I actually believe the quest as it stood after the first nerf was fine. The deck required the right draws to complete the quest. I actually believe a 1 mana increase to Sonya Shadowdancer would have been a better nerf. When the quest first came out, it was just frustrating to play against. The deck is strong now due to the gimmick with sonya and Southsea Deckhand (or Stonetusk Boar), resulting in an immediate completion.
This is a pretty significant shift in favor of control decks which don't see a ton of play today. In particular, I'm thinking of Odd Warrior and Odd Mage. Flamestrike and Reckless Flurry + Tank Up! will be very effective ways to deal with a massive board presence, which in turn could make Quest Rogue players a little slower to build up a board and a little slower to kill opponents.
I think it's fascinating that this card has been nerfed twice and there's still a chance that it could still be a problem (for the record I think this nerf is fine, I'm more intrigued to see what happens).
1. A radical redesign of how the quest rogue reward functions might have been better. Having it be a +x/+x buff would be more interesting, and make the core minions matter. Perhaps the elemental synergy of Tol'vir Stoneshaper, seen some in the early QR days, could have come back. Making the Crystal Core into a "minion" like Nether Portal might have been good, in order to weaken the impact of Preparation as well as limit the number of minions a rogue could play. Adding a way to polymorph or silence off the buff would also have been good.
2. A radical redesign of how the quest rogue reward functions isn't worth the design team's time. Just bopping it down to 4/4 from 5/5 with no change in real mechanics is easy and probably accomplishes enough. I'd rather look forward to the next expansion, rather than look back.
In case people wanted to quickly look at what people said when it was revealed haha. Some people saw its potential, but no one seemed to believe it was broken.
lol .. that was actually fun reading. Amazing how many people didn't see just how broken this card was going to be
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I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
This is a pretty significant shift in favor of control decks which don't see a ton of play today. In particular, I'm thinking of Odd Warrior and Odd Mage. Flamestrike and Reckless Flurry + Tank Up! will be very effective ways to deal with a massive board presence, which in turn could make Quest Rogue players a little slower to build up a board and a little slower to kill opponents.
This was my first thought as well, especially since those 2 decks (Jaina Control Mage and Tank Up Control Warrior) have been my two main decks for the last couple seasons.
I think it will help, but if the pilot of the rogue deck is smart, it won't help enough. They just wont over commit. If they just start chipping you down, you have no choice but to pop the spells, and once they are gone, you are still toast.
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I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
This changes almost nothing, really does not matter if you're getting slapped for 5 or 4 from infinite stream of charge minions, deck remains one sided solitaire which was the concern to begin with...
I actually believe the quest as it stood after the first nerf was fine. The deck required the right draws to complete the quest. I actually believe a 1 mana increase to Sonya Shadowdancer would have been a better nerf. When the quest first came out, it was just frustrating to play against. The deck is strong now due to the gimmick with sonya and Southsea Deckhand (or Stonetusk Boar), resulting in an immediate completion.
Yeah, let’s nerf a fun card with bad stats that cannot survive more than one turn :)
Well I did craft Sonya couple months ago for tempo rogue. I was at the brink of pushing the craft button for Zola, untill I decided to wait after potential nerfs. Thank god ;). Sonya might see play somewhere else.
Zola the Gorgon is used in other decks besides Quest Rogue. She's is really good since she can get you a copy of a really powerful minion.
Does Blizzard not do a lot of RnD? How can a card be created and need not one but 2 nerfs?
I hate to break this news to you, but WE are Blizzard's RnD, and we pay for the privilege. This is technically known as a "good business model".
As Facebook, Google, Amazon, Apple, and of course Activision understand, data is never neutral. It's always valuable to those who possess it, and building up vast data banks is the modern form of wealth.
Gold once sat in storehouses, causing the wealthy to smile in comfort. Then it was oil. Now it's data.
I voted no. They should have nerfed this card to the oblivion instead of making minions simply 4/4. What s the difference between a 1 mana 4/4 charge and a 1 mana 5/5 charge? Yes, it s a bit weaker, but not so much
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"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."
Wowed by how many rogue fanboys can't see that a completely uninteractable deck that spits out board after board of charging 5/5s needed to be changed.
The no-votes are mostly from people who think the nerf didn't go far enough.
I don't see the quest being nerfed a third time, if quest rogue is still broken, they may just nerf stonetusk and southsea or shadowstep instead.
Dropping it to 4/4 without reducing the minions required drops this to Tier 3, if not worse.
As it is now, Quest Rogue finishes its work on 6 or 7. so that's 7 or 8 to get value. Anyone think it'll be easy to get a competitive level of value at that point? I don't. They will get out resourced and out traded against the very thing they're supposed to beat.
No thanks. I'll take my 1600 dust.
It's already tier 3 according to vs. syndicate. I hope it drops deep into tier4 and vanishes from the meta.
It was pretty obvious that the caverns below would be OP when it came out, and it was. Then they nerfed it to need 5 minions. I assumed that everybody would still be using the deck, but it disappeared overnight. Then people figured out what they should have already seen, and that's that the deck was STILL too strong. And now the card is nerfed again. And it's STILL playable, but I think it might be balanced this time.
Unless you're a priest. Then you're just screwed, lol. All 4 attack minions all day long...
Quest rogue is just under 50% winrate, I expect it to drop below 45% winrate, making it nonviable for laddering.
This is a pretty significant shift in favor of control decks which don't see a ton of play today. In particular, I'm thinking of Odd Warrior and Odd Mage. Flamestrike and Reckless Flurry + Tank Up! will be very effective ways to deal with a massive board presence, which in turn could make Quest Rogue players a little slower to build up a board and a little slower to kill opponents.
This was my first thought as well, especially since those 2 decks (Jaina Control Mage and Tank Up Control Warrior) have been my two main decks for the last couple seasons.
I think it will help, but if the pilot of the rogue deck is smart, it won't help enough. They just wont over commit. If they just start chipping you down, you have no choice but to pop the spells, and once they are gone, you are still toast.
Then start adding some actual threats to your deck. You only need 2-4 removal spells and board clears, the rest can be minions and weapons.
Quest Rogue dumpsters control and gets dumpster'd by aggro. The deck limits the archetypes available and the expectations of the game. Right now in hearthstone, the match is decided based on what archetype you select ( control, aggro, or quest rogue.) It's rare to play a game where your decisions and resource management matter. That's the problem Quest Rogue creates. It creates the issue of "what should I queue up with?" Right now to climb ladder, you need a control, aggro, and quest rogue deck. Then you alternate your deck depending on what you're facing the most. It polarizes the game and we're pretty much playing rock-paper-scissors. Card games are generally more enjoyable when you have to think about decision making in-game-- not decision making of what to queue.
Except that midrange Druid is one of the most successful decks in the meta, and stands only to grow in power post nerf to Paladin and Warlock. And I'm sorry, but you basically just said that Quest Rogue conforms to the mid-range archetype of getting smoked by aggro and rolling control. So one more time, what's so out of proportion, un-fun or ridiculous about this archetype? It's literally holding the same position, with a lower win-rate than Spiteful Druid. (Which, by the by, a 1 mana nerf isn't going to disturb nearly so badly as what's being done to the other 2 among the power 3 of the WW meta.)
The reason this is different than a typical archetype is that Quest Rogue creates 90/10 or 10/90 scenarios ( given the Quest Rogue knows how to play. i.e. not using Vanishes simply to complete the quest faster, but for OTK combos.) Play Control against Quest Rogue and you get steamrolled 90% of the time. Queue up Aggro to combat Quest Rogue and you'll win 90% of the time. This polarizes the game and punishes the creation of Control decks, which isn't good for a competitive environment. If one deck limits space for deck creation, it creates a stale gaming experience. This is why aggro is running rampant with Paladin being at the top of the meta-- it doesn't get as punished for playing against Control like Control gets punished for playing against Quest Rogue. The end result is a large part of your decision making process goes into what you should queue up as rather than actual decisions in game. I.e. a player can have Odd Paladin, Control Priest, and Quest Rogue in their line-up. The player would start queuing up with the most consistent of the three, Odd Paladin, and then alternate decks to combat what the meta is currently playing. Prior to this Quest Rogue meta, a player could play Control and their worst match-up would be 40% now they're looking at a 10% win-rate against Quest Rogue. It's still yet to be seen what the new 4/4 body will accomplish, but the change doesn't really effect the play style of the Quest Rogue vs Control strategy. The 4/4 body won't really effect say someone playing Hadronox Druid-- they'll die just the same because that deck doesn't activate until at least Turn 10 where the Quest Rogue will be able to Vanish away the Druid's strategy to push damage. Basically, gone are the days where if you enjoyed an archetype you could queue up with it and find some moderate success. While it's good to counter the meta, now the strategy is to more strictly counter the meta with your deck choices to have a decent win-rate.
The 1-mana nerf will likely disturb Spiteful Druid. Spiteful Summoner on 6 is the main form for Druid to stop the bleeding against aggro by swinging tempo to threaten a 2-3 turn lethal if the summoned minion isn't addressed. Now, they have to wait 1-more turn to play the Summoner giving aggro decks an additional 6-mana to get damage in before the swing occurs. I.e. They'll likely be dead if they slam a Summoner on 7 without addressing board state. Spiteful Summoner find success the same way aggro finds success-- because it has no match-ups that are 10/90. The end result with Quest Rogue going unaddressed is that more people will play aggro or mid-range with some control options ( Such as Spiteful Druid playing Crypt Lord, Druid of the Scythe, MC Tech, DK, UI, etc.) while Control will become a scarcity because if any Control deck becomes meta Quest Rogue will steal its spotlight.
Nerf has very little impact. This card ruins the meta. Forces everyone to play aggro to counter and kills the control meta. This card needs the War Commander treatment. Better yet remove it from the game already. This is the only nerf of the 6 cards where Blizzard has failed.
Aggro kills many control metas. People keep pretending that Quest Rogue accomplished this. Or am I wrong considering Quest Rogue did not exist during Undertaker Hunter, Secret Pally, Smorc Shaman, and the initial pirate warrior metas?
Many midrange decks also served to force players to play aggro instead of control. Remember midrange shaman?
Quest Rogue did not suddenly create this problem and anyone who thinks so clearly had their heads in the sand when considering previous heavy hitter meta decks from the past.
still broken AF
I actually believe the quest as it stood after the first nerf was fine. The deck required the right draws to complete the quest. I actually believe a 1 mana increase to Sonya Shadowdancer would have been a better nerf. When the quest first came out, it was just frustrating to play against. The deck is strong now due to the gimmick with sonya and Southsea Deckhand (or Stonetusk Boar), resulting in an immediate completion.
Alyss
Get over it lol. Play aggro to counter it
Should have make minions into 3/3 but only requiring 4 minions to complete the Quest.
This way, it does better against Aggro by able to finish the Quest earlier, but won't be able to dumpster Control so easily.
This is a pretty significant shift in favor of control decks which don't see a ton of play today. In particular, I'm thinking of Odd Warrior and Odd Mage. Flamestrike and Reckless Flurry + Tank Up! will be very effective ways to deal with a massive board presence, which in turn could make Quest Rogue players a little slower to build up a board and a little slower to kill opponents.
I think it's fascinating that this card has been nerfed twice and there's still a chance that it could still be a problem (for the record I think this nerf is fine, I'm more intrigued to see what happens).
Does Blizzard not do a lot of RnD? How can a card be created and need not one but 2 nerfs?
1. A radical redesign of how the quest rogue reward functions might have been better. Having it be a +x/+x buff would be more interesting, and make the core minions matter. Perhaps the elemental synergy of Tol'vir Stoneshaper, seen some in the early QR days, could have come back. Making the Crystal Core into a "minion" like Nether Portal might have been good, in order to weaken the impact of Preparation as well as limit the number of minions a rogue could play. Adding a way to polymorph or silence off the buff would also have been good.
2. A radical redesign of how the quest rogue reward functions isn't worth the design team's time. Just bopping it down to 4/4 from 5/5 with no change in real mechanics is easy and probably accomplishes enough. I'd rather look forward to the next expansion, rather than look back.
I'll call this good.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
I think it will help, but if the pilot of the rogue deck is smart, it won't help enough. They just wont over commit. If they just start chipping you down, you have no choice but to pop the spells, and once they are gone, you are still toast.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
This changes almost nothing, really does not matter if you're getting slapped for 5 or 4 from infinite stream of charge minions, deck remains one sided solitaire which was the concern to begin with...
Some comments (from the card discussion thread upon release) for your viewing pleasure...
Worst Quest
The required setup is too steep for the reward, I see no value in this at all.
What is this hot trash? Lol
Errrr. No, thank you.
Too gimmicky.
it's RNG clowntown fiesta time.
I don't see this seeing any play whatsoever
...and that's just from the first page! For the record, I thought it was sh*t too!
"There is no spoon"
I voted no. They should have nerfed this card to the oblivion instead of making minions simply 4/4. What s the difference between a 1 mana 4/4 charge and a 1 mana 5/5 charge? Yes, it s a bit weaker, but not so much
"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."