Edit: The potential nerfs I discuss are only for standard.
Here’s my opinion on the cards that should be nerfed. The Rogue Quest should be nerfed (again), and either Nourish or Ultimate Infestation should be nerfed.
Reasoning for nerfs:
Rogue Quest: the rogue Quest just annihilates Control decks. Its almost a sure lock to win against deck with a late game strategy. Even though it’s been nerfed twice already, the Quest is just limiting for game design and for deck playability.
Druid nerf: While Malygos Druid isn’t warping the meta around it the way people thought it would, Druid as a class is just way too strong right now. Token Druid, Toggwaggle Druid, Malygos Druid, Spiteful Druid, and Taunt Druid are all good decks. And outside of Spiteful Druid, all of these decks have the same base core of cards, with the win condition being the major difference. The core of Wild Growth, Nourish, and Ultimate Infestation are driving nearly the entire class. Other classes have seen nerfs for having cards that “must plays” in every deck (Call of the Wild being a notable example).
So my pick for nerfs for Druid would be nourish or Ultimate Infestation. Wild Growth itself is alright. It’s balanced by the fact that it gives you an empty mana crystal the turn you play it. Nourish though gives you 2 filled mana crystals, along with being a great draw engine when you don’t have Infestation. And Ultimate Infestation is the payoff for all that ramp. It’s why you mindlessly ramp in the early game. It seals games all on its own.
Personally, I would pick Nourish for getting nerfed. While Infestation is the major payoff card and is obviously broken, it will eventually rotate out of standard. Nourish is design limiting though. It prevents Blizzard from introducing better ramp in the future because that ramp has to compete with the evergreen Nourish. And it also limits design for draw cards for Druid.
Juicy Psychmelon increase cost to (6) - compare with Elven Minstrel, and Sprint and consider that tutored draw may be a downside, but it is also always an upside (you always get what you want), especially in a Ramp/OTK class.
I don't think increasing its cost will do enough, honestly. Increasing the cost means nothing to Druid because their specialty is ramp. They can wait for their combo pieces to come together. The problem is that it gives them their entire combo in hand. I'm with you though on making it a 6 mana card. The fact that it costs only 4 mana is pretty fuckin' offensive.
Well, the mana nerf is subtle but nasty: it de-optimises their normal card draw slightly, and it forces them to waste more Tempo to Combo up: precious Tempo that they use now for defensive purposes.
Probably more cards need to be hit if we look at Wild Druid, possibly removing the Armor gain on Branching Paths (maybe a +1 Health to minions instead?), but i'd expect the above to open enough of a window for Aggro and Midrange decks to keep the Combo in check.
Nerf the Druids. In the rock paper scissors meta, these guys are the shotgun. Instant win against control, good versus aggro and can either kill other combo decks first or burn their pieces with naturalize.
Give Togwaggle the text: King’s Ransom (cannot be copied)
Juicy Psychmelon: Idk, 8 mana because Druid will always have at least 4 mana crystals ahead of you.
Spreading Plague: 1/3 beatles or some shit. Cost does not matter because Druid will always be at least 3 mana crystals ahead even with a bad hand.
Lets not forget the spawn of satan himself, giggling inventor. Is there really any way to nerf this card without destroying its identity? At 6 mana, it’s still good and can now be used in even decks. Gives odd decks and aggro less shielding. I think this is the best nerf without making it redundant.
Juicy Psychmelon: Idk, 8 mana because Druid will always have at least 4 mana crystals ahead of you.
This is actually an interesting idea. By rising its cost to 7 or more, you might draw another copy of the Psychmelon instead of the combo piece of your choice. Therefore, you have to:
Cutting one Juicy Psychmelon of your deck, dilluting the consistency of the card.
Risking to have an important chance to have your combo delayed by one turn in which you'll gain zero tempo.
It also makes sense that it's at least as expensive as Sprint, since tutors are better than plain card draw. 4 mana makes no sense at all.
It has one of the highest "when played" stats for quest rogue, and honestly breaks the average effect of "remove a card for tempo" that other cards of its type have - typically being one card being worth between 1 and 2 mana tempo, but prep is 3 mana tempo for one card.
Make Baku/Genn have a "must be in opening hand" rule applied like the quests, and change the text to "start of the game: if this is in your hand and you have only odd/even [....]" as to heavily reduce consistency of odd/even decks, while still having just as much potential power overall.
Alternatively, make baku/genn say something like "star of game, as long as your hand and deck have only odd/even cards,[...]" as to incentivize some form of counterplay with stuff like darkness, seafoam bomb, etc.
Edit: that last one would obviously return any buffs AFTER removing the offending cards from hand and deck, just that it has counterplay to be toggled on/off by your opponent
Juicy Psychmelon: Idk, 8 mana because Druid will always have at least 4 mana crystals ahead of you.
This is actually an interesting idea. By rising its cost to 7 or more, you might draw another copy of the Psychmelon instead of the combo piece of your choice. Therefore, you have to:
Cutting one Juicy Psychmelon of your deck, dilluting the consistency of the card.
Risking to have an important chance to have your combo delayed by one turn in which you'll gain zero tempo.
It also makes sense that it's at least as expensive as Sprint, since tutors are better than plain card draw. 4 mana makes no sense at all.
No, you wouldn't draw the other Psychmeln if you had two in your deck. Juicy Psychmelon only draws minions.
there are many good points in this thread - at first i have to say, that i enjoy the meta now, but there are some strong cards that will cause problems for future expansions - most decks only use one new boomsday card (giggling inventor) which is also an big problem
1) giggling inventor doesn't need a nerf from my perspective, but it would fit its purpose better at 6 mana, so it can't be used in the overpowered odd decks
2) quest rogue - i played against the deck enough and it's beatable, if they draw bad or misplay - there are no cards which are standalone good and i would nerf the charge-guys used in this deck - the boar as 1/1 charge combo enabler will always be a problem - the easy change would be to give him rush (the 2/1 Murloc should also gain rush instead of charge) - the quest itself isn't any strong, when there are no cheap charge minions left
3) druid combo decks - i know there is much discussion about the psychmelon for wild, but i dont think that a mana increase would help - druid has no real weakness in the moment, best ramp, best stall, best card draw, best otk-combo-enablers, ok removal - combo and ramp are the core identity, so i would nerv the stall cards or the card draw - a mana increase wouldn't do much cause of the ramp cards, so i would suggest a rework with less draw and less amor
4) deathrattle decks - they can feel really unfair, when you play a midrange type of deck - the biggest offender are the cheap ways for activating strong deathrattle effects and the best deathrattle card ever printed carnivorous cube - i would restrict the cube to not give two copies or increase the mana cost, also i would increase the cost of play dead to 2 or 3 mana - this buys other decks some time to react and prohibits the combo potential a little bit more
all in all i think the meta is healthy now, we only should think of the further evolution of the game and that all combos are only getting stronger, i also think there should be some bad 10-drops in the next expansion, but this is another topic
It has one of the highest "when played" stats for quest rogue, and honestly breaks the average effect of "remove a card for tempo" that other cards of its type have - typically being one card being worth between 1 and 2 mana tempo, but prep is 3 mana tempo for one card.
Make Baku/Genn have a "must be in opening hand" rule applied like the quests, and change the text to "start of the game: if this is in your hand and you have only odd/even [....]" as to heavily reduce consistency of odd/even decks, while still having just as much potential power overall.
Alternatively, make baku/genn say something like "star of game, as long as your hand and deck have only odd/even cards,[...]" as to incentivize some form of counterplay with stuff like darkness, seafoam bomb, etc.
Edit: that last one would obviously return any buffs AFTER removing the offending cards from hand and deck, just that it has counterplay to be toggled on/off by your opponent
yes, prep should be ristricted to spells that cost 4 or less mana, so they can print big spells that aren't overpriced
I think Genn and Baku are a bigger problem to balance - I wouldn't go with your on/off-solution because there is to much explanation needed and it will confuse the casual players to much - there has to be a bigger downside than an ok-statted big minion in deck, so i would suggest, that the opponent should also get something - how would it be when one player gets his better hero power and the other gains one mana crystall - i think this could balance the tempo generated by the hero power- i also would balance some odd cards - making them even or so
Juicy Psychmelon increase cost to (6) - compare with Elven Minstrel, and Sprint and consider that tutored draw may be a downside, but it is also always an upside (you always get what you want), especially in a Ramp/OTK class.
I don't think increasing its cost will do enough, honestly. Increasing the cost means nothing to Druid because their specialty is ramp. They can wait for their combo pieces to come together. The problem is that it gives them their entire combo in hand. I'm with you though on making it a 6 mana card. The fact that it costs only 4 mana is pretty fuckin' offensive.
Well, the mana nerf is subtle but nasty: it de-optimises their normal card draw slightly, and it forces them to waste more Tempo to Combo up: precious Tempo that they use now for defensive purposes.
Probably more cards need to be hit if we look at Wild Druid, possibly removing the Armor gain on Branching Paths (maybe a +1 Health to minions instead?), but i'd expect the above to open enough of a window for Aggro and Midrange decks to keep the Combo in check.
I feel like if a Minion Health choice is implemented, you would probably do more than +1 Health, maybe not. It would make sense to have a Health buff choice in place of Armor, considering the Attack buff. I believe +2 Minion Health is the least you could write for a Minion Health buff.
the problem with Druid is not from a single card itself, its from their synergy so I think nerf 2-3 cards is enough
Ugh - Branching Paths and that summon treants deathrattle card, + Savage Roar is just damn disgusting after a round of Spreading Plague. I don't usually call for nerfs, but this whole combo is just wrong. I've had my fill with it. The class card design just has not been thought out properly - It's almost like a full board Warlock DK res with charge. That whole combo is virtually unbeatable when it has a turn to attack with all the buffs. Psychic Scream is the only thing that comes to mind that can stop it hard after a turn.
How does this get nerfed?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I wasn't planning on going for a run today. But those cops came out of nowhere.
Druid druid druid druid. Disgusting cards they have that Warrior ornPriest players are willing to sell kidney just to get 1 of those cards in their pathetic decks
Druid druid druid druid. Disgusting cards they have that Warrior ornPriest players are willing to sell kidney just to get 1 of those cards in their pathetic decks
Hunter is way better at the moment, and there are warrior and priest mains in legend... ur just being Sodium chloridy
Juicy Psychmelon: Idk, 8 mana because Druid will always have at least 4 mana crystals ahead of you.
This is actually an interesting idea. By rising its cost to 7 or more, you might draw another copy of the Psychmelon instead of the combo piece of your choice. Therefore, you have to:
Cutting one Juicy Psychmelon of your deck, dilluting the consistency of the card.
Risking to have an important chance to have your combo delayed by one turn in which you'll gain zero tempo.
It also makes sense that it's at least as expensive as Sprint, since tutors are better than plain card draw. 4 mana makes no sense at all.
The card draws minions not spells, it wont draw juicy psychmelon
Druid druid druid druid. Disgusting cards they have that Warrior ornPriest players are willing to sell kidney just to get 1 of those cards in their pathetic decks
Hunter is way better at the moment, and there are warrior and priest mains in legend... ur just being Sodium chloridy
It may be better, but I'd rather face more Hunters than Druids. They have been 76% of my matchups over the last 25 games in ranked. That is just simply an insane number. 19 out of 25 is unacceptable, and not simply from a playability perspective, but it just makes it stale as f***.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I wasn't planning on going for a run today. But those cops came out of nowhere.
Edit: The potential nerfs I discuss are only for standard.
Here’s my opinion on the cards that should be nerfed. The Rogue Quest should be nerfed (again), and either Nourish or Ultimate Infestation should be nerfed.
Reasoning for nerfs:
Rogue Quest: the rogue Quest just annihilates Control decks. Its almost a sure lock to win against deck with a late game strategy. Even though it’s been nerfed twice already, the Quest is just limiting for game design and for deck playability.
Druid nerf: While Malygos Druid isn’t warping the meta around it the way people thought it would, Druid as a class is just way too strong right now. Token Druid, Toggwaggle Druid, Malygos Druid, Spiteful Druid, and Taunt Druid are all good decks. And outside of Spiteful Druid, all of these decks have the same base core of cards, with the win condition being the major difference. The core of Wild Growth, Nourish, and Ultimate Infestation are driving nearly the entire class. Other classes have seen nerfs for having cards that “must plays” in every deck (Call of the Wild being a notable example).
So my pick for nerfs for Druid would be nourish or Ultimate Infestation. Wild Growth itself is alright. It’s balanced by the fact that it gives you an empty mana crystal the turn you play it. Nourish though gives you 2 filled mana crystals, along with being a great draw engine when you don’t have Infestation. And Ultimate Infestation is the payoff for all that ramp. It’s why you mindlessly ramp in the early game. It seals games all on its own.
Personally, I would pick Nourish for getting nerfed. While Infestation is the major payoff card and is obviously broken, it will eventually rotate out of standard. Nourish is design limiting though. It prevents Blizzard from introducing better ramp in the future because that ramp has to compete with the evergreen Nourish. And it also limits design for draw cards for Druid.
Well, the mana nerf is subtle but nasty: it de-optimises their normal card draw slightly, and it forces them to waste more Tempo to Combo up: precious Tempo that they use now for defensive purposes.
Probably more cards need to be hit if we look at Wild Druid, possibly removing the Armor gain on Branching Paths (maybe a +1 Health to minions instead?), but i'd expect the above to open enough of a window for Aggro and Midrange decks to keep the Combo in check.
Nerf the Druids. In the rock paper scissors meta, these guys are the shotgun. Instant win against control, good versus aggro and can either kill other combo decks first or burn their pieces with naturalize.
Give Togwaggle the text: King’s Ransom (cannot be copied)
Juicy Psychmelon: Idk, 8 mana because Druid will always have at least 4 mana crystals ahead of you.
Spreading Plague: 1/3 beatles or some shit. Cost does not matter because Druid will always be at least 3 mana crystals ahead even with a bad hand.
Lets not forget the spawn of satan himself, giggling inventor. Is there really any way to nerf this card without destroying its identity? At 6 mana, it’s still good and can now be used in even decks. Gives odd decks and aggro less shielding. I think this is the best nerf without making it redundant.
This is actually an interesting idea. By rising its cost to 7 or more, you might draw another copy of the Psychmelon instead of the combo piece of your choice. Therefore, you have to:
It also makes sense that it's at least as expensive as Sprint, since tutors are better than plain card draw. 4 mana makes no sense at all.
card should be nerfed imo:
Giggling Inventor : 5 mana with huge value
and 2-3 Druid cards from the list:
Branching Paths : 4 mana very flexible card
Nourish : another flexible card
Ultimate Infestation maybe 4-4-4/4 is ok
Spreading Plague
the problem with Druid is not from a single card itself, its from their synergy so I think nerf 2-3 cards is enough
Prep: reduce next spell by 2.
It has one of the highest "when played" stats for quest rogue, and honestly breaks the average effect of "remove a card for tempo" that other cards of its type have - typically being one card being worth between 1 and 2 mana tempo, but prep is 3 mana tempo for one card.
Make Baku/Genn have a "must be in opening hand" rule applied like the quests, and change the text to "start of the game: if this is in your hand and you have only odd/even [....]" as to heavily reduce consistency of odd/even decks, while still having just as much potential power overall.
Alternatively, make baku/genn say something like "star of game, as long as your hand and deck have only odd/even cards,[...]" as to incentivize some form of counterplay with stuff like darkness, seafoam bomb, etc.
Edit: that last one would obviously return any buffs AFTER removing the offending cards from hand and deck, just that it has counterplay to be toggled on/off by your opponent
No, you wouldn't draw the other Psychmeln if you had two in your deck. Juicy Psychmelon only draws minions.
there are many good points in this thread - at first i have to say, that i enjoy the meta now, but there are some strong cards that will cause problems for future expansions - most decks only use one new boomsday card (giggling inventor) which is also an big problem
1) giggling inventor doesn't need a nerf from my perspective, but it would fit its purpose better at 6 mana, so it can't be used in the overpowered odd decks
2) quest rogue - i played against the deck enough and it's beatable, if they draw bad or misplay - there are no cards which are standalone good and i would nerf the charge-guys used in this deck - the boar as 1/1 charge combo enabler will always be a problem - the easy change would be to give him rush (the 2/1 Murloc should also gain rush instead of charge) - the quest itself isn't any strong, when there are no cheap charge minions left
3) druid combo decks - i know there is much discussion about the psychmelon for wild, but i dont think that a mana increase would help - druid has no real weakness in the moment, best ramp, best stall, best card draw, best otk-combo-enablers, ok removal - combo and ramp are the core identity, so i would nerv the stall cards or the card draw - a mana increase wouldn't do much cause of the ramp cards, so i would suggest a rework with less draw and less amor
4) deathrattle decks - they can feel really unfair, when you play a midrange type of deck - the biggest offender are the cheap ways for activating strong deathrattle effects and the best deathrattle card ever printed carnivorous cube - i would restrict the cube to not give two copies or increase the mana cost, also i would increase the cost of play dead to 2 or 3 mana - this buys other decks some time to react and prohibits the combo potential a little bit more
all in all i think the meta is healthy now, we only should think of the further evolution of the game and that all combos are only getting stronger, i also think there should be some bad 10-drops in the next expansion, but this is another topic
yes, prep should be ristricted to spells that cost 4 or less mana, so they can print big spells that aren't overpriced
I think Genn and Baku are a bigger problem to balance - I wouldn't go with your on/off-solution because there is to much explanation needed and it will confuse the casual players to much - there has to be a bigger downside than an ok-statted big minion in deck, so i would suggest, that the opponent should also get something - how would it be when one player gets his better hero power and the other gains one mana crystall - i think this could balance the tempo generated by the hero power- i also would balance some odd cards - making them even or so
I feel like if a Minion Health choice is implemented, you would probably do more than +1 Health, maybe not. It would make sense to have a Health buff choice in place of Armor, considering the Attack buff. I believe +2 Minion Health is the least you could write for a Minion Health buff.
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Ugh - Branching Paths and that summon treants deathrattle card, + Savage Roar is just damn disgusting after a round of Spreading Plague. I don't usually call for nerfs, but this whole combo is just wrong. I've had my fill with it. The class card design just has not been thought out properly - It's almost like a full board Warlock DK res with charge. That whole combo is virtually unbeatable when it has a turn to attack with all the buffs. Psychic Scream is the only thing that comes to mind that can stop it hard after a turn.
How does this get nerfed?
I wasn't planning on going for a run today. But those cops came out of nowhere.
Druid druid druid druid. Disgusting cards they have that Warrior ornPriest players are willing to sell kidney just to get 1 of those cards in their pathetic decks
Hunter is way better at the moment, and there are warrior and priest mains in legend... ur just being Sodium chloridy
The card draws minions not spells, it wont draw juicy psychmelon
It may be better, but I'd rather face more Hunters than Druids. They have been 76% of my matchups over the last 25 games in ranked. That is just simply an insane number. 19 out of 25 is unacceptable, and not simply from a playability perspective, but it just makes it stale as f***.
I wasn't planning on going for a run today. But those cops came out of nowhere.