with the power level of gaining the lackeys.
Circling back I agree with OP that prep is a sad nerf, but it feels slightly better to me that it will have to be used more carefully. It’s still a powerful miracle tool and the best decks will survive. New cards will be made in stride and maybe we will see some other stronger 2 mana spells to fit with it! It definitely opens a lot of design space for other spells now. Current rogue might suck a little bit retroactively, but I think it’s fine because now we can actually see a bit more of the rogue cards in place of prep perhaps or even pirates at all.
I think they're buffing the mid-game so much and Rouge was by-default a strong mid-game class.
nerfing Prep will slow down Rouge more but still so many strong 3 drop minions for rouge that they are still strong in the mid-game.
People don't ever point out that team 5 gathers data on cards that nobody is aware of. This goes back to Azure Drake level of play in decks. Rogue decks rely way too much on prep. Same thing happened to druid.
Then everyone starts playing the same deck because they know there is no better match up in terms of play-ability.
As they said if you want to win against rogue you had only 1 choice, and that was Warrior.
The only sad part about Rogue was queuing up against one.
So internet cops ask "why". That's why :)
I mean, I could e-mail you a paper saying 'you're special' if that's what you want. All you need to do is ask.
Rogues always find a way. That's a certainty.
Thing is, once you define an Evergreen set, you must make sure it is thoroughly fine.
It would have been ok a brutal set of nerfs on Classic, once it it became an Evergreen. Same on Basic.
Maybe also after a full year of Standard, at the end of Kraken, once you see how it fares.
But now, after 3 full years of Standard, nerfing Basic or Classic cards is UNACCEPTABLE, no matter what.
It's simply ridiculous, and telling of either a clueless design team, or careless of the overall quality of the game. Or both.
Those cards were designed years ago, when noone could predict what future will bring. Some of them were strong - but not OP - because number of tools was limited. Now, some of those cards are synergising too well with newest additions, so they have to be either nerfed, either HoFed.
Let's take Shield Slam as an example. Back then - during basic/classic era - armor options for Warrior were very limited. Shield Block, Armorsmith, hero power... and that was it. To kill heavy minion (like 10 HP+) he had to stack armor for very log time, using only hero power (which was almost impossible) or play combo Shield Block + Shield Block + Hero Power + Shield Slam for 9 mana! That was fair, huge effect for big cost and was usable only one time. Now, when Warrior can generate tons of armor with ease, Shield Slam effectively serves as 1 mana "Destroy a minion" card. Isn't that crazy? Noone can outtempo that!
Now look at Rouge's spells, which she could combine with Preparation during basic/classic era, and compare them with spells from current standard, it's pretty much the same thing. That's why some old cards should not co-exist with current ones.