SI:7, backstab, prep, Edwin, eviscerated, sap, deadly poison, fan of knives, shadowstep are played since the dawn of Hearthstone. They might change something, but I don't think they will touch prep because all Rogue spell have been designed with prep in mind.
I sense SI:7 could get the keeper of the Grove treatment and become a 2/2 and maybe touch backstab (1 dmg only but unconditional ?). After all may be right considering that there wasn't a meta where Rogue was bad. And there has been no World Championship where the winner did not have a Rogue list.
In case they do nerf it tho, something must be done to Warrior too. Too many removals and armor gain
SI:7, backstab, prep, Edwin, eviscerated, sap, deadly poison, fan of knives, shadowstep are played since the dawn of Hearthstone. They might change something, but I don't think they will touch prep because all Rogue spell have been designed with prep in mind.
I sense SI:7 could get the keeper of the Grove treatment and become a 2/2 and maybe touch backstab (1 dmg only but unconditional ?). After all may be right considering that there wasn't a meta where Rogue was bad. And there has been no World Championship where the winner did not have a Rogue list.
In case they do nerf it tho, something must be done to Warrior too. Too many removals and armor gain
Change Waggle Pick to a 3 mana 3/2 weapon. You definitely don’t change Backstab. Prep being changed to “Your next spell costs 2 less” would also be a pretty good change, but I wouldn’t change it from costing 0 to costing 1. I imagine only Prep or Waggle Pick will get changed, as Blizzard won’t want the team refunding us 1600+ dust.
Rogue is supposed to be frustrating. That’s the class identity. But if they lose tempo, they lose. It’s consistent with rogues identity in typical RPGs. Plus it’s not an easy class to pilot with the exception of Odd Rogue.
Can we just stop with nerfing rogue all of the time already and nerf some other class that almost never gets a nerf (particularly dodges class nerfs constantly)?
Rogue:
Nerf Miracle Rogue by rotating Conceal
Nerf Mill by rotating Oracle (I personally don't mind this one at all)
Nerf Quest Rogue, twice
Nerf Tempo Rogue in two ways
Indirect nerf to the old Maly Rogue (With sinisters)
Meanwhile, take a look at how frequently classes like warlock, mage, or priest actually get nerfed.
Rogue has no class heals, they have no board clears, they have been given almost no control tools or value engines to even experiment with control is most standard metas. The key isn't to lower their tempo capabilities since they have consistently been left out of the full selection of playstyles (while schitzophrenic warrior & priest get to play control/hyper aggro/midrange/tempo/fatigue and control/combo/otk/fatigue respectively).
I understand that you must love playing Rogue, but your post is pretty disingenuous. You act as if the devs pick on Rogue time and time again, which just isn't the case. If you don't believe me, go look at the previous World Championship decks, which have each had multiple cards nerfed or hall of famed. Furthermore, Rogue has been in the winning line up of all 4 World Champions so far and with 15 out of 16 players bringing Rogue to the current World Championship, it looks like it will soon be a 5th year straight of strong Rogue decks. Rogue hasn't ever been bad. Rogue has arguably the strongest classic set in the game, which always gives them an opportunity to make strong tempo or miracle decks.
For the record here are the many, many, many decks that have had cards nerfed and/or Hall of Famed in the past 5 years. I might miss something, but you'll get the point.
Druid:
Token Druid (Force of Nature, Ancient of Lore, Keeper of the Grove, Spreading Plague)
Druid in general (Innervate, Wild Growth and Nourish)
Star-Aligner Druid (Aviana)
Fatigue Druid (Naturalize)
Hunter:
Aggro/Midrange Hunter's neutral and class minions (Undertaker, Leper Gnome, Abusive Sergeant, Knife Juggler, Arcane Golem, Ironbeak Owl, Starving Buzzard, Leeroy, Emerald Spellstone, Call of the Wild)
Hunter's Removal (Hunter's Mark twice, Flare, Unleash the Hounds)
Pirate Warrior (Small Time Buccaneer, Patches the Pirate, Firey War Axe)
Patron Warrior (Warsong Commander)
TLDR: Every class besides Priest has had at least several cards nerfed. It should come as no surprise to you why Priest hasn't been nerfed very often. Priest was fairly mediocre until Raza, Kazakus and Shadowreaper Anduin were released. If you are going to make incorrect and sweeping generalizations about the state of the game, at least don't let them be so easy to debunk. This is a digital card game. It would be a wasted opportunity to not nerf cards to level the playing field. If you want to play a card game with no nerfs, go play a paper card game like MTG or Yu-Gi-Oh where your broken cards just get banned instead, leaving them unplayable. Doesn't that sound better /s
PS: I'm wondering how your personal biases are going to get you out of this one.
My love or hate of rogue has little to do with my intentions for advocating against nerfing more of its cards. I see that bandwagon thought is bad for the game overall if the goal is to make any class have weak classic/basic sets. You mentioned priest's design issue centered on its weak starting set. When do you stop nerfing rogue? Do you nerf prep and stop? What about when people complain about Sap? Evis? The point isn't to reduce any class in this game to a Hearthstone equivalent of the great WoW talent/ability pruning, making it so any class is a highly undertuned shadow of what they started as during the onset of this game's release.
Don't be so naive. T5 is terrible at proper balance decisions on many fronts when it comes to retuning cards (Or have you forgotten Warsong Commander and NSW?) Nerfing something too badly in a digital card game is akin to banning something in a physical game, only worse because if you strip it of all competitive nature not only have you essentially deleted the card but you don't even 'own' personal digital copies of said card(s) to play in private games with just friends off of ladder/casual. I aim for the preservation of most card in general because variety is the spice of life. The more you nerf the fewer total decks there are to play when you want to. I could care less about creating a nearly impossible competitive scene where you magically have every class at near equal power level (This is impossible in its purest sense btw).
I'll end by posing you a little question. Have you ever considered why rogue has such a strong classic/basic set? I've mentioned recently on these forums that rogue has consistently been intentionally shafted from consistent control synergies. Rogue is based around tempo and/or aggro due to the class being pigeonholed into such a playstyle. It should not come as a surprise that the classic/basic rogue cards are powerful tempo cards, because they have nothing else. N'Zoth, Valeera, & now Togwaggle's Scheme have been some of the closest late game attrition control synergies that the class have been given in the history of the game (with random unsupported control cards being sprinkled inconsistently across scattered metas without any other rogue control support, such as was the case for Sneed's). Nerfing rogue of it's tempo capabilities would have been like nerfing mage burst and/or tempo cards back before Jaina, BSM, & Quest Mage ever became a thing.
TL;DR: You don't nerf a class of it's primary playstyle without having proper alternatives to allow the class to branch off elsewhere.
The problem is that Rogue's strong classic set limits their design space going forward. Take prep for example. Sprint is the most expensive Rogue card made in 5 years of development. Team 5 knows that if they ever make a powerful and expensive Rogue card it will be way too problematic for that card to get played 3 turns early every game. Think back to before wild growth and nourish were nerfed. Wasn't it annoying when Druid would play Ultimate Infestation 3-4 turns early? Prep is the reason why Rogue doesn't get expensive spells. Similarly, Sap also limits design space. For any Rogue removal card to played instead of or alongside Sap it has to be crazy powerful (Vilespine Slayer for example). 5 years from now if we are still playing the same strong cards in rogue decks, the game will be super boring. If the game doesn't change meaningfully between expansions, people will get bored and quit.
Of course, there is a fine balance to this. You don't want to nerf/rotate cards too often and make people feel like their cards don't hold their value. The good news is that Blizzard has been much more gentle with their nerfs in the last couple years. They've even shown in the case of Molten Giant that they are willing to unnerf a card if they change their mind. The days of Starving Buzzard and Warsong Commander nerfs are behind us. Many recently nerfed cards still see regular lay, such as Execute, Corridor Creeper, Spreading Plague, Patches, Call to Arms, Chain Gang, etc. Even with a couple small nerfs, Rogue would still be really strong. I also disagree with your premise that more nerfs equals less playable decks. I think it's the opposite. When a few classes are stronger, they naturally push other classes out of the meta. Currently most classes don't have enough armor or healing to outlast Rogue and most classes also can't out value Warrior in the late game. I agree that perfect balance would be nearly impossible, but there is no reason to not try to get close at the very least. Wouldn't you rather see a dozen viable decks in the meta?
(Side note on Naga Sea Witch since you brought it up. That card created such crazy boards in the mid game that a gentle nerf wouldn't have solved anything. NSW truly needed a Warsong style nerf and I'm glad for it)
In response to your question, Blizzard likes to keep the roles of each class clearly defined. Rogue efficiently kills or negates large minions, generates extra cards, has good burst damage, but struggles with healing and clearing wide boards. Blizzard sometimes explores space outside of these roles, (such as when Druid got tons of card draw during Year of the Mammoth), but they generally stay consistent. If Rogue could clear huge boards like Warlock, swarm with tokens like Shaman or gain tons of armor like Warrior, then what's the point of being Rogue. It'd be pretty boring if every class did the same things. (Besides you can play Mill Rogue or Dane's Big Rogue in wild with plenty of tools to win in the late game)
SI:7, backstab, prep, Edwin, eviscerated, sap, deadly poison, fan of knives, shadowstep are played since the dawn of Hearthstone. They might change something, but I don't think they will touch prep because all Rogue spell have been designed with prep in mind.
I sense SI:7 could get the keeper of the Grove treatment and become a 2/2 and maybe touch backstab (1 dmg only but unconditional ?). After all may be right considering that there wasn't a meta where Rogue was bad. And there has been no World Championship where the winner did not have a Rogue list.
In case they do nerf it tho, something must be done to Warrior too. Too many removals and armor gain
Prep is very likely to get hit since Blizz said they are watching that card and we all know where most "watched" cards end up. We expect 2, maybe 3 Rogue cards to get the nerfhammer, prep being one of those with the mana discount reduced to 2.
Prep has to be nerfed or HoF’ed. As for the new cards, Evil Miscreant and Wagglepick are probably a bit too strong. So probably minus 1 lackey and minus 1 attack respectively would make sense.
But rogue is fine you say? Let’s look at some facts.
-Rogue is by far the most played class on both ladder as well as HTC.
-Rogue is represented the most (15) at HTC.
-it has one of the highest winrates.
-Winrate >55% against 8/9 classes available.
-People are forced to play sleep warrior against it and even then a few tech cards makes it very favourable eg nomi, scheme
-it has the best tempo tools and combo is made easier and idiot proof with the introduction of 1 mana lackeys and discover a spell lackeys, doing combo’s without being good has never been easier in the whole history of hearthstone
-it has the best unconditional single target removal tool in the form of SAP
- A million bounce effect that reduces the minions cost by 2 as well making insane stuff possible
-Some classes maybe have 1viable deck, rogue has endless variations with a core of 25 cards that are amazing
Rogue is the biggest problem class there is with unfair advantage in tempo generation, card draw and value generation , yet the majority of the playerbase is willingly turning a blind eye towards it. This is not a new phenonemon as it existed during the era of deathstalker rexar as well, professional, hunter players thought rexar should be buffed to 5 mana instead of staying at 6 because the hero power and immediate effect was not good enough.
The only reason why tempo/aggro rogue is not a tier 1 deck with over 58% winrate is because of control warrior existing and yet the majority of the people are targeting the wrong class... is there a conspiracy going on here?
I have to emphasize the point above, because it seems most rogue lovers here don’t get the big picture and just jump in to cry about people crying for nerfs. Classes like token druid , khadgar mage, mech hunter , big shaman , control warrior all have several unfavorable matchups from DIFFERENT decks from DIFFERENT classes. Rogue on the other hand has a favorable matchup over >55% against every single class and deck type EXCEPT the three variants of CONTROL warrior. We are forced to queue into all these sleep elysiana warriors all because of rogue being OP. Get it? If you still don’t think that’s a problem, you are obviously biased to the point you don’t need to waste time here.
Rogue is fun, you say? As you all know fun is subjective, just because you think rogue is fun doesn’t mean that everyone think it’s fun and make it any less deserving on a nerf based on data. Just like a diehard group of people who think priests are fun, or sleep warrior are fun doesn’t make it any less a candidate. But all the data right now points towards rogue being oppressive and needing a merf.
Anyway let’s talk about the busted rogue class which is represented the most in the upcoming hct as a nobrainer inclusion because it’s busted according to all the pro players.
Let’s see a list of possible rogue nerfs to test the waters include:
Preparation> change it to 1 mana.
Backstab > zap has 1 mana overload so change it to 1 mana or deal 1 damage
Raiding party > change it to 4 mana.
Sap> it’s a better execute, polymorph, shield slam without conditions, change to 4 mana.
Extra passive to hero power> Rogue always goes first, so they never get the coin.
SI agent > change it to 4 mana
Myra’s unstable element> let’s make it 7 mana, why not?
I do agree that rogue needs to be tuned down, but i found your suggestions funny to say the least, i'm not a dev or anything but if i would change something it's problably Waggle pick and Preparation, not the entire class.
Now I know that's not likely to happen all the time and my opponent even Friended me afterwards (about 30 seconds later) to apologise. I guess he felt bad for refilling his hand and dropping a 12/12. On Turn 2.
I'd agree with RegisKilbin's suggested changes, making Waggle Pick a 4 Mana 3/3 and changing EvC so that he gets +2/+1 instead.
Now I know that's not likely to happen all the time and my opponent even Friended me afterwards (about 30 seconds later) to apologise. I guess he felt bad for refilling his hand and dropping a 12/12. On Turn 2.
I'd agree with RegisKilbin's suggested changes, making Waggle Pick a 4 Mana 3/3 and changing EvC so that he gets +2/+1 instead.
With regards to EvC - I don't think he's really that big of a problem overall, because he's an ultra-high-roll sort of card. Occasionally you're going to get something amazing like your opponent experienced, but he's fairly easy to counter with silence, and target removal usually (and the turn 2 dream happens very rarely; in fact I think in the years I've played him, I've only had that happen for me a handful of times or so).
I don't know about the pick suggestion - I mean, the problems I've found when playing against rogue, is not so much the bounce back effect, but the added extra damage that the weapon does to your face. With Captain Greenskin adding more damage and durability it makes the weapon even more frustrating to deal with, with an even higher damage output. (Not to mention that it's easy for the rogue to trigger the abiolity whenever they want by hitting their HP) - so increasing the durability is a terrifying idea at best! :-(
Why nerf Waggle pick? Are people just to lazy to add weapon removal to their decks? Ooze on the pick hugely disrupts rogue play.
Why start complaining about edwin after being 5 years in the game? A big edwin on turn 2-3 happens once every 5 games. Yes, it's frustrating, but so is an 8/8 giant on turn 3 and a board full on turn 5.
Now I know that's not likely to happen all the time and my opponent even Friended me afterwards (about 30 seconds later) to apologise. I guess he felt bad for refilling his hand and dropping a 12/12. On Turn 2.
I'd agree with RegisKilbin's suggested changes, making Waggle Pick a 4 Mana 3/3 and changing EvC so that he gets +2/+1 instead.
With regards to EvC - I don't think he's really that big of a problem overall, because he's an ultra-high-roll sort of card. Occasionally you're going to get something amazing like your opponent experienced, but he's fairly easy to counter with silence, and target removal usually (and the turn 2 dream happens very rarely; in fact I think in the years I've played him, I've only had that happen for me a handful of times or so).
The dream happens much more frequently now because of Raiding Party and cheap lackeys.
Why nerf Waggle pick? Are people just to lazy to add weapon removal to their decks? Ooze on the pick hugely disrupts rogue play.
It's not so much the Bounce Back effect that's the problem. It's the fact that Waggle Pick allows you to play the two, free 3/3 Taunts that the Rogue player inevitably has after the Preparation, Raiding Party play the turn before.
If it was a 3/3 or a 3/2 then this would slow the deck down slightly. At least enough for thier opponents to at least look for an answer.
Now I know that's not likely to happen all the time and my opponent even Friended me afterwards (about 30 seconds later) to apologise. I guess he felt bad for refilling his hand and dropping a 12/12. On Turn 2.
I'd agree with RegisKilbin's suggested changes, making Waggle Pick a 4 Mana 3/3 and changing EvC so that he gets +2/+1 instead.
With regards to EvC - I don't think he's really that big of a problem overall, because he's an ultra-high-roll sort of card. Occasionally you're going to get something amazing like your opponent experienced, but he's fairly easy to counter with silence, and target removal usually (and the turn 2 dream happens very rarely; in fact I think in the years I've played him, I've only had that happen for me a handful of times or so).
The dream happens much more frequently now because of Raiding Party and cheap lackeys.
It still requires you to get both a legendary minion and a Prep in hand, along with the Coin in order to make the dream happen on turn 2 (or even 3). Raiding party doesn't really help with VanCleef much other than pulling perhaps a Southsea Deckhand or two. But there's not enough mana for that to really be useful unless you also pulled Shadowsteps as well.
So that's a combo upwards of 4 cards that are required in the starting 2 turns, one of which is a legendary. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I personally believe that it's likely not as common as you might think. It requires some pretty heavy God Draws.
Why nerf Waggle pick? Are people just to lazy to add weapon removal to their decks? Ooze on the pick hugely disrupts rogue play.
It's not so much the Bounce Back effect that's the problem. It's the fact that Waggle Pick allows you to play the two, free 3/3 Taunts that the Rogue player inevitably has after the Preparation, Raiding Party play the turn before.
If it was a 3/3 or a 3/2 then this would slow the deck down slightly. At least enough for thier opponents to at least look for an answer.
Sure. I understand. However, the Rogue still only has to play Captain Greenskin and then can drop two free Dread Corsairs as before. There' might be a turn delay, but Rogue certainly has enough tempo for this not to cause a significant issue (I think). But that's just my opinion of course.
I think the point I'm trying to get at here, though, is that Durability on a weapon has a much bigger impact than people might think - and certainly more than Attack value (which is much more easily increased in the rogue class)
Why nerf Waggle pick? Are people just to lazy to add weapon removal to their decks? Ooze on the pick hugely disrupts rogue play.
It's not so much the Bounce Back effect that's the problem. It's the fact that Waggle Pick allows you to play the two, free 3/3 Taunts that the Rogue player inevitably has after the Preparation, Raiding Party play the turn before.
If it was a 3/3 or a 3/2 then this would slow the deck down slightly. At least enough for thier opponents to at least look for an answer.
This is turn 4 at the soonest. You have time enough to prepare for this. Especially since rogue has no significant play other than maybe coin/miscreant. Being able to play miscreant before turn 4 and the pick+ corsairs almost never happens.
I just got used oozes against me and this is more than sufficient to disrupt me severly.
For sure Rogue has the best basic/classic set.
SI:7, backstab, prep, Edwin, eviscerated, sap, deadly poison, fan of knives, shadowstep are played since the dawn of Hearthstone. They might change something, but I don't think they will touch prep because all Rogue spell have been designed with prep in mind.
I sense SI:7 could get the keeper of the Grove treatment and become a 2/2 and maybe touch backstab (1 dmg only but unconditional ?). After all may be right considering that there wasn't a meta where Rogue was bad. And there has been no World Championship where the winner did not have a Rogue list.
In case they do nerf it tho, something must be done to Warrior too. Too many removals and armor gain
check those links: https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/169/tempo-rogue#tab=matchups
rogues wins Vs all but warrior.
https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/2/control-warrior#tab=matchups
warriors on other hand loses to Mage, hunters , paladin and Priest
warrior is not that good lets be real.
its only played because rogue is 30% of the meta
Change Waggle Pick to a 3 mana 3/2 weapon. You definitely don’t change Backstab. Prep being changed to “Your next spell costs 2 less” would also be a pretty good change, but I wouldn’t change it from costing 0 to costing 1. I imagine only Prep or Waggle Pick will get changed, as Blizzard won’t want the team refunding us 1600+ dust.
Rogue is supposed to be frustrating. That’s the class identity. But if they lose tempo, they lose. It’s consistent with rogues identity in typical RPGs. Plus it’s not an easy class to pilot with the exception of Odd Rogue.
The problem is that Rogue's strong classic set limits their design space going forward. Take prep for example. Sprint is the most expensive Rogue card made in 5 years of development. Team 5 knows that if they ever make a powerful and expensive Rogue card it will be way too problematic for that card to get played 3 turns early every game. Think back to before wild growth and nourish were nerfed. Wasn't it annoying when Druid would play Ultimate Infestation 3-4 turns early? Prep is the reason why Rogue doesn't get expensive spells. Similarly, Sap also limits design space. For any Rogue removal card to played instead of or alongside Sap it has to be crazy powerful (Vilespine Slayer for example). 5 years from now if we are still playing the same strong cards in rogue decks, the game will be super boring. If the game doesn't change meaningfully between expansions, people will get bored and quit.
Of course, there is a fine balance to this. You don't want to nerf/rotate cards too often and make people feel like their cards don't hold their value. The good news is that Blizzard has been much more gentle with their nerfs in the last couple years. They've even shown in the case of Molten Giant that they are willing to unnerf a card if they change their mind. The days of Starving Buzzard and Warsong Commander nerfs are behind us. Many recently nerfed cards still see regular lay, such as Execute, Corridor Creeper, Spreading Plague, Patches, Call to Arms, Chain Gang, etc. Even with a couple small nerfs, Rogue would still be really strong. I also disagree with your premise that more nerfs equals less playable decks. I think it's the opposite. When a few classes are stronger, they naturally push other classes out of the meta. Currently most classes don't have enough armor or healing to outlast Rogue and most classes also can't out value Warrior in the late game. I agree that perfect balance would be nearly impossible, but there is no reason to not try to get close at the very least. Wouldn't you rather see a dozen viable decks in the meta?
(Side note on Naga Sea Witch since you brought it up. That card created such crazy boards in the mid game that a gentle nerf wouldn't have solved anything. NSW truly needed a Warsong style nerf and I'm glad for it)
In response to your question, Blizzard likes to keep the roles of each class clearly defined. Rogue efficiently kills or negates large minions, generates extra cards, has good burst damage, but struggles with healing and clearing wide boards. Blizzard sometimes explores space outside of these roles, (such as when Druid got tons of card draw during Year of the Mammoth), but they generally stay consistent. If Rogue could clear huge boards like Warlock, swarm with tokens like Shaman or gain tons of armor like Warrior, then what's the point of being Rogue. It'd be pretty boring if every class did the same things. (Besides you can play Mill Rogue or Dane's Big Rogue in wild with plenty of tools to win in the late game)
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Only posting here to mention my suspicion that OP is a sadbad.
Prep is very likely to get hit since Blizz said they are watching that card and we all know where most "watched" cards end up. We expect 2, maybe 3 Rogue cards to get the nerfhammer, prep being one of those with the mana discount reduced to 2.
Prep has to be nerfed or HoF’ed. As for the new cards, Evil Miscreant and Wagglepick are probably a bit too strong. So probably minus 1 lackey and minus 1 attack respectively would make sense.
ROFL
I do agree that rogue needs to be tuned down, but i found your suggestions funny to say the least, i'm not a dev or anything but if i would change something it's problably Waggle pick and Preparation, not the entire class.
id rather see rading and waggle get nerfed
Last night my Rogue Opponent had THE DREAM. Preparation into Raiding Party into Preparation into Raiding Party into The Coin into a 12/12 Edwin VanCleef
On Turn 2....
Now I know that's not likely to happen all the time and my opponent even Friended me afterwards (about 30 seconds later) to apologise. I guess he felt bad for refilling his hand and dropping a 12/12. On Turn 2.
I'd agree with RegisKilbin's suggested changes, making Waggle Pick a 4 Mana 3/3 and changing EvC so that he gets +2/+1 instead.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
With regards to EvC - I don't think he's really that big of a problem overall, because he's an ultra-high-roll sort of card. Occasionally you're going to get something amazing like your opponent experienced, but he's fairly easy to counter with silence, and target removal usually (and the turn 2 dream happens very rarely; in fact I think in the years I've played him, I've only had that happen for me a handful of times or so).
I don't know about the pick suggestion - I mean, the problems I've found when playing against rogue, is not so much the bounce back effect, but the added extra damage that the weapon does to your face. With Captain Greenskin adding more damage and durability it makes the weapon even more frustrating to deal with, with an even higher damage output. (Not to mention that it's easy for the rogue to trigger the abiolity whenever they want by hitting their HP) - so increasing the durability is a terrifying idea at best! :-(
Why nerf Waggle pick? Are people just to lazy to add weapon removal to their decks? Ooze on the pick hugely disrupts rogue play.
Why start complaining about edwin after being 5 years in the game? A big edwin on turn 2-3 happens once every 5 games. Yes, it's frustrating, but so is an 8/8 giant on turn 3 and a board full on turn 5.
The dream happens much more frequently now because of Raiding Party and cheap lackeys.
It's not so much the Bounce Back effect that's the problem. It's the fact that Waggle Pick allows you to play the two, free 3/3 Taunts that the Rogue player inevitably has after the Preparation, Raiding Party play the turn before.
If it was a 3/3 or a 3/2 then this would slow the deck down slightly. At least enough for thier opponents to at least look for an answer.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
It still requires you to get both a legendary minion and a Prep in hand, along with the Coin in order to make the dream happen on turn 2 (or even 3). Raiding party doesn't really help with VanCleef much other than pulling perhaps a Southsea Deckhand or two. But there's not enough mana for that to really be useful unless you also pulled Shadowsteps as well.
So that's a combo upwards of 4 cards that are required in the starting 2 turns, one of which is a legendary.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I personally believe that it's likely not as common as you might think. It requires some pretty heavy God Draws.
Sure. I understand. However, the Rogue still only has to play Captain Greenskin and then can drop two free Dread Corsairs as before. There' might be a turn delay, but Rogue certainly has enough tempo for this not to cause a significant issue (I think).
But that's just my opinion of course.
I think the point I'm trying to get at here, though, is that Durability on a weapon has a much bigger impact than people might think - and certainly more than Attack value (which is much more easily increased in the rogue class)
This is turn 4 at the soonest. You have time enough to prepare for this. Especially since rogue has no significant play other than maybe coin/miscreant. Being able to play miscreant before turn 4 and the pick+ corsairs almost never happens.
I just got used oozes against me and this is more than sufficient to disrupt me severly.
LOL @ the idea that weapon destruction matters