• 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from beppe946 >>

    Yo mr Token Druid is so OP, where are you now?

    Still crying?

     Oh i'm still here, don't worry. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from Dunscot >>
    Quote from Eddan >>

     You say it's hard to accomplish having two minions on board, i would have agree on this if we where talking about an entirely different deck. You either ignore or have forgotten about the cards in Token Druid that makes filling the board with multiple minions easy. Acornbearer, Dreamway Guardians, Landscaping, Whispering Woods and The Forest' Aid. With all these ways to fill the board with minions, limited amount of removal for most classes, there is a high chance something will eventually stick. Add Soul of The Forest and the opposing player will have an even harder way to clear the board. Look to my previous comment and you realize doing more than 10 damage for less than 10 Mana is very easy to accomplish for the deck. 

    The reason why the deck wasn't so prevalent earlier, was because the tools to deal with the deck was there, now there is a lot less of it. The easiest way to not let this deck become oppressive and overpopulated, would be to not reward this play style so much and let them work for it more, this can be achieved by turning down the power level of the deck a bit. I have no wish to kill the deck, it's part of the Druid class identity, used to play Combo Druid in the past and some elements are shared between them. 

     

     

    I know what cards are in the deck and what the deck is capable of. But I'm not living in dreamland where everything works out according to plan every single game.

    You, on the other hand, list all the strengths and pretend there are zero flaws and weaknesses in the deck. Druid has plenty of cards that summon two and more minions and a bunch of cards that do exactly nothing without minions. And the minions are not very threatening on their own. Playing minions with buffs takes 4 mana and more. There is some snowball potential, but you need a good draw for it.

    While the deck is solid, there is a fair chance for dead or underwhelming turns, and falling behind is a serious issue, since your minions are weak without any other qualities. Even if you can get 10 damage in, your opponent still starts with 30 health. And while it can be done for comparatively little amounts of mana, it is unlikely to happen early in the game and isn't even aimed for. Against Control Decks, Token Druid has a lot of fuel, but it needs time for it that faster decks oftentimes don't allow for.

    As for "oppressive and overpopulated": It's Hearthstone. There is almost always a deck at 15%+ playrate, and it's always a very good deck that beats many others. That's how the game works and all the balacing in the world won't change that. But even if I were to agree with you and say that for some arbitrary reason Token Druid should not and never become the best or most popular deck in the game instead of some other deck: It's not even that. It is a good or very good deck, yes. But neither is it too widespread, nor is it too strong. It has a very good matchup spread, a solid winrate, and it's decently popular, but it's not soulcrushingly unfair or way too dominant in any regard. And I can only repeat myself: This is week 2! And it's the first expansion of the year!

    You just pointed out that a good deck is a good deck, but I still can't see why this is such a big threat that everyone should share your concern and Team5 should step in. Sidenote: Neither do I think they should nerf Tempo Rogue or Bomb Warrior or whatever. I think people should calm down and see where it goes. Patches was in 30-40% of all decks, all with the same playstyle, for over a year. I'm not saying that this is the level of tolerance we should go with, but TWO WEEKS of Token Druid, with it not even being the most powerful or popular deck, that may or may not continue to exist for 4 months before another expansion possibly, even likely brings another meta, is REALLY not the kind of thing people should get outrageous about.

    Your reasoning doesn't really go beyond "it's a powerful deck with potentially unfair mechanics" which goes for just about every single powerful deck in Hearthstone history and is nothing outstanding, not even in this Standard meta. Honestly, I've seen worse. For the unfairness of it's mechanic: it isn't new, it isn't of unparalleled quality, and it isn't even the biggest offender, not by a long shot.

    No offense, but I really, genuinely, think your whole "This deck is problematic and should be addessed ASAP" is not warranted. Not in this case, not at this point. And nothing you said so far has even made me consider you could have a point.

     If you knew, why were you saying it in such a way i thought so? I'm sure im not the only one who got a bit confused the first time they read that.

    Why wouldn't i? I want to get my point across. When you use one card to summon multiple minions in one turn, those small and weak minions get scary. Due to a small amount of removal for each class and the many ways to fill the board for Token Druid, you get to combine your minions with buffs eventually and when you do, you get an even stronger board presence. The deck is not so reliant on good draws like some decks, eventually something sticks and get's buffed. It's kinda how it goes.

    "Falling behind is a serious issue for most deck" Isn't that the case for most deck? 

    Who said that damage had to hit a hero? It could be directed to minions on the opposite board. Many deck need time to recover from a board wipe, Token druid can gather a similar board most likely on the next turn. Some Token Druid players i have seen don't often overextend so much that they don't have a backup plan.

    15% you say, i had a quite a lot higher number in mind. I think you are too kind to the game when you say "all the balancing in the world won't change that". You balance a game to balance a game, if you haven't successfully balanced the game, you haven't balanced the game, only adjusted it. The deck is successful, rewarding, fast and more importantly cheap. Those with small wallets would at least try to play this and if they like it, they will still play the deck. The whole mechanic the deck has going for it is powerful now and has high potential to be even more powerful. People like to win and if they can do it without spending too much money, that's even better. It might not be there now but it's likely it will get there eventually due to how cheap and effective it already is. Already week 2? Doesn't stop the deck from getting even stronger.  

    Does losing in the early turns sound good too you? Does losing from full hp sound good too you? Does cleaning there massive board, only for them to it all over again feel good too you? Want me to go on? You don't think other decks need some adjustments? So we should let it burn before we do something? If history has taught us anything, i and many others can't agree on what you are saying right now.

    I can agree on that the deck is not number 1 yet, but Savage Roar and cards like Power of the Wild makes the mechanic powerful now, but could be even more so. 

    I'm sad i can't reach you.

     

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from Shadowrisen >>

    For those of you who keep saying "there isn't enough AOE", know that there is no relevance to that comment.

    I can guarantee you that when the devs were balancing the token mechanics, it had much less to do with AOEs and much more to do with available minions and how the trades tend to work out.  If you are playing a deck that is so control-heavy and minion-lite, that is your willful decision.  Let me illustrate:

    Let's imagine a guy has just pulled the dreaded turn 8 play:  Wisps plus Soul of the Forest (7 wisps).  So, if you don't kill any of them, one Savage Roar will result in 24 damage (with HP).  One Blessing of Ancients will result in 22 damage.  One of each will result in 37 damage (can't afford hero power).

    Now, let's look at how those numbers can be affected.  For every one minion that you can both kill and kill the 2/2 treant resulting from deathrattle, the damage is reduced by (3/3/5) from original numbers.  For every one taunt minion over 3 health, you reduce (6/4 or 6/5 or 8 or 10).  The "or"s depend on the health of the creature and whether or not the hero attack will be enough to kill the taunt.  If you have a single AOE that does 2 or more damage to creatures, you have only to be able to kill a 1/1 in order to reduce by (3/3/5).

    So, it's important to note that we are evaluating very nearly the best possible situations for the Token Druid.  In order for this situation to be relevant, the deck has to being turn 8 with Wisps and SotF in hand, as well as 7 other cards.  Please note that two Savage Roar AND one Blessing is possible Turn 9, for a whopping 44 damage, but it is important to remember that most decks have the unbeatable draw.  If you let them get to turn 9 with that many resources in hand, you were either playing way too slow a deck, or the God draw had been found.  The odds of all of these cards turning up in the same 9 turns, AND you not having the ability to end the game before that are very small.

    The ability to generate multiple creatures quickly sacrifices the efficiency of most of those creatures.  This means one very simple thing:  You need to adjust your deck to play smaller creatures that make an appearance on the board faster.  A single Sunfury Protector, not even considering the taunt, can draw out two dryads and a hero power itself.

    So far, the only decks I've played that have a material problem with Token Druid are Big Shaman and the Res Priest.  Summoner Mage is not a great matchup, but it seems like for every game I've gotten Roared out, I've double Called a Mountain Giant on turn 5 and auto won myself.  These decks are deliberate gimmicks, and that's their own problem.  Most of the higher tier decks are farming Token Druid fairly well.

    Of all the comments in this thread, the ones that baffle me the most are those complaining about the Warrior matchup.  I went 24-0 before losing my first game as warrior to druid.  The warrior deck has an absolutely SAVAGE mix of efficient creatures and AOE clears.  I'm honestly having a hard time envisioning a better deck to farm druid with.  If you aren't having similar results, I have to guess that you're just building way too greedy.  Put some more creatures in and take your wins.

     A very convincing argument. But i don't see every deck having the space to tech this heavenly against Token Druid. One deck getting too much influence could hinder the way you make and choose to play decks. We can't let the game evolve into "Play this deck, or play a counter to this deck." I think that would hurt the game.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from user-18143276 >>

    Its not unreasonable. It gets shat on so hard by warrior. 

     Not very convincing argument i'm afraid, what if you are not playing Warrior i might ask? Should you give up?

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from ezlife >>

    well overall i think blizzard does a fine work nerfing cards, but the most importen thing here is that they nerf it 1 week before next expension which is stupid play from them. but yheaa, small india company

     They do some times, i just think the deck needs to questioned about what it can do and what could happen if it got stronger. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from KingSevault >>

    "I want to be able to beat any deck with any other deck, is that too much to ask?"

     Another silly misunderstanding. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from TheMessanJah >>

     

    This is a deck that deals very well with the Token Druid: try it!

    https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1270758-duid-anti-token

     I appreciate the gesture, but you are misunderstanding this thread. it's not about beating the deck, it's about questioning the deck and what its capable of.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from mostdeadlygeist >>

    My guess is they'll eventually HOF Savage Roar since it has been a problem for years. Anyone want to relive the charging treant days?

     I truly hope they don't resort to that. I would just hope they turn down the power of the card in some way. Maybe make it 4 Mana, maybe give it a once per turn clause or make it give a specific amount of minions the attack buff could make the card more fair to play against. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from GibreelFury >>
    Quote from TheFubar >>
    Quote from DMH_Meta >>

    the issue is there aint enough aoe in standard. believe it or not but the loss of defile dragon fury volcano etc left warrior being the only class of achieveing some control over aggro. token druid aint the issue

     Neutral-Doomsayer, Wild Pyromancer, Abomination, Dragonmaw Scorcher, Mossy Horror, Missile Launcher, Baron Geddon, Tunnel Blaster, Batterhead

    Druid- Swipe, Stafall

    Hunter- Explosive Trap, Unleash the Hounds

    Mage- Shooting Star, Arcane Explosion, Cone of Cold, Blast Wave, Blizzard, Flamestrike

    Paladin- Consecration, Equality, Shrink Ray, Avenging Wrath

    Priest- Circle of Healing, Mass Dispel, Holy Nova, Mass Hysteria

    Rogue- Fan of Knives, Vanish

    Shaman- Beakered Lightning, Lightning Storm, Hagatha's Scheme, Hagatha the Witch

    Warlock- Shriek, Hellfire, Shadowflame, Lord Godfrey, Twisting Nether

    There is plenty of AOE available.  Token druid is fine IMO.  Aggro decks need to exist and I don't see a reason why this particular one deserves a nerf currently.  It's existence isn't eliminating entire archetypes from the meta and even as a top deck it's win rate against the other top decks isn't out of line.  Like any strong deck, it will continue to punish unrefined lists and force other decks to adapt.

     You know that the problem of that archetype is the existence of soul of the forest and Savage roar, right? And I guess you also know that the problem when you're playing against this deck is that you keep on spending your whole turns merely postponing their win condition without ever having a shot at putting in place one of your own, do you?

     Thanks for putting it a way similarly to how i would, Token Druid has many ways to fill the board effectively, eventually something or some thing will stick, leading it to you taking a lot of damage in one turn. Not every deck runs all of this removal, they can't because it could hinder each decks effectiveness. You are also not guarantied to have these cards in hand when you need them and some times time is not on you side if you get low on Turn 5 because they drew well. For the sake of the future, some cards in Token Druid needs to be questioned on whenever they are too powerful or cost effective for what they do.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from GibreelFury >>

    By the way, let's repeat it one more time: the main problem with this deck is that it's fast, effective and, most important, CHEAP!!! Anybody can afford crafting it. Therefore it's everywhere! 

     

    Quote from GibreelFury >>

    By the way, let's repeat it one more time: the main problem with this deck is that it's fast, effective and, most important, CHEAP!!! Anybody can afford crafting it. Therefore it's everywhere! 

     Another reason why the deck needs to be questioned. Should this style of play be this effective and rewarding? Should every new deck being made be forced to adapt to ONE deck if this get's too popular? Should we be okay with any of this?

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from Dingding123 >>

    I mean, we basically are right now since most decks can't deal with 7 wisps/trees in one turn, every turn.

     That is one of the dangers with the deck, it has the potential to hinder deck creativity, and with stronger support in the future, this could get bad.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from Deck_Fiend >>
    Quote from GibreelFury >>

    By the way, let's repeat it one more time: the main problem with this deck is that it's fast, effective and, most important, CHEAP!!! Anybody can afford crafting it. Therefore it's everywhere! 

     that's a good thing though. just having the best decks be expensive is elitist. you can't have all the top decks being the most expensive things to craft as that would be completely unfair. 

    there needs to be decks everyone can build, that are good. 

    also like it's been mentioned about 300 f*cking times now, it has strong counters, it's not omnipotent in any sense.

     Can't say i agree fully here. There needs to be a balance here. The best decks being the most expensive would indeed be a bit elitist, pay to win, but it would be fair to those who have spent a fair bit of money on the game. A cheap deck doing extremely well could also be a problem. It could hinder creativity and variation, why spend money and time, when i can just play this deck and win most of the time? 

    Both have really bad downsides, Token Druid has the potential to become that one deck if stronger deck lists get's made or the deck get's more support. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from DMH_Meta >>

    the issue is there aint enough aoe in standard. believe it or not but the loss of defile dragon fury volcano etc left warrior being the only class of achieveing some control over aggro. token druid aint the issue

     THAT is one of the reasons why that deck needs to be cheeped an close eye on. Wouldn't it when be appropriate and fair if as many classes as possible were given at least a fighting chance to combat this? A small nerf could possible even things out.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from Eddan >>
    Quote from Rkaah >>

    You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard.
    I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

    I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.

     Why can't people see this on a grander scale then "I don't like the deck, i want it to burn", That was not the meaning behind the thread. This thread was made to question the deck, what its capable of and if it's good for the game. Is the amount of damage the deck can do in one turn with a low amount of cards reasonable or not? Is one of the biggest questions i want a discussion about. So many people misunderstand this.  I don't care if the deck is not the best, it's only important to analyze if this strategy is fair or not as things are right now. Could you imagine if something like this is not kept in cheek for the future? It would hurt the game. I hope you understand what i'm after a little bit better now.

    Ever consider that the deck, oh idk, keeps really oppressive control decks from dominating the meta in a world lacking Token Druid?

    You guys never learn. 

    Back during Jade Druid days you wanted Jade Druid nerfed because it was too oppressive. Well, then when it was nerfed you got Razakus Priest and realized that by axing the old top dog you got a new one. So what did you do? Complain about that, just to get Tempo Rogue. So you guys complained about that, not realizing that every time you complained about a deck you didn't like you just got another powerhouse deck. There is potential for the same to happen with super greedy decks if consistent aggressive decks don't exist in the meta.

    Also, determining if a deck's strategy is fair or not when standard is at its smallest possible card pool size is a pretty bad goal. You can't really determine if a deck is too powerful or not when whole classes are gimped because they lost out on the first expansion of the new year. You wouldn't get an accurate picture.

     I do know about this, but one must ask "At what cost?"

    So what if Token Druid got nerfed, could not other aggro decks possibly do the same? Like Murloc Shaman and Zoo? Or maybe an whole new deck comes around and helps keeping oppressive control decks in cheek?

    Or imagine this other scenario:

    Nothing happens to Token Druid. Druid get's more cards that pushes it towards Token as the best way to play the class, other classes gets no reliable removal or minions to help combat decks similar to this (Weak Taunt minions, weaker minions etc). The deck kills you faster, it's win rate increases and makes other decks unviable because of how popular it has become. So you become forced to play the deck yourself or play a so called counter to the deck if you wanna win. Would that be a fun and balanced game? But what if this could be prevented, what if we could highlight the dangers of the deck before this happens? Wouldn't that be great?

    Witch one of these scenarios would be the best for the game and it's player base?

     

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Why are people defending Token Druid?
    Quote from Rkaah >>

    You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard.
    I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

    I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.

     Why can't people see this on a grander scale then "I don't like the deck, i want it to burn", That was not the meaning behind the thread. This thread was made to question the deck, what its capable of and if it's good for the game. Is the amount of damage the deck can do in one turn with a low amount of cards reasonable or not? Is one of the biggest questions i want a discussion about. So many people misunderstand this.  I don't care if the deck is not the best, it's only important to analyze if this strategy is fair or not as things are right now. Could you imagine if something like this is not kept in cheek for the future? It would hurt the game. I hope you understand what i'm after a little bit better now.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • To post a comment, please login or register a new account.