By the logic that Astalor is perfectly fine because power creep, what would be the FINAL form of such cards after decades of said power creep? Would "0 mana : destroy your opponent" be okay? If not, where do you draw the line?
The OP only mentioned those two cards, because the other ones are not as problematic - they are not auto-includes.
Something being "normal" doesn't translate to it being "fine". How did you manage to come to that conclusion exactly?
I think perhaps my overall point was missed, in that what I was pointing out is that comparing neutral legendary cards in today's game state to those 2-3 years ago is somewhat inconsequential, because of the nature of normal power creep. (And yes, it IS normal, I'm afraid - that's how games evolve). And that's not to imply that anyone here doesn't know what power creep is of course. Just to posit the reason for why neutral legendary cards are now more powerful than they used to be. In fact, Denathrius is really just a slightly upgraded C'thun when you stop to think about it.
The list of other legendaries I provided were not intended as "Look, these are stronger than those two!", because obviously they aren't (except for decks built around them for a specific purpose). Instead, this thread was stating the "Problem with the most recent Neutral Legendaries", and then only went on to mention two that people have complained about unendingly for the last couple of months. I wanted to point out the fact that there are many other neutral legendaries available than just these two, so worth considering and discussing if there is a problem with them all. However, if it's simply another "Denathrius / Astalor is broken because X..." then let's acknowledge that. (And not try to dress it as a discussion about something else?)
What you are describing here is natural "power creep" that happens in all games of this sort. You can't compare the power strength of cards that came out 2-3 years ago with those currently, because the game has moved on hugely in power and variation since then, so cards like that would be different if created now, then they were back then.
Secondly, you are comparing only 2 of the many neutral legendary cards that came out with a few from back then. This is problematic because you are cherry picking non-similar (except for possibly C'THun) cards which have no bearing on the ones from current standard. What about Neptulon, The Jailer, Lor'themar, Mutanus, etc? These are all super-strong neutral Legendaries that also have huge impact on the game, and are all stronger than most of the legendaries from 2-3 years ago. Again, this is really normal.
Please don't dredge up threads this old. This one died 3 years ago. Let's let it sleep in peace there. If you have something to discuss on the topic, you can create a new thread for it.
Perfect meta: Floods of Aggro decks and games that end before turn 6. Alternatively, full control meta where every game is at least 15 turns, unless opponent concedes, because they're too weak to watch having their board wiped every turn, and while having to face endless Taunts and healing (works best with cards that shuffle cards into decks, so dying from fatigue takes long)
Nightmare Meta: Control decks that require strategy and thought to win, but end games within 15 turns. OTK decks (unless without options to disable / counter them) Finally, aggro if it doesn't have free draw, and can only keep less than 6 damage to face per turn on average
Edit: Made some changes
My personal preferences really must have bothered you, hey? lol Not sure why, though.
Nah, I just try to be funny too much
Oh I hear that. I often try to be funny too. On a rare occasion I may even succeed. 😂
I think that maybe I missed the part where I directed an insult of any kind toward any specific person or even group of people?
So by saying that aggro players have zero thought you not intend to insult that group of people? Ok, fine, whatever.
No, I can see where the misunderstanding is. if you go back and read what I wrote, I said that for me, my “nightmare meta” was (among other things) “anything like that that requires zero thought to play”. As you can see, I directed thoughts about a deck. An object. A stack of cards. And not a person or people. I certainly didnt claim that people who played those decks were incapable of thought. I have played some of those decks myself, so I would include myself in those players. And I still know they require little effort to pilot.
If, as you say, your English is not very good, then I understand this may have been misinterpreted. Its fine, No harm done, and we can move on,
Ummm, no. 10 mana, 5 cards in hand and 30-40 cards in deck seems fine. I mean, not sure where you got 100 cards and 100 health from exactly, but certainly can't have been from anything I said?
Well, you said:
For me, turn 10 is when the game should really begin, when you have the full compliment of mana available. If something is killing you within the first 7-8 turns, there is a problem and this shouldnt be happening. It probably means heroes dont have enough health or options to stabilise.
Yes, exactly. Turn 10. Thats what I said. For a moment there I thought maybe I mispoke, but no, I definitely said nothing about players with 100 cards and 100 health. But both players starting at 10 mana sounds like a great idea. Good suggestion. I agree with you.
Because no one else said that some particular playstyle requires zero thought.
So are you saying that just because someone expressed an opinion you didnt like about your favourite low skill deck archetype, you felt compelled to argue about it with me? Because the fact is that it is just my opinion in terms of what I personally feel about it (I can have whatever opinion about it that I like).
If your opinion didn't include thinking part, I would be absolutely fine with it.
My opinion is fine as long as there is no “thinking” involved in it? I mean, I generally like to think about things before forming opinions about them. Not sure I can help that.
"I love control! I hate aggro!" - that personal opinion is fine. "I love control! You aggro, tempo, midrange players are idiots who don't even think about your plays! Your playstyle existence is a problem!" - that personal opinion is not very nice.
I think that maybe I missed the part where I directed an insult of any kind toward any specific person or even group of people? Can you point me towards it, and I will address it immediately. It would certainly be remiss of me to label any person or group of people with terms like those.
And is that your "personal opinion"? Do you see where the problem lies now?
No, my opinion is that both statements are incorrect and most of the decks, regardless of playstyle, are hard to pilot optimally and should not be diminished to just "play minions", "remove minions" or "draw cards".
And you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine. As long as there is no insult directed towards anyone then that’s fine. Personally I didnt have any intention to spark a debate about what I thought was a fun and interesting topic of thought and opinion.
Would you prefer to start the game at 10 mana, 100 hp, with 10 cards in hand, 100 cards in deck then?
Ummm, no. 10 mana, 5 cards in hand and 30-40 cards in deck seems fine. I mean, not sure where you got 100 cards and 100 health from exactly, but certainly can't have been from anything I said?
Regardless, I was not going to argue about personal tastes. What I disagree with is that aggro requires zero thoughts.
I mean, that IS my personal opinion. So... yeah. I am honestly not really sure why you're being so defensive / reactive about it. The OP asked what people's Golden and Nightmare meta's are. Plenty of others have posted theirs. Why is mine such a problem for you?
As I said, if aggro is just play minions, control is just remove minions.
And is that your "personal opinion"? Do you see where the problem lies now?
Perfect meta: Floods of Aggro decks and games that end before turn 6. Alternatively, full control meta where every game is at least 15 turns, unless opponent concedes, because they're too weak to watch having their board wiped every turn, and while having to face endless Taunts and healing (works best with cards that shuffle cards into decks, so dying from fatigue takes long)
Nightmare Meta: Control decks that require strategy and thought to win, but end games within 15 turns. OTK decks (unless without options to disable / counter them) Finally, aggro if it doesn't have free draw, and can only keep less than 6 damage to face per turn on average
Edit: Made some changes
My personal preferences really must have bothered you, hey? lol Not sure why, though.
Obviously this is all just personal opinion (which I believe is what the OP wanted) - so it's not to say this is what "everyone" wants, just me. :-)
For me, turn 10 is when the game should really begin, when you have the full compliment of mana available. If something is killing you within the first 7-8 turns, there is a problem and this shouldnt be happening. It probably means heroes dont have enough health or options to stabilise.
I never saw much need for thought when playing Zoolock. Just play minions, attack. Get wiped, play more, attack. Rinse, repeat. Implock currently is another version of just this.
Nightmare meta: Anything ruined by floods of Aggro decks and games that don't even make it to turn 10 (Pirate Warriors, Zoolock, Aggro Druid / Mage, anything like that that requires zero thought to play)
Golden Meta: Skill-based control decks that require strategy and though to win. OTK decks with options to disable / counter them (Disruption)
Can't say it has happened to me at all, am afraid. Best I can suggest is to raise a ticket with Blizzard for tech support. Without details of your device, etc, there's not much to go on and even so, it would still be guesswork.
Possible options would be to delete your cache (if playing on Android). Or delete the game and reinstall (if iOS or Android). And maybe do a hard reset of your device.
If you're on PC, I would probably delete and reinstall as well.
I just had a look at my deck in the tavern brawl and soulfires are available to take for me as well. in any case, I just won the Brawl fairly easily using The Soularium and Silverware Golem. Its hard to beat neverending boards of 3/3s heh. Pogo Rogue player rage quit on me.
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Locked for Thread Necromancy.
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Something being "normal" doesn't translate to it being "fine". How did you manage to come to that conclusion exactly?
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I think perhaps my overall point was missed, in that what I was pointing out is that comparing neutral legendary cards in today's game state to those 2-3 years ago is somewhat inconsequential, because of the nature of normal power creep. (And yes, it IS normal, I'm afraid - that's how games evolve).
And that's not to imply that anyone here doesn't know what power creep is of course. Just to posit the reason for why neutral legendary cards are now more powerful than they used to be.
In fact, Denathrius is really just a slightly upgraded C'thun when you stop to think about it.
The list of other legendaries I provided were not intended as "Look, these are stronger than those two!", because obviously they aren't (except for decks built around them for a specific purpose).
Instead, this thread was stating the "Problem with the most recent Neutral Legendaries", and then only went on to mention two that people have complained about unendingly for the last couple of months. I wanted to point out the fact that there are many other neutral legendaries available than just these two, so worth considering and discussing if there is a problem with them all.
However, if it's simply another "Denathrius / Astalor is broken because X..." then let's acknowledge that. (And not try to dress it as a discussion about something else?)
...is all I am saying. :-)
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Couple of things.
What you are describing here is natural "power creep" that happens in all games of this sort. You can't compare the power strength of cards that came out 2-3 years ago with those currently, because the game has moved on hugely in power and variation since then, so cards like that would be different if created now, then they were back then.
Secondly, you are comparing only 2 of the many neutral legendary cards that came out with a few from back then. This is problematic because you are cherry picking non-similar (except for possibly C'THun) cards which have no bearing on the ones from current standard.
What about Neptulon, The Jailer, Lor'themar, Mutanus, etc? These are all super-strong neutral Legendaries that also have huge impact on the game, and are all stronger than most of the legendaries from 2-3 years ago.
Again, this is really normal.
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Please don't dredge up threads this old. This one died 3 years ago. Let's let it sleep in peace there.
If you have something to discuss on the topic, you can create a new thread for it.
Locked.
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Ok, this humble brag thread looks like it was never going to go well and is devolving into mud flinging.
Locking it here before it gets worse.
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Oh I hear that. I often try to be funny too. On a rare occasion I may even succeed. 😂
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No, I can see where the misunderstanding is. if you go back and read what I wrote, I said that for me, my “nightmare meta” was (among other things) “anything like that that requires zero thought to play”.
As you can see, I directed thoughts about a deck. An object. A stack of cards. And not a person or people. I certainly didnt claim that people who played those decks were incapable of thought. I have played some of those decks myself, so I would include myself in those players. And I still know they require little effort to pilot.
If, as you say, your English is not very good, then I understand this may have been misinterpreted. Its fine, No harm done, and we can move on,
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Yes, exactly. Turn 10. Thats what I said. For a moment there I thought maybe I mispoke, but no, I definitely said nothing about players with 100 cards and 100 health. But both players starting at 10 mana sounds like a great idea. Good suggestion. I agree with you.
So are you saying that just because someone expressed an opinion you didnt like about your favourite low skill deck archetype, you felt compelled to argue about it with me? Because the fact is that it is just my opinion in terms of what I personally feel about it (I can have whatever opinion about it that I like).
My opinion is fine as long as there is no “thinking” involved in it? I mean, I generally like to think about things before forming opinions about them. Not sure I can help that.
I think that maybe I missed the part where I directed an insult of any kind toward any specific person or even group of people? Can you point me towards it, and I will address it immediately. It would certainly be remiss of me to label any person or group of people with terms like those.
And you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine. As long as there is no insult directed towards anyone then that’s fine. Personally I didnt have any intention to spark a debate about what I thought was a fun and interesting topic of thought and opinion.
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Ummm, no. 10 mana, 5 cards in hand and 30-40 cards in deck seems fine. I mean, not sure where you got 100 cards and 100 health from exactly, but certainly can't have been from anything I said?
I mean, that IS my personal opinion. So... yeah. I am honestly not really sure why you're being so defensive / reactive about it. The OP asked what people's Golden and Nightmare meta's are. Plenty of others have posted theirs. Why is mine such a problem for you?
And is that your "personal opinion"? Do you see where the problem lies now?
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My personal preferences really must have bothered you, hey? lol
Not sure why, though.
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Obviously this is all just personal opinion (which I believe is what the OP wanted) - so it's not to say this is what "everyone" wants, just me. :-)
For me, turn 10 is when the game should really begin, when you have the full compliment of mana available.
If something is killing you within the first 7-8 turns, there is a problem and this shouldnt be happening. It probably means heroes dont have enough health or options to stabilise.
I never saw much need for thought when playing Zoolock. Just play minions, attack. Get wiped, play more, attack. Rinse, repeat.
Implock currently is another version of just this.
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Nightmare meta: Anything ruined by floods of Aggro decks and games that don't even make it to turn 10
(Pirate Warriors, Zoolock, Aggro Druid / Mage, anything like that that requires zero thought to play)
Golden Meta: Skill-based control decks that require strategy and though to win. OTK decks with options to disable / counter them (Disruption)
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Can't say it has happened to me at all, am afraid.
Best I can suggest is to raise a ticket with Blizzard for tech support.
Without details of your device, etc, there's not much to go on and even so, it would still be guesswork.
Possible options would be to delete your cache (if playing on Android).
Or delete the game and reinstall (if iOS or Android).
And maybe do a hard reset of your device.
If you're on PC, I would probably delete and reinstall as well.
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I just had a look at my deck in the tavern brawl and soulfires are available to take for me as well.
in any case, I just won the Brawl fairly easily using The Soularium and Silverware Golem. Its hard to beat neverending boards of 3/3s heh. Pogo Rogue player rage quit on me.