Control used to be about killing you with late game minions like Grom/Alex. TGT made it into a 'fatigue' style with no direct win condition. Jade and Goro isn't killing old Control, just 'Fatigue' decks. Old Control may be revived in this expansion.
Meanwhile Smorc can't be as smorcy as before and Priest is REALLY REALLY screwed.
Thoughts?
There, now for my typical long post in spoilers to scare less people.
I've read a few posts that stated their worry over Control decks. The idea is that Jade decks always out do control without something to stop them and Goro isn't providing anything to stop them, thus Control will remain dead.
However, I'm not sure that Control is dead. I AM sure that what Goro is attempting is a return to Old Control while Jade symbolzes the end of a style of Control that wasn't really a thing before.
For those that remember, Control used to be symbolized by Control Warrior (or at times, ONLY containted control warrior). That deck, though, wasn't attempting to push toward fatigue. Instead, the goal was to grind your opponent down enough so that you were free to kill them with Alex+Grom. The deck also carried a lot of big minions like Ciarne and Rag to drain you out of resources, but in the end, the killing blow was typically a Grom to the face.
TGT changed that. Justicar and other cards allowed for the growth of a Fatigue Warrior. This deck stopped running Alex/Grom as a finisher and, instead, focused on removal after removal after removal. The goal was less to kill you as it was for you to be unable to kill them before you were either too weak to do anything or simply died to fatigue. Eventually, Grom himself would be mostly used as a removal tool/resource drainer. Elise would offer some additional tool to finish games off but it was less finding some actual killing tool as it was just ot find SOMETHING to drain what little there was left of you. Elise could've just given Yetis really in the end so long as there were enough fo them.
Other decks, like renowarlock, seem to have a similar mentality: grind the opponent out until basically ANYTHING would finish them off. That IS the basis behind Jaraxxus after all: an endless sending of 6/6s that eats your minions and spells until you are too broke to deal with them. Jade Druid, in essence, is the final form of this mentality.
Un'Goro and the quest system seems content of letting this mentality end with Jade Druid. Instead, the control decks that seem to be coming out of Goro seem more in line with Old Control. The value cards help to stall but not completely ruin an offensive front. Instead, they seem enough to push the game into late game. From there you get big game breaking minions like Kalimos, Primal Lord[/cord], and overwhelming power moves like warrior's [card]sulfuras. Druid, Mage, and, by some reports, Warlock's quest seem to be best served as a late game "Ok, time for me to win" victory condition.
Thus in a way Goro marks the end of an era that TGT started, the era of Fatigue decks. Fatigue won't be something you primarily plan for. Instead, it'll be something that happens when things go horribly wrong for both sides and everyone is scrapping at the bits, like a Starcraft game where both bases are smashed and everyone is hunting down each other's final few buildings.
This, meanwhile, helps to explain why Priest is predicted to really suffer here. They don't have a win condition. Even their new cards are more about stalling and out valuing than finding a victory at any real point. Even their quest is more about draining burn cards and stalling. If this was during the TGT times this would be fine. But that won't work now. Without a win condition, all priest has is Fatigue, and Jade does that better.
`Now whether this works or not..we'll see. Whether this will be good for tha gme or not, we'll see. But I believe, this is where we are heading. I will also note that pure smorc decks are also getting this treatment: Even the 'smorcy' hunter and shaman quests demand you sacrifice your first turn to do nothing and sacrifice a card while doing so: something no true smorc deck would ever accept. Instead, they take on almost a midrange/tempo stance by dropping weak cards early on to trigger a MASSIVE swarm burst later on. The only deck that threatens to ignore this, pirate warrior, gets slammed with a a ton of hate cards to try to temper them.
So, if things work, we'll have a world where decks stall for a win condition (even if its only for just 3 or so turns) with big detractents against 100% pure face and Jade always there to punish decks who don't try to kill their opponent at SOME point.
Is this a good thing? Would it be better to go back to old Control? Will this work out? What do you guys think?
I'm not sure where I stand on that being a good thing or not. I remember in the days before TGT people used to complain about how Wallet (control) warrior was such a slow deck to play against, and how they were always tired of warriors just armoring up and passing turns. However those are the control days i long for again. Even now as i just thrash people with my aggressive jade rogue deck, I find myself missing the days of long ago control warrior.
If I can reclaim those days of making my Grinder warlock. I'd be all for it, even if its just to have something different to play again. Sometimes ending a match after only a couple turns feels great but doing it all the time. i'm not as for that, so here's hoping that maybe we do get those old control warrior days again, where we fight for a win condition. we stall to not die to that great Leeroy double power overwhelming burst from Warlock.
Will it be good. I hope so, will it work out. i have some doubts, Aggro is pretty damn strong right now, but with all the taunts that Un'goro dropped maybe Aggro will get slowed down and we can have that balance everyone is always talking about.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity” ― Sun Tzu
Priest has N'zoth and value from stealish cards/triggering deathrattles it's wuite a lot of value.. card advantage and big stuff that can end the game..
The 8/8 taunt for 5 except the paladin reward is the best body reward of them all other bodies quests are 8/8s without immediant effect on board, a reno effect is very strong..
The queat might be too weak though it's not a win condition..
Btw finishing games by fatigue isn't so fun so it's ok if fatigue is dead it's not ok to cheat it withjade idol though :/
SMOrc might actually wind up being dead this particular set. Elementals, a neutral archetype, have some amazing tools against it; Tar Elemental is good enough on its own to be run without any other Elementals and it curves into Stoneshaper. Hunter on the other hand has really good early tempo now, even if they run the quest!
With the introduction of quests Fatigue will certainly no longer be a thing. The quests make it as if there are 9 new Jade decks in the meta which is pretty nuts. I'm willing to bet you're right on the money!
Time will tell if you're right, but this is certainly one of the more thoughtful meta predictions I have read on this forum. Much better than "Hur dur jade is going to be unstoppable me don't have own opinions just copypaste from reddit"
Don't rule out Priest this expansion. With so many one or two attack value minions, expect them to be stolen and used against you.
But stealing those 1/2 attack minions really isn't much of a threat. You can smash them into other minions, yes, and steal one or two, but you can't end games with that.
At some point a deck has to go into Smorc mode. They need THREATS that seek to end you.
Perhaps priest could use the spellspam to focus on Yogg/Arcane Golems. I wouldn't use N'Zoth but instead use deathrattles that help to keep you alivev or refil (Hoarder, Shade, Shellraiser, Mixtures, so on). Byond that focus on spells to drain and stall. Elise and Lyra can help here. Ending threats would be the golems, Amara, and perhaps Ysera.
The questions though: Can you fit all that into a reliable deck? Is that enough threats to make the kill? Is it too slow given how you don't have much card draw (perhaps Auctioneer?)
But you see the point. The deck has to LEAD to something, not just do cute tricks like steal a 2/4. It needs to be something that is backbreaking to the opponent. I mean "Alex this turn, next turn 12 attack Grom+axe woops dead" back breaking.
Ah, fatigue warriors, old good times. I made fatigue reno rogue deck with Anubarak to counter them (before old gods). Warriors don't have hard removals (like sheep or hex) so Anubarak was infinite threat to them, similar to today's jade idol, but 9x more expensive. And it worked perfectly, ~90% wins against fatigue warrior, ~50% against midrange, ~10% against aggro (it was too slow to counter aggro).
This expansion is more midrange/control oriented, hope jades won't destroy it.
Personally I'm happy fatigue decks got killed by Jades, theres just nothing more boring. But I liked the control warrior of very old that actually tried to kill you with Grom, would be cool to see that style of CW back...
I also agree that there might be some more control out ther, warrior seems to be in a good spot. I don't think priest is that screwed if there is a lot of control out there, the classs has always been good in control vs. control due to thoughtsteal etc. Still probably going to be among the weaker classes
Now there is the question about aggro, I think it might be a back and forth, the new expansion will give a lot of tools against aggro, which will make it less dominating, but as soon as there aren't many aggro decks on ladder people will start to build greedier decks to be stronger against the non-aggro. Greedy decks will leave openings for the aggro decks... It will be interesting to see where it all balances out.
the true height of fatigue control was pre-wotog, when concede mage ruled. that was certainly the most fun i've ever had playing control, and I can't imagine we'll ever surpass it. at least control mage can actually kill its opponent now with time warp :)
i wouldn't rule out priest this expansion though. n'zoth is a very powerful tempo play, and jade druid often can't beat a 6 minion n'zoth.
Death of fatigue, very likely. Keeping quests against fatigue decks meant that after some point, there will be swing proactive turns so powerful that normal collectible cards find it hard to beat. Hence the "remove everything" fatigue gameplan in Un'goro needs plenty of massive value removals like Brawl or King Mosh, a plan that is susceptible to pure aggro.
Of course the above argument is under the assumption that quest is a viable mechanic - because if it isn't, that meant everyone's playing aggro.
And of course this above talk discounts combo decks, because the only combo deck that seems viable now is Time Warp mage, and we don't know how they'll do.
But I don't think aggro is dead just yet. While pirates find it tough with Golakka Crawler lying around, the Quest hunter can complete their quests by turn 4 (on coin) then finish the opponent off with 8/8 on curve (on coin).
Summary for those skimming:
There, now for my typical long post in spoilers to scare less people.
I've read a few posts that stated their worry over Control decks. The idea is that Jade decks always out do control without something to stop them and Goro isn't providing anything to stop them, thus Control will remain dead.
However, I'm not sure that Control is dead. I AM sure that what Goro is attempting is a return to Old Control while Jade symbolzes the end of a style of Control that wasn't really a thing before.
For those that remember, Control used to be symbolized by Control Warrior (or at times, ONLY containted control warrior). That deck, though, wasn't attempting to push toward fatigue. Instead, the goal was to grind your opponent down enough so that you were free to kill them with Alex+Grom. The deck also carried a lot of big minions like Ciarne and Rag to drain you out of resources, but in the end, the killing blow was typically a Grom to the face.
TGT changed that. Justicar and other cards allowed for the growth of a Fatigue Warrior. This deck stopped running Alex/Grom as a finisher and, instead, focused on removal after removal after removal. The goal was less to kill you as it was for you to be unable to kill them before you were either too weak to do anything or simply died to fatigue. Eventually, Grom himself would be mostly used as a removal tool/resource drainer. Elise would offer some additional tool to finish games off but it was less finding some actual killing tool as it was just ot find SOMETHING to drain what little there was left of you. Elise could've just given Yetis really in the end so long as there were enough fo them.
Other decks, like renowarlock, seem to have a similar mentality: grind the opponent out until basically ANYTHING would finish them off. That IS the basis behind Jaraxxus after all: an endless sending of 6/6s that eats your minions and spells until you are too broke to deal with them. Jade Druid, in essence, is the final form of this mentality.
Un'Goro and the quest system seems content of letting this mentality end with Jade Druid. Instead, the control decks that seem to be coming out of Goro seem more in line with Old Control. The value cards help to stall but not completely ruin an offensive front. Instead, they seem enough to push the game into late game. From there you get big game breaking minions like Kalimos, Primal Lord[/cord], and overwhelming power moves like warrior's [card]sulfuras. Druid, Mage, and, by some reports, Warlock's quest seem to be best served as a late game "Ok, time for me to win" victory condition.
Thus in a way Goro marks the end of an era that TGT started, the era of Fatigue decks. Fatigue won't be something you primarily plan for. Instead, it'll be something that happens when things go horribly wrong for both sides and everyone is scrapping at the bits, like a Starcraft game where both bases are smashed and everyone is hunting down each other's final few buildings.
This, meanwhile, helps to explain why Priest is predicted to really suffer here. They don't have a win condition. Even their new cards are more about stalling and out valuing than finding a victory at any real point. Even their quest is more about draining burn cards and stalling. If this was during the TGT times this would be fine. But that won't work now. Without a win condition, all priest has is Fatigue, and Jade does that better.
`Now whether this works or not..we'll see. Whether this will be good for tha gme or not, we'll see. But I believe, this is where we are heading. I will also note that pure smorc decks are also getting this treatment: Even the 'smorcy' hunter and shaman quests demand you sacrifice your first turn to do nothing and sacrifice a card while doing so: something no true smorc deck would ever accept. Instead, they take on almost a midrange/tempo stance by dropping weak cards early on to trigger a MASSIVE swarm burst later on. The only deck that threatens to ignore this, pirate warrior, gets slammed with a a ton of hate cards to try to temper them.
So, if things work, we'll have a world where decks stall for a win condition (even if its only for just 3 or so turns) with big detractents against 100% pure face and Jade always there to punish decks who don't try to kill their opponent at SOME point.
Is this a good thing? Would it be better to go back to old Control? Will this work out? What do you guys think?
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I'm not sure where I stand on that being a good thing or not. I remember in the days before TGT people used to complain about how Wallet (control) warrior was such a slow deck to play against, and how they were always tired of warriors just armoring up and passing turns. However those are the control days i long for again. Even now as i just thrash people with my aggressive jade rogue deck, I find myself missing the days of long ago control warrior.
If I can reclaim those days of making my Grinder warlock. I'd be all for it, even if its just to have something different to play again. Sometimes ending a match after only a couple turns feels great but doing it all the time. i'm not as for that, so here's hoping that maybe we do get those old control warrior days again, where we fight for a win condition. we stall to not die to that great Leeroy double power overwhelming burst from Warlock.
Will it be good. I hope so, will it work out. i have some doubts, Aggro is pretty damn strong right now, but with all the taunts that Un'goro dropped maybe Aggro will get slowed down and we can have that balance everyone is always talking about.
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity” ― Sun Tzu
My current disaster-piece
Priest has N'zoth and value from stealish cards/triggering deathrattles it's wuite a lot of value.. card advantage and big stuff that can end the game..
The 8/8 taunt for 5 except the paladin reward is the best body reward of them all other bodies quests are 8/8s without immediant effect on board, a reno effect is very strong..
The queat might be too weak though it's not a win condition..
Btw finishing games by fatigue isn't so fun so it's ok if fatigue is dead it's not ok to cheat it withjade idol though :/
SMOrc might actually wind up being dead this particular set. Elementals, a neutral archetype, have some amazing tools against it; Tar Elemental is good enough on its own to be run without any other Elementals and it curves into Stoneshaper. Hunter on the other hand has really good early tempo now, even if they run the quest!
With the introduction of quests Fatigue will certainly no longer be a thing. The quests make it as if there are 9 new Jade decks in the meta which is pretty nuts. I'm willing to bet you're right on the money!
Don't rule out Priest this expansion. With so many one or two attack value minions, expect them to be stolen and used against you.
Time will tell if you're right, but this is certainly one of the more thoughtful meta predictions I have read on this forum. Much better than "Hur dur jade is going to be unstoppable me don't have own opinions just copypaste from reddit"
The only cancer in Hearthstone is its community.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Ah, fatigue warriors, old good times. I made fatigue reno rogue deck with Anubarak to counter them (before old gods). Warriors don't have hard removals (like sheep or hex) so Anubarak was infinite threat to them, similar to today's jade idol, but 9x more expensive. And it worked perfectly, ~90% wins against fatigue warrior, ~50% against midrange, ~10% against aggro (it was too slow to counter aggro).
This expansion is more midrange/control oriented, hope jades won't destroy it.
Personally I'm happy fatigue decks got killed by Jades, theres just nothing more boring. But I liked the control warrior of very old that actually tried to kill you with Grom, would be cool to see that style of CW back...
I also agree that there might be some more control out ther, warrior seems to be in a good spot. I don't think priest is that screwed if there is a lot of control out there, the classs has always been good in control vs. control due to thoughtsteal etc. Still probably going to be among the weaker classes
Now there is the question about aggro, I think it might be a back and forth, the new expansion will give a lot of tools against aggro, which will make it less dominating, but as soon as there aren't many aggro decks on ladder people will start to build greedier decks to be stronger against the non-aggro. Greedy decks will leave openings for the aggro decks... It will be interesting to see where it all balances out.
the true height of fatigue control was pre-wotog, when concede mage ruled. that was certainly the most fun i've ever had playing control, and I can't imagine we'll ever surpass it. at least control mage can actually kill its opponent now with time warp :)
i wouldn't rule out priest this expansion though. n'zoth is a very powerful tempo play, and jade druid often can't beat a 6 minion n'zoth.
Vvreeeew.
well, in Priest deck you can still get threats and Value from Elise, the Trailblazer
Remember playing Control Shaman with Reincarnate shenanigans? No? It was fun, here's a refresher!
Death of fatigue, very likely. Keeping quests against fatigue decks meant that after some point, there will be swing proactive turns so powerful that normal collectible cards find it hard to beat. Hence the "remove everything" fatigue gameplan in Un'goro needs plenty of massive value removals like Brawl or King Mosh, a plan that is susceptible to pure aggro.
Of course the above argument is under the assumption that quest is a viable mechanic - because if it isn't, that meant everyone's playing aggro.
And of course this above talk discounts combo decks, because the only combo deck that seems viable now is Time Warp mage, and we don't know how they'll do.
But I don't think aggro is dead just yet. While pirates find it tough with Golakka Crawler lying around, the Quest hunter can complete their quests by turn 4 (on coin) then finish the opponent off with 8/8 on curve (on coin).
EDIT: mispells
My greatest achievement yet:
Not disenchanting my double Shadowbomber
I hope Un'Goro is the end of the Pirate Warrior, but when was the last time there was not a ton of aggro on the ladder tho?