A poor comparison. A Rogue needs these specific card in there hand to pull this exact combo of effectively. Token Druid can do damage similar to this when combined with a small amount of Token already on the board. They have have 2 Tokens with 2 attack each on the board, they have Savage Roar in the hand, that's 10 damage just like that. Are you seeing what i'm getting at? This is with the lowest amount of effort possible. The better the deck, the better the player, the more damage you take in one turn from no wear. Would it feel good for the other player lose that much health because they could not clear 2 Tokens with no removal in hand, or taunt on the field?
These things need to be questioned, and how people can be okay with it.
Having two minions on the board is not nothing, and harder to accomplish than it might sound. Not to mention that Taunts can get in the way. And more importantly, it is the only source of burst damage (besides Swipe maybe) Druid has access to. It is indeed a poor comparison to Rogue's burst potential, since Rogue has many more ways to push for damage and has a more solid gameplan than just relying on a specific board state. You make it sound like Savage Roar is a 3 mana Pyroblast, which it really isn't. Especially not, since Force of Nature was nerfed.
Savage Roar is only really playable in decks that try to get many minions on the board. What seems oh-so-unfair to you is actually a fairly situational win condition, tied to a strategy that oftentimes had no chance in the meta.
Your only real point here is that Druid is relatively good right now at filling the board and thus more likely to win games with SR. But this has less to do with the deck being too good, and more with the other classes being not good enough at countering it. Standard has the least possible amount of board clears and Taunt minions right now, and this will likely change next expansion. I think it is more likely that Token Druid will get weaker over time, than stronger.
Remember Journey to Un'Goro? Back then, Token Druid was very strong and popular as well, thanks to Living Mana and the super strong Mark of the Lotus, and the fact that Patches the Pirate was a "free" minion. In Frozen Throne, Token Druid was a lot less popular already, and by K&C it was pretty much dead. While it was still a decent deck, other decks just got more support and more answers to it. Just shows you how fragile this strategy really is.
Right now, it's really all the same, except for the fact that were are just one week into the new expansion. Even if Token Druid survives the experimental phase before the meta settles down, which I wouldn't bet on, it could look at lot worse by next expansion already. And for fast actions, it is nowhere near as oppressive right now as some other decks that warranted this kind of intervention, like Quest Rogue in JTU or Jade Druid in KFT, which were entirely shutting down most other decks in the game.
You say it's hard to accomplish having two minions on board, i would have agree on this if we where talking about an entirely different deck. You either ignore or have forgotten about the cards in Token Druid that makes filling the board with multiple minions easy. Acornbearer, Dreamway Guardians, Landscaping, Whispering Woods and The Forest' Aid. With all these ways to fill the board with minions, limited amount of removal for most classes, there is a high chance something will eventually stick. Add Soul of The Forest and the opposing player will have an even harder way to clear the board. Look to my previous comment and you realize doing more than 10 damage for less than 10 Mana is very easy to accomplish for the deck.
The reason why the deck wasn't so prevalent earlier, was because the tools to deal with the deck was there, now there is a lot less of it. The easiest way to not let this deck become oppressive and overpopulated, would be to not reward this play style so much and let them work for it more, this can be achieved by turning down the power level of the deck a bit. I have no wish to kill the deck, it's part of the Druid class identity, used to play Combo Druid in the past and some elements are shared between them.
You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard. I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.
I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.
You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard. I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.
I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.
Why can't people see this on a grander scale then "I don't like the deck, i want it to burn", That was not the meaning behind the thread. This thread was made to question the deck, what its capable of and if it's good for the game. Is the amount of damage the deck can do in one turn with a low amount of cards reasonable or not? Is one of the biggest questions i want a discussion about. So many people misunderstand this. I don't care if the deck is not the best, it's only important to analyze if this strategy is fair or not as things are right now. Could you imagine if something like this is not kept in cheek for the future? It would hurt the game. I hope you understand what i'm after a little bit better now.
You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard. I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.
I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.
Why can't people see this on a grander scale then "I don't like the deck, i want it to burn", That was not the meaning behind the thread. This thread was made to question the deck, what its capable of and if it's good for the game. Is the amount of damage the deck can do in one turn with a low amount of cards reasonable or not? Is one of the biggest questions i want a discussion about. So many people misunderstand this. I don't care if the deck is not the best, it's only important to analyze if this strategy is fair or not as things are right now. Could you imagine if something like this is not kept in cheek for the future? It would hurt the game. I hope you understand what i'm after a little bit better now.
Ever consider that the deck, oh idk, keeps really oppressive control decks from dominating the meta in a world lacking Token Druid?
You guys never learn.
Back during Jade Druid days you wanted Jade Druid nerfed because it was too oppressive. Well, then when it was nerfed you got Razakus Priest and realized that by axing the old top dog you got a new one. So what did you do? Complain about that, just to get Tempo Rogue. So you guys complained about that, not realizing that every time you complained about a deck you didn't like you just got another powerhouse deck. There is potential for the same to happen with super greedy decks if consistent aggressive decks don't exist in the meta.
Also, determining if a deck's strategy is fair or not when standard is at its smallest possible card pool size is a pretty bad goal. You can't really determine if a deck is too powerful or not when whole classes are gimped because they lost out on the first expansion of the new year. You wouldn't get an accurate picture.
You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard. I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.
I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.
Why can't people see this on a grander scale then "I don't like the deck, i want it to burn", That was not the meaning behind the thread. This thread was made to question the deck, what its capable of and if it's good for the game. Is the amount of damage the deck can do in one turn with a low amount of cards reasonable or not? Is one of the biggest questions i want a discussion about. So many people misunderstand this. I don't care if the deck is not the best, it's only important to analyze if this strategy is fair or not as things are right now. Could you imagine if something like this is not kept in cheek for the future? It would hurt the game. I hope you understand what i'm after a little bit better now.
Ever consider that the deck, oh idk, keeps really oppressive control decks from dominating the meta in a world lacking Token Druid?
You guys never learn.
Back during Jade Druid days you wanted Jade Druid nerfed because it was too oppressive. Well, then when it was nerfed you got Razakus Priest and realized that by axing the old top dog you got a new one. So what did you do? Complain about that, just to get Tempo Rogue. So you guys complained about that, not realizing that every time you complained about a deck you didn't like you just got another powerhouse deck. There is potential for the same to happen with super greedy decks if consistent aggressive decks don't exist in the meta.
Also, determining if a deck's strategy is fair or not when standard is at its smallest possible card pool size is a pretty bad goal. You can't really determine if a deck is too powerful or not when whole classes are gimped because they lost out on the first expansion of the new year. You wouldn't get an accurate picture.
I do know about this, but one must ask "At what cost?"
So what if Token Druid got nerfed, could not other aggro decks possibly do the same? Like Murloc Shaman and Zoo? Or maybe an whole new deck comes around and helps keeping oppressive control decks in cheek?
Or imagine this other scenario:
Nothing happens to Token Druid. Druid get's more cards that pushes it towards Token as the best way to play the class, other classes gets no reliable removal or minions to help combat decks similar to this (Weak Taunt minions, weaker minions etc). The deck kills you faster, it's win rate increases and makes other decks unviable because of how popular it has become. So you become forced to play the deck yourself or play a so called counter to the deck if you wanna win. Would that be a fun and balanced game? But what if this could be prevented, what if we could highlight the dangers of the deck before this happens? Wouldn't that be great?
Witch one of these scenarios would be the best for the game and it's player base?
the issue is there aint enough aoe in standard. believe it or not but the loss of defile dragon fury volcano etc left warrior being the only class of achieveing some control over aggro. token druid aint the issue
the issue is there aint enough aoe in standard. believe it or not but the loss of defile dragon fury volcano etc left warrior being the only class of achieveing some control over aggro. token druid aint the issue
THAT is one of the reasons why that deck needs to be cheeped an close eye on. Wouldn't it when be appropriate and fair if as many classes as possible were given at least a fighting chance to combat this? A small nerf could possible even things out.
For those of you who keep saying "there isn't enough AOE", know that there is no relevance to that comment.
I can guarantee you that when the devs were balancing the token mechanics, it had much less to do with AOEs and much more to do with available minions and how the trades tend to work out. If you are playing a deck that is so control-heavy and minion-lite, that is your willful decision. Let me illustrate:
Let's imagine a guy has just pulled the dreaded turn 8 play: Wisps plus Soul of the Forest (7 wisps). So, if you don't kill any of them, one Savage Roar will result in 24 damage (with HP). One Blessing of Ancients will result in 22 damage. One of each will result in 37 damage (can't afford hero power).
Now, let's look at how those numbers can be affected. For every one minion that you can both kill and kill the 2/2 treant resulting from deathrattle, the damage is reduced by (3/3/5) from original numbers. For every one taunt minion over 3 health, you reduce (6/4 or 6/5 or 8 or 10). The "or"s depend on the health of the creature and whether or not the hero attack will be enough to kill the taunt. If you have a single AOE that does 2 or more damage to creatures, you have only to be able to kill a 1/1 in order to reduce by (3/3/5).
So, it's important to note that we are evaluating very nearly the best possible situations for the Token Druid. In order for this situation to be relevant, the deck has to being turn 8 with Wisps and SotF in hand, as well as 7 other cards. Please note that two Savage Roar AND one Blessing is possible Turn 9, for a whopping 44 damage, but it is important to remember that most decks have the unbeatable draw. If you let them get to turn 9 with that many resources in hand, you were either playing way too slow a deck, or the God draw had been found. The odds of all of these cards turning up in the same 9 turns, AND you not having the ability to end the game before that are very small.
The ability to generate multiple creatures quickly sacrifices the efficiency of most of those creatures. This means one very simple thing: You need to adjust your deck to play smaller creatures that make an appearance on the board faster. A single Sunfury Protector, not even considering the taunt, can draw out two dryads and a hero power itself.
So far, the only decks I've played that have a material problem with Token Druid are Big Shaman and the Res Priest. Summoner Mage is not a great matchup, but it seems like for every game I've gotten Roared out, I've double Called a Mountain Giant on turn 5 and auto won myself. These decks are deliberate gimmicks, and that's their own problem. Most of the higher tier decks are farming Token Druid fairly well.
Of all the comments in this thread, the ones that baffle me the most are those complaining about the Warrior matchup. I went 24-0 before losing my first game as warrior to druid. The warrior deck has an absolutely SAVAGE mix of efficient creatures and AOE clears. I'm honestly having a hard time envisioning a better deck to farm druid with. If you aren't having similar results, I have to guess that you're just building way too greedy. Put some more creatures in and take your wins.
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You say it's hard to accomplish having two minions on board, i would have agree on this if we where talking about an entirely different deck. You either ignore or have forgotten about the cards in Token Druid that makes filling the board with multiple minions easy. Acornbearer, Dreamway Guardians, Landscaping, Whispering Woods and The Forest' Aid. With all these ways to fill the board with minions, limited amount of removal for most classes, there is a high chance something will eventually stick. Add Soul of The Forest and the opposing player will have an even harder way to clear the board. Look to my previous comment and you realize doing more than 10 damage for less than 10 Mana is very easy to accomplish for the deck.
The reason why the deck wasn't so prevalent earlier, was because the tools to deal with the deck was there, now there is a lot less of it. The easiest way to not let this deck become oppressive and overpopulated, would be to not reward this play style so much and let them work for it more, this can be achieved by turning down the power level of the deck a bit. I have no wish to kill the deck, it's part of the Druid class identity, used to play Combo Druid in the past and some elements are shared between them.
I know what cards are in the deck and what the deck is capable of. But I'm not living in dreamland where everything works out according to plan every single game.
You, on the other hand, list all the strengths and pretend there are zero flaws and weaknesses in the deck. Druid has plenty of cards that summon two and more minions and a bunch of cards that do exactly nothing without minions. And the minions are not very threatening on their own. Playing minions with buffs takes 4 mana and more. There is some snowball potential, but you need a good draw for it.
While the deck is solid, there is a fair chance for dead or underwhelming turns, and falling behind is a serious issue, since your minions are weak without any other qualities. Even if you can get 10 damage in, your opponent still starts with 30 health. And while it can be done for comparatively little amounts of mana, it is unlikely to happen early in the game and isn't even aimed for. Against Control Decks, Token Druid has a lot of fuel, but it needs time for it that faster decks oftentimes don't allow for.
As for "oppressive and overpopulated": It's Hearthstone. There is almost always a deck at 15%+ playrate, and it's always a very good deck that beats many others. That's how the game works and all the balacing in the world won't change that. But even if I were to agree with you and say that for some arbitrary reason Token Druid should not and never become the best or most popular deck in the game instead of some other deck: It's not even that. It is a good or very good deck, yes. But neither is it too widespread, nor is it too strong. It has a very good matchup spread, a solid winrate, and it's decently popular, but it's not soulcrushingly unfair or way too dominant in any regard. And I can only repeat myself: This is week 2! And it's the first expansion of the year!
You just pointed out that a good deck is a good deck, but I still can't see why this is such a big threat that everyone should share your concern and Team5 should step in. Sidenote: Neither do I think they should nerf Tempo Rogue or Bomb Warrior or whatever. I think people should calm down and see where it goes. Patches was in 30-40% of all decks, all with the same playstyle, for over a year. I'm not saying that this is the level of tolerance we should go with, but TWO WEEKS of Token Druid, with it not even being the most powerful or popular deck, that may or may not continue to exist for 4 months before another expansion possibly, even likely brings another meta, is REALLY not the kind of thing people should get outrageous about.
Your reasoning doesn't really go beyond "it's a powerful deck with potentially unfair mechanics" which goes for just about every single powerful deck in Hearthstone history and is nothing outstanding, not even in this Standard meta. Honestly, I've seen worse. For the unfairness of it's mechanic: it isn't new, it isn't of unparalleled quality, and it isn't even the biggest offender, not by a long shot.
No offense, but I really, genuinely, think your whole "This deck is problematic and should be addessed ASAP" is not warranted. Not in this case, not at this point. And nothing you said so far has even made me consider you could have a point.
I am sure as hell not defending them. Every one always ask for f2p deck now it flooded the ladder with it. There is not one heavy dust card in that deck . I guess blizzard wants Druid to be King again. So good job community. Now deal with what you created.
You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard. I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.
I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.
Why can't people see this on a grander scale then "I don't like the deck, i want it to burn", That was not the meaning behind the thread. This thread was made to question the deck, what its capable of and if it's good for the game. Is the amount of damage the deck can do in one turn with a low amount of cards reasonable or not? Is one of the biggest questions i want a discussion about. So many people misunderstand this. I don't care if the deck is not the best, it's only important to analyze if this strategy is fair or not as things are right now. Could you imagine if something like this is not kept in cheek for the future? It would hurt the game. I hope you understand what i'm after a little bit better now.
Ever consider that the deck, oh idk, keeps really oppressive control decks from dominating the meta in a world lacking Token Druid?
You guys never learn.
Back during Jade Druid days you wanted Jade Druid nerfed because it was too oppressive. Well, then when it was nerfed you got Razakus Priest and realized that by axing the old top dog you got a new one. So what did you do? Complain about that, just to get Tempo Rogue. So you guys complained about that, not realizing that every time you complained about a deck you didn't like you just got another powerhouse deck. There is potential for the same to happen with super greedy decks if consistent aggressive decks don't exist in the meta.
Also, determining if a deck's strategy is fair or not when standard is at its smallest possible card pool size is a pretty bad goal. You can't really determine if a deck is too powerful or not when whole classes are gimped because they lost out on the first expansion of the new year. You wouldn't get an accurate picture.
I do know about this, but one must ask "At what cost?"
So what if Token Druid got nerfed, could not other aggro decks possibly do the same? Like Murloc Shaman and Zoo? Or maybe an whole new deck comes around and helps keeping oppressive control decks in cheek?
Or imagine this other scenario:
Nothing happens to Token Druid. Druid get's more cards that pushes it towards Token as the best way to play the class, other classes gets no reliable removal or minions to help combat decks similar to this (Weak Taunt minions, weaker minions etc). The deck kills you faster, it's win rate increases and makes other decks unviable because of how popular it has become. So you become forced to play the deck yourself or play a so called counter to the deck if you wanna win. Would that be a fun and balanced game? But what if this could be prevented, what if we could highlight the dangers of the deck before this happens? Wouldn't that be great?
Witch one of these scenarios would be the best for the game and it's player base?
Regardless of whether or not Token Druid even existed you would STILL be required to play one of the top decks in the meta, or their counters. This will never change. Please get these subjective fun arguments out of here.
See, the thing is that you and nobody else on here can really argue what is best for the players. I could easily ask you who you are trying to balance the game for. Control players? Ranked players? Casual? What about aggro players, midrange, combo, or OTK players? Just because some people don't like Token Druid or aggro in general that doesn't mean you represent a majority and, in fact, you have no objectives means of establishing evidence the majority of players are actually fine with the archtype. Personal taste for the game matters very little in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes slow decks win and are on top while other times they're bottom-feeding scum.
Anyway, I digress. Token Druid will get better, but it is naive to think that not a single new AoE will be introduce in the next expansion, which means slower decks will increase in effectiveness. What is annoying is this incessant persistence from control players that think their playstyle must always be on top and whenever they lose to ANYTHING (be it token-based aggro, be it OTKs, be it even value decks that run more greed & value than them) it must always be addressed as a problem in their eyes.
Get over yourself. You aren't owed nerfs because you lose to something, or because you have to play an overdone popular deck to beat something else. I will be forever maddened by this idea (which players still haven't learned after all of these years).
What I find funny is that it seems like the devs were trying to push a heal druid archetype with cards like Crystal Stag, Dreamway Guardians and Crystal Power. But the playerbase was like "Yeah why play heal druid when we can just kill other players faster with tokens." Do the devs even playtest the game?
I'm sure most of the people posting these type of threads are sitting at ranks 10-5. Instead of complaining I wish they'd spend as much time trying to get better at the game. Unless the majority of top pros are considering a deck or class oppressive then it probably isn't it's just a strong deck and you should be focusing on YOUR gameplay rather than asking for everyone to play a deck that's weaker than yours
Just by the responses the list of traits of Fanboyirencis Jarheads can be lengthened
6. Anyone thinking differently than they do are diagnosed with mental illness and referred to a doctor. #139
7. Critics of aggressive meta most be playing control. #140
sigh...
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
You say it's hard to accomplish having two minions on board, i would have agree on this if we where talking about an entirely different deck. You either ignore or have forgotten about the cards in Token Druid that makes filling the board with multiple minions easy. Acornbearer, Dreamway Guardians, Landscaping, Whispering Woods and The Forest' Aid. With all these ways to fill the board with minions, limited amount of removal for most classes, there is a high chance something will eventually stick. Add Soul of The Forest and the opposing player will have an even harder way to clear the board. Look to my previous comment and you realize doing more than 10 damage for less than 10 Mana is very easy to accomplish for the deck.
The reason why the deck wasn't so prevalent earlier, was because the tools to deal with the deck was there, now there is a lot less of it. The easiest way to not let this deck become oppressive and overpopulated, would be to not reward this play style so much and let them work for it more, this can be achieved by turning down the power level of the deck a bit. I have no wish to kill the deck, it's part of the Druid class identity, used to play Combo Druid in the past and some elements are shared between them.
Oh no a deck actually beats me. PepeHands
Thank god for token druid, i will only play this deck from now on, because this fckng game doesnt deserve anything else.
Best deck.
I like aggro anyway, but this DLC showed me that its the only and best option.
Its not unreasonable. It gets shat on so hard by warrior.
From now on, I promise only to defend decks you can beat.
You can't have all classes be relevant like "paper, rock, scissors" at this point. The amount of cards, combos, and tech make it super hard.
I don't think you've done any dev work in your life because it's simple to see and know that balancing a game at this scale isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.
I realize you don't like playing against this deck, but it isn't even the highest win rate atm. Believe it or not, the meta is pretty healthy. We have three classes in tier 1, 5 classes in tier 2 up, and 7 in tier 3 up. That isn't bad at all. Each deck also has unique play now that Odd and Even are rotated. It's a good time to play, enjoy the games man.
Why can't people see this on a grander scale then "I don't like the deck, i want it to burn", That was not the meaning behind the thread. This thread was made to question the deck, what its capable of and if it's good for the game. Is the amount of damage the deck can do in one turn with a low amount of cards reasonable or not? Is one of the biggest questions i want a discussion about. So many people misunderstand this. I don't care if the deck is not the best, it's only important to analyze if this strategy is fair or not as things are right now. Could you imagine if something like this is not kept in cheek for the future? It would hurt the game. I hope you understand what i'm after a little bit better now.
I think that it's very frustrating too - and I don't think that your argument is bad in any way. But token druid also have counters!
In legend people have begun to counter it with:
Control Warrior, Control Shaman, Hunter with unleash the hounds, Zoo Warlock and so on.
I think that it's mainly this good due to the meta being so unrefined :)
My brother and I both got legend - and he climbed to 316 with it. Check out our guide!
Ever consider that the deck, oh idk, keeps really oppressive control decks from dominating the meta in a world lacking Token Druid?
You guys never learn.
Back during Jade Druid days you wanted Jade Druid nerfed because it was too oppressive. Well, then when it was nerfed you got Razakus Priest and realized that by axing the old top dog you got a new one. So what did you do? Complain about that, just to get Tempo Rogue. So you guys complained about that, not realizing that every time you complained about a deck you didn't like you just got another powerhouse deck. There is potential for the same to happen with super greedy decks if consistent aggressive decks don't exist in the meta.
Also, determining if a deck's strategy is fair or not when standard is at its smallest possible card pool size is a pretty bad goal. You can't really determine if a deck is too powerful or not when whole classes are gimped because they lost out on the first expansion of the new year. You wouldn't get an accurate picture.
I do know about this, but one must ask "At what cost?"
So what if Token Druid got nerfed, could not other aggro decks possibly do the same? Like Murloc Shaman and Zoo? Or maybe an whole new deck comes around and helps keeping oppressive control decks in cheek?
Or imagine this other scenario:
Nothing happens to Token Druid. Druid get's more cards that pushes it towards Token as the best way to play the class, other classes gets no reliable removal or minions to help combat decks similar to this (Weak Taunt minions, weaker minions etc). The deck kills you faster, it's win rate increases and makes other decks unviable because of how popular it has become. So you become forced to play the deck yourself or play a so called counter to the deck if you wanna win. Would that be a fun and balanced game? But what if this could be prevented, what if we could highlight the dangers of the deck before this happens? Wouldn't that be great?
Witch one of these scenarios would be the best for the game and it's player base?
the issue is there aint enough aoe in standard. believe it or not but the loss of defile dragon fury volcano etc left warrior being the only class of achieveing some control over aggro. token druid aint the issue
THAT is one of the reasons why that deck needs to be cheeped an close eye on. Wouldn't it when be appropriate and fair if as many classes as possible were given at least a fighting chance to combat this? A small nerf could possible even things out.
For those of you who keep saying "there isn't enough AOE", know that there is no relevance to that comment.
I can guarantee you that when the devs were balancing the token mechanics, it had much less to do with AOEs and much more to do with available minions and how the trades tend to work out. If you are playing a deck that is so control-heavy and minion-lite, that is your willful decision. Let me illustrate:
Let's imagine a guy has just pulled the dreaded turn 8 play: Wisps plus Soul of the Forest (7 wisps). So, if you don't kill any of them, one Savage Roar will result in 24 damage (with HP). One Blessing of Ancients will result in 22 damage. One of each will result in 37 damage (can't afford hero power).
Now, let's look at how those numbers can be affected. For every one minion that you can both kill and kill the 2/2 treant resulting from deathrattle, the damage is reduced by (3/3/5) from original numbers. For every one taunt minion over 3 health, you reduce (6/4 or 6/5 or 8 or 10). The "or"s depend on the health of the creature and whether or not the hero attack will be enough to kill the taunt. If you have a single AOE that does 2 or more damage to creatures, you have only to be able to kill a 1/1 in order to reduce by (3/3/5).
So, it's important to note that we are evaluating very nearly the best possible situations for the Token Druid. In order for this situation to be relevant, the deck has to being turn 8 with Wisps and SotF in hand, as well as 7 other cards. Please note that two Savage Roar AND one Blessing is possible Turn 9, for a whopping 44 damage, but it is important to remember that most decks have the unbeatable draw. If you let them get to turn 9 with that many resources in hand, you were either playing way too slow a deck, or the God draw had been found. The odds of all of these cards turning up in the same 9 turns, AND you not having the ability to end the game before that are very small.
The ability to generate multiple creatures quickly sacrifices the efficiency of most of those creatures. This means one very simple thing: You need to adjust your deck to play smaller creatures that make an appearance on the board faster. A single Sunfury Protector, not even considering the taunt, can draw out two dryads and a hero power itself.
So far, the only decks I've played that have a material problem with Token Druid are Big Shaman and the Res Priest. Summoner Mage is not a great matchup, but it seems like for every game I've gotten Roared out, I've double Called a Mountain Giant on turn 5 and auto won myself. These decks are deliberate gimmicks, and that's their own problem. Most of the higher tier decks are farming Token Druid fairly well.
Of all the comments in this thread, the ones that baffle me the most are those complaining about the Warrior matchup. I went 24-0 before losing my first game as warrior to druid. The warrior deck has an absolutely SAVAGE mix of efficient creatures and AOE clears. I'm honestly having a hard time envisioning a better deck to farm druid with. If you aren't having similar results, I have to guess that you're just building way too greedy. Put some more creatures in and take your wins.
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I know what cards are in the deck and what the deck is capable of. But I'm not living in dreamland where everything works out according to plan every single game.
You, on the other hand, list all the strengths and pretend there are zero flaws and weaknesses in the deck. Druid has plenty of cards that summon two and more minions and a bunch of cards that do exactly nothing without minions. And the minions are not very threatening on their own. Playing minions with buffs takes 4 mana and more. There is some snowball potential, but you need a good draw for it.
While the deck is solid, there is a fair chance for dead or underwhelming turns, and falling behind is a serious issue, since your minions are weak without any other qualities. Even if you can get 10 damage in, your opponent still starts with 30 health. And while it can be done for comparatively little amounts of mana, it is unlikely to happen early in the game and isn't even aimed for. Against Control Decks, Token Druid has a lot of fuel, but it needs time for it that faster decks oftentimes don't allow for.
As for "oppressive and overpopulated": It's Hearthstone. There is almost always a deck at 15%+ playrate, and it's always a very good deck that beats many others. That's how the game works and all the balacing in the world won't change that. But even if I were to agree with you and say that for some arbitrary reason Token Druid should not and never become the best or most popular deck in the game instead of some other deck: It's not even that. It is a good or very good deck, yes. But neither is it too widespread, nor is it too strong. It has a very good matchup spread, a solid winrate, and it's decently popular, but it's not soulcrushingly unfair or way too dominant in any regard. And I can only repeat myself: This is week 2! And it's the first expansion of the year!
You just pointed out that a good deck is a good deck, but I still can't see why this is such a big threat that everyone should share your concern and Team5 should step in. Sidenote: Neither do I think they should nerf Tempo Rogue or Bomb Warrior or whatever. I think people should calm down and see where it goes. Patches was in 30-40% of all decks, all with the same playstyle, for over a year. I'm not saying that this is the level of tolerance we should go with, but TWO WEEKS of Token Druid, with it not even being the most powerful or popular deck, that may or may not continue to exist for 4 months before another expansion possibly, even likely brings another meta, is REALLY not the kind of thing people should get outrageous about.
Your reasoning doesn't really go beyond "it's a powerful deck with potentially unfair mechanics" which goes for just about every single powerful deck in Hearthstone history and is nothing outstanding, not even in this Standard meta. Honestly, I've seen worse. For the unfairness of it's mechanic: it isn't new, it isn't of unparalleled quality, and it isn't even the biggest offender, not by a long shot.
No offense, but I really, genuinely, think your whole "This deck is problematic and should be addessed ASAP" is not warranted. Not in this case, not at this point. And nothing you said so far has even made me consider you could have a point.
Hotel? Trivago
Garrosh did nothing wrong.
I am sure as hell not defending them. Every one always ask for f2p deck now it flooded the ladder with it. There is not one heavy dust card in that deck . I guess blizzard wants Druid to be King again. So good job community. Now deal with what you created.
Regardless of whether or not Token Druid even existed you would STILL be required to play one of the top decks in the meta, or their counters. This will never change. Please get these subjective fun arguments out of here.
See, the thing is that you and nobody else on here can really argue what is best for the players. I could easily ask you who you are trying to balance the game for. Control players? Ranked players? Casual? What about aggro players, midrange, combo, or OTK players? Just because some people don't like Token Druid or aggro in general that doesn't mean you represent a majority and, in fact, you have no objectives means of establishing evidence the majority of players are actually fine with the archtype. Personal taste for the game matters very little in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes slow decks win and are on top while other times they're bottom-feeding scum.
Anyway, I digress. Token Druid will get better, but it is naive to think that not a single new AoE will be introduce in the next expansion, which means slower decks will increase in effectiveness. What is annoying is this incessant persistence from control players that think their playstyle must always be on top and whenever they lose to ANYTHING (be it token-based aggro, be it OTKs, be it even value decks that run more greed & value than them) it must always be addressed as a problem in their eyes.
Get over yourself. You aren't owed nerfs because you lose to something, or because you have to play an overdone popular deck to beat something else. I will be forever maddened by this idea (which players still haven't learned after all of these years).
What I find funny is that it seems like the devs were trying to push a heal druid archetype with cards like Crystal Stag, Dreamway Guardians and Crystal Power. But the playerbase was like "Yeah why play heal druid when we can just kill other players faster with tokens." Do the devs even playtest the game?
I'm sure most of the people posting these type of threads are sitting at ranks 10-5. Instead of complaining I wish they'd spend as much time trying to get better at the game. Unless the majority of top pros are considering a deck or class oppressive then it probably isn't it's just a strong deck and you should be focusing on YOUR gameplay rather than asking for everyone to play a deck that's weaker than yours
Discuss dis deck.
- My opinion is different than yours.
Let me yell ya why ur wrong.
- Maybe your just salty.
No, this post is meant for healthy discussion. Discuss dis deck.