Funniest thing is that the most consistent counter to token druid doesn't run a single board clear.
Oh well, see you in a few days when you've found a new scapegoat to blame your lack of intelligence on, OP.
Exactly. AOE isn't the answer to everything.
What is it then? Taking more than 15 damage for leaving a few weak minions on board is okay?
The point is if you can field minions and trade, using something like consecration or fan of knives only occasionally, then you can win games. I tried out token druid, turns out rogues (who traditionally suck against wide boards) can often deal with your two minions on turn 2 and start fielding threats before you. Once they generate a source of damage to put pressure on you, then it's very tough to come back. Same goes for murlocs, or paladins. Sure, a druid can draw the perfect opener and consolidate their board, it's gonna happen. But if you sit back and do nothing, then they will hit soul of the forest at some point and you'll die. Unlike older versions of aggro druid, they don't ramp, and they don't draw as much, and they have very little defence.
Not all classes can do this at the same time. If something does not change in the near future, people will only play classes and decks that can do just that. It takes away diversity.
Both Lackey Rogue and Token Druid are top tier, and have only few unfavourable matchups, but Rogue seems to be much more frequent in the meta.
So why Druid only?
I am pretty certain the reason is because he lost to Druid and not to Rogue.
@topic:Firstly, I am aware that some decks or cards need fixing and I am also fine with almost all nerfs Blizzard carried out, even if I thought they where superfluous. And I can absolutely understand where all these nerf proposals come from. I am not immune to rage inducing losses against decks I hate and I more than once called my opponents cheap netdecking brainless whatevers. In particular, when I try to make a new deck idea work and get beaten over and over again.
But I know that it is inavitable that there are Tier 1 decks. And they are Tier 1 for the exact reason that they are better than other decks. So after a short time I calm down and try to improve the deck or dismiss it. But the reason I try to build a deck is that I want to win with it, i.e. in best case I create myself a Tier 1 deck.
I mean that is likely the goal of most deckbuilders. And therefore I think that most complaints that another deck is unbeatable are just a different way of saying "I want to win myself", otherwise there would be no reason to complain. So in the end, the complaint is merely that the own deck doesn't have the Tier 1 place of the hated deck.
I am thankful that you understand what this tread is about. I believe Token Druid is one of the decks that needs a fix before it goes out of hand. I would love to see a game with multiple Tier 1 Decks battling it out like rock, paper, scissors. I think that would be good for the game.
Both Lackey Rogue and Token Druid are top tier, and have only few unfavourable matchups, but Rogue seems to be much more frequent in the meta.
So why Druid only?
I am pretty certain the reason is because he lost to Druid and not to Rogue.
@topic:Firstly, I am aware that some decks or cards need fixing and I am also fine with almost all nerfs Blizzard carried out, even if I thought they where superfluous. And I can absolutely understand where all these nerf proposals come from. I am not immune to rage inducing losses against decks I hate and I more than once called my opponents cheap netdecking brainless whatevers. In particular, when I try to make a new deck idea work and get beaten over and over again.
But I know that it is inavitable that there are Tier 1 decks. And they are Tier 1 for the exact reason that they are better than other decks. So after a short time I calm down and try to improve the deck or dismiss it. But the reason I try to build a deck is that I want to win with it, i.e. in best case I create myself a Tier 1 deck.
I mean that is likely the goal of most deckbuilders. And therefore I think that most complaints that another deck is unbeatable are just a different way of saying "I want to win myself", otherwise there would be no reason to complain. So in the end, the complaint is merely that the own deck doesn't have the Tier 1 place of the hated deck.
I am thankful that you understand what this tread is about. I believe Token Druid is one of the decks that needs a fix before it goes out of hand. I would love to see a game with multiple Tier 1 Decks battling it out like rock, paper, scissors. I think that would be good for the game.
There we disagree. I don't think Token Druid needs a fix. At least not yet. The meta is still new and still in change. I consider the call for nerfs premature. But I also wouldn't have a big issue with nerfs. It wouldn't change anything since there would just be another king of the hill people will complain about.
And rock/paper/scissors is not really healthy. Knowing who wins just because you can see the decks gets boring pretty quick. Favored winrates of the high Tier decks? Yes please. Highly polarized winrates of the top decks? Better not.
The deck overrunns you if you are A not faster or B have build a counterdeck. So it smells a bit toxic ....
Muloc shaman seems to overrun it. I tried it and it floods the board repeately that it feels it´s even more then the druid and you have Murloc leaders .... Often more then two. Token druid feels easier to play so ...
the meta feels speedy. even the mages just slay you fast with an early big board .... Yes there is control warrior which seems the only stable control deck to hold against it.
Well, what is Druid going to do otherwise? They gutted combo then they gutted ramp. Do you want Druid to just flat out suck? Like, I get it, tokens and sticky minions are annoying. But again, what else are they going to do? They made it so Druid sucks otherwise, so tokens it is. And lets not imagine this is a recent "problem" token druid has been a thing since the dawn of Hearthstone. It's often complained about early in expansions because everyone is playing the greediest decks, which obviously aggressive decks and sticky minion decks punish. This is not new, at all. I guess that's why I'm defending token druid (and I don't even play it, I have no vested interest in defending it, I just don't want to see Druid disappear for another expansion).
I will tell you.
Token Druid is an deck archetype that has been around for a very long time, it's part of the class identity. What i'm trying to say is that the deck gets away with thing it shouldn't. Maybe a once per turn clause on spells like Savage Roar and Bloodlust is the way to prevent high extremely high burst damage in 1 Turn? Maybe make Soul of the Forest only give the Deathrattle to less minions could also help to turn down the power of the archetype without destroying it completely? I want the deck to still be around, just turned down in power to encourage people to play different decks.
Token Druid is not the only way to play Druid. Heal Druid is very new and is a deck i could see getting more support in the future. I have also seen some Malygos Druid decks running around. Like many people are saying, the expansion is still pretty new, so another Druid deck type might be right in front of us, but we don't see it.
If it was that easy why is Token Druid at close to 60% Win rate?
Because if you put many cards in your deck to counter token druid make it bad vs anything else (except maybe zoo warlock) and only 1 or 2 techs is not enough for so much board refil.
You are asking why people are okay with this when YOU think it's an issue. IDK how long you have been playing this game, but I have.. along with many others.. been playing since Beta. I can promise you, this deck, like all decks comes and goes. It isn't a big deal. At this point it is near impossible for Hearthstone to create content and still keep all classes relevant in each meta cycle. Right now it's Druids turn. Either play Druid, counter druid, or wait for meta to shift. Don't like that? You probably shouldn't be playing a CCG.
Enjoy everyone else. I'm having a lot of fun trying all sorts of decks, regardless of win/loss.
I'm not the only one. I created this tread when is saw many others feeling the same way i did. I read that you have been around for a long time, then you should know why thing like this goes out of control. Do i have to remind you of decks in the past? All i'm saying i that if we can prevent history from repeating itself, the game can become even better.
Hi, my name is Bomb Warrior. Everyone hated me when I was in the meta for 5 days. Now this is my friend, Token Druid. Token Druid is a stupid aggro deck, like me. Everyone hates us because we SMOrc. Token Druid would like to talk to you:
"Hi. You asked me if there are enough board clears/removal. I have been fucked to many times by warrior with Warpath, Brawl, Omega Devastator, Execute, Dr. Boom's hero powers, and Dyn-o-matic. You hate me. Sure I'm fine with that. I bet you hated Odd Paladin, Undertaker Hunter, Pre-nerf Quest Rogue, Spell Hunter, OTK Priest, and pretty much every deck with >50% winrate. I would say go to the salt thread but I'm not one of those people."
Deal with it mate. Or just play any control deck.
So you say we shouldn't deal with the problem and just play Control Warrior. I hope you are not serious.
Don't worry OP, if Blizzard decided to nerf Bomb Warrior, Token Druid or anything else, all these apologists would congratulate Blizzard on the nerfs regardless. It's cyclical.
People will cry over anything, even their own fun decks.
Don't worry crybabies, if Blizzard decided to nerf every thing we asked for, we can still find new things to whine over, its stupid.
Right. I hope we don't see you praising Blizzard when the nerf hammer lands, regardless of what it hits :)
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Both Lackey Rogue and Token Druid are top tier, and have only few unfavourable matchups, but Rogue seems to be much more frequent in the meta.
So why Druid only?
I am pretty certain the reason is because he lost to Druid and not to Rogue.
@topic:Firstly, I am aware that some decks or cards need fixing and I am also fine with almost all nerfs Blizzard carried out, even if I thought they where superfluous. And I can absolutely understand where all these nerf proposals come from. I am not immune to rage inducing losses against decks I hate and I more than once called my opponents cheap netdecking brainless whatevers. In particular, when I try to make a new deck idea work and get beaten over and over again.
But I know that it is inavitable that there are Tier 1 decks. And they are Tier 1 for the exact reason that they are better than other decks. So after a short time I calm down and try to improve the deck or dismiss it. But the reason I try to build a deck is that I want to win with it, i.e. in best case I create myself a Tier 1 deck.
I mean that is likely the goal of most deckbuilders. And therefore I think that most complaints that another deck is unbeatable are just a different way of saying "I want to win myself", otherwise there would be no reason to complain. So in the end, the complaint is merely that the own deck doesn't have the Tier 1 place of the hated deck.
I am thankful that you understand what this tread is about. I believe Token Druid is one of the decks that needs a fix before it goes out of hand. I would love to see a game with multiple Tier 1 Decks battling it out like rock, paper, scissors. I think that would be good for the game.
There we disagree. I don't think Token Druid needs a fix. At least not yet. The meta is still new and still in change. I consider the call for nerfs premature. But I also wouldn't have a big issue with nerfs. It wouldn't change anything since there would just be another king of the hill people will complain about.
And rock/paper/scissors is not really healthy. Knowing who wins just because you can see the decks gets boring pretty quick. Favored winrates of the high Tier decks? Yes please. Highly polarized winrates of the top decks? Better not.
Maybe rock/paper/scissors was the wrong way to put it, i just think that a meta game with many viable decks would make the game more fun for everyone.
I beat token druid consistently with midrange hunter (not the meta version on HSReplay), but I can think of a few reasons why it's getting defended:
It's not broken. It has a win rate that's within 3% of the next 7 or 8 decks beneath it. It has counters that are viable and part of those 7 or 8 other decks. It's been 1 week since the new expansion dropped.
There's no reason to cry wolf here. It's a strong deck in a meta game that's far from being fully formed. We need at least 1-2 weeks more before we start declaring a 55% win rate deck unfair.
One would assume that people would be defending Token Druid because they like the deck and don't see anything wrong with it; and therefore when people whine about it, they see this as something that should be countered. At least, that's just my guess, anyway....
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Not all classes can do this at the same time. If something does not change in the near future, people will only play classes and decks that can do just that. It takes away diversity.
If it was that easy why is Token Druid at close to 60% Win rate?
My guess is that there's a big difference between knowing (possible) tech cards and actually using them?
I don't know man, be the change you want to see in the world, i guess?
I am thankful that you understand what this tread is about. I believe Token Druid is one of the decks that needs a fix before it goes out of hand. I would love to see a game with multiple Tier 1 Decks battling it out like rock, paper, scissors. I think that would be good for the game.
That is also a problem with the deck, it rewards the user way to much. When a deck gets to this point, something is wrong.
There we disagree. I don't think Token Druid needs a fix. At least not yet. The meta is still new and still in change. I consider the call for nerfs premature. But I also wouldn't have a big issue with nerfs. It wouldn't change anything since there would just be another king of the hill people will complain about.
And rock/paper/scissors is not really healthy. Knowing who wins just because you can see the decks gets boring pretty quick. Favored winrates of the high Tier decks? Yes please. Highly polarized winrates of the top decks? Better not.
The deck overrunns you if you are A not faster or B have build a counterdeck. So it smells a bit toxic ....
Muloc shaman seems to overrun it. I tried it and it floods the board repeately that it feels it´s even more then the druid and you have Murloc leaders .... Often more then two. Token druid feels easier to play so ...
the meta feels speedy. even the mages just slay you fast with an early big board .... Yes there is control warrior which seems the only stable control deck to hold against it.
I will tell you.
Token Druid is an deck archetype that has been around for a very long time, it's part of the class identity. What i'm trying to say is that the deck gets away with thing it shouldn't. Maybe a once per turn clause on spells like Savage Roar and Bloodlust is the way to prevent high extremely high burst damage in 1 Turn? Maybe make Soul of the Forest only give the Deathrattle to less minions could also help to turn down the power of the archetype without destroying it completely? I want the deck to still be around, just turned down in power to encourage people to play different decks.
Token Druid is not the only way to play Druid. Heal Druid is very new and is a deck i could see getting more support in the future. I have also seen some Malygos Druid decks running around. Like many people are saying, the expansion is still pretty new, so another Druid deck type might be right in front of us, but we don't see it.
Because if you put many cards in your deck to counter token druid make it bad vs anything else (except maybe zoo warlock) and only 1 or 2 techs is not enough for so much board refil.
I'm not the only one. I created this tread when is saw many others feeling the same way i did. I read that you have been around for a long time, then you should know why thing like this goes out of control. Do i have to remind you of decks in the past? All i'm saying i that if we can prevent history from repeating itself, the game can become even better.
So you say we shouldn't deal with the problem and just play Control Warrior. I hope you are not serious.
Right. I hope we don't see you praising Blizzard when the nerf hammer lands, regardless of what it hits :)
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
"One man can only do so much"
Maybe rock/paper/scissors was the wrong way to put it, i just think that a meta game with many viable decks would make the game more fun for everyone.
I beat token druid consistently with midrange hunter (not the meta version on HSReplay), but I can think of a few reasons why it's getting defended:
It's not broken.
It has a win rate that's within 3% of the next 7 or 8 decks beneath it.
It has counters that are viable and part of those 7 or 8 other decks.
It's been 1 week since the new expansion dropped.
There's no reason to cry wolf here. It's a strong deck in a meta game that's far from being fully formed. We need at least 1-2 weeks more before we start declaring a 55% win rate deck unfair.
Token druid crumbles when you can consistently undermine those little tokens by clearing them over and over. That burst potential doesn't mean anything when they don't have any minions on board to capitalize on it. Hunter alone (the "me go face, no trade" class) has Rapid Shot, Unleash the Beast, Headhunter's Hatchet, Springpaw, Shimmerfly, Unleash the Hounds, Marked Shot, Baited Arrow, and Zul'jin to completely dominate this supposed broken deck.
Get token druid to trade more than go face and you're already winning.
Best of luck!
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
I am a token druid player and it is the scumiest deck in the meta
^ Token Druid ^
Why wouldn't you play Zoolock, seems to be a good counter against token Druid, isn't it ?
One would assume that people would be defending Token Druid because they like the deck and don't see anything wrong with it; and therefore when people whine about it, they see this as something that should be countered.
At least, that's just my guess, anyway....