Hearthpwn

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Quote from Horkinger >>

No, my point was that you cannot avoid nor influence the value of ice block. The only way I can think of is a combination of reducing mages health and eye for an eye (another unplayable card). But in general and with an average deck, there is no way of avoiding the full effect of ice block.

 You cannot avoid or influence the value of any Secret in the game. They will always get the exact value they state in the Text. Mirror Entity doesn't give you a crippled, altered version of the minion you played, it always gives an exact copy. You cannot avoid or influence that fact. You can give them a low power minion to make sure that copy is less impactful to the game, but they still get a full copy of that minion. Ice Block works the same way, they will get immunity from damage until the end of the turn, you can put them at 1 HP and make sure that immune effect is less impactful (It is less impactful, you know a turn at 30 HP is far better than one at 1 HP), but they will be immune from damage until the turn ends (Not from direct destruction effects).

Quote from DiamondDM13>> That is where 1 HP comes into effect, since them starting at 1 HP is way less impactful than at 30 HP, just like letting them copy a 1/1 Wisp is much less impactful than letting them copy your Deathwing...

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Quote from Horkinger >>

 

 You are plain wrong. You can influence the value of nearly any secret. Giving them a lower mana minion is exactly that: Decreasing the value of mirror entity. Triggering Eye for an Eye with one damage. Triggering explosive trap without minions on board, etc.

bringing him down to 1 hp is not playing around ice block, because he would be dead without the secret. But with it, he gets exactly 1 extra turn. It brings you in a better position for the next turn, but he got there.

 

 No, I'm correct. The value of the Secret is he TEXT of that secret, not some imaginary expectation you have for that secret. Mirror Entity does not state you will get a powerful minion. It states you get a copy of a minion, regardless of the minion. It will always be a full value, exact copy of the minion. Eye for an Eye is the same, you will always deal the exact same damage to the opponent as they did to you, be it 1 Damage or 1 million damage, the secret states you always get the exact same damage dealt. Eye for an Eye doesn't say you will deal 5 or more damage, it says you will deal the exact same damage.

Do people don't read the text of cards in the game? You're expected result for a secret is not the value the secret has, the value a secret has is always constant and impossible to change, they always give you exactly what they state they will give you, no matter what you expect that outcome to be. You are playing this wrong if you think your expectations of what a Secret will give you should be it's value, it is not.

Hum, yes, but he is playing Ice Block, so he is not dead. Same thing with every other secret. If he wasn't playing Mirror Entity, he wouldn't get a copy of your minion, but he is playing it, so he will get a copy of the minion. What is so hard to understand about this?

If you don't want to take this from me, just ask advanced level played of this game how to play around Ice Block. They will answer you the same way I did, because that is how you play around Ice Block, you don't prevent Ice Block's effect, that requires a card to nullify it, which they do exist.

At some point, when you play this game enough, the moment you start the game against Mage, you're mindset is not I'm going to kill the Mage, it's how to I get through the 2 Ice Blocks and make sure they die on the third turn? When I play against a Mage, from the start of the game I'm making my entire game plan around having to break 2 Ice Blocks, because I choose not to run Secret Tech. I know their game plan and I'm matching it with my own game plan and adapting mine to beat theirs and this is something you need to do on the fly. Always account for 2 Ice Blocks, don't think "Oh they should be dead", no their strategy revolves around surviving 2 extra turns, so make your full game plan around that from the start, this will help you will almost every game against Mages.

At least it does work me.

 

Quote from MikaelThas >>

Will you guys think the same after facing a mage that played 5 Ice Blocks? (2 base +2 from cabalist tome +1 from glyph)

That happened to me and hate the card since then. It's ok to avoid defeat once or two, but more is ridiculous. And no, I won't put an eater of secrets in my decks just for that.

You are repeating yourself and you are wrong. That a secret triggers at all is the basis for the secrets value (because otherwise it just has 0 value). But what the effect turns out to be is the value of a secret. But I repaeated this often enough as well.

I asked you to be concise and you obviously cannot be. Just that you know: I wont read your wall of text. 

No, it is not irrelevant. And I am prettsy sure even you know hat a 1/1 is not the same as a 12/12. And the difference between these outcomes is a difference in value the mirror entity provides. The point of a secret is that the opponent can influence the value the secret gets. And this influence you have on the outcome of secrets is called "playing around secrets". You can do with nearly any secret (but for instance not with ice block).

Blizzard has spoken. The war is lost. I hope I am wrong in some ways, and that Mage gets new viable tools to keep certain archetypes that have relied heavily on Ice Block to stay competetive.

When the Force of Nature+Savage Roar combo got nerfed, druid found multiple ways to stay relevant, from spell heavy decks to C'Thun via aggro-tokens eventually to jades and more OTK combos, so all hope is not lost!

Quote from SClone >>

The argument "Mage has no heal" does not consider the folowing cards:
Ice Barrier
Arcane Artificer
Possible outcome of Kabal Chemist
Possible outcome of Kabal Courier
Possible outcome of Kazakus. 
And then there's tonnes of removal, freeze effects and even taunts like Mirror Image. 
And of course the neutral cards.

Now, here's the list for Rogue: 
Leeching Poison
Possible outcome of Lotus Agents. 

And here for Hunter:
[404 NO CARDS FOUND]

So.... Hall of Fame please!

Quote from SlydE >>

Blizzard has spoken. The war is lost. I hope I am wrong in some ways, and that Mage gets new viable tools to keep certain archetypes that have relied heavily on Ice Block to stay competetive.

When the Force of Nature+Savage Roar combo got nerfed, druid found multiple ways to stay relevant, from spell heavy decks to C'Thun via aggro-tokens eventually to jades and more OTK combos, so all hope is not lost!

You have just a problem with definitions, but you are aware of the differences. The outcome of a secret is its value. And you yourself say that the outcome changes. Voilá. The effect of a card is not the value of the card (it can determine it, but it is not the value itself). At least I just had to read your last sentence to know what you wrote before. But that is semantics. You are basically stating what I and some other people in this thread told you. Just that you use different terms to express it: The outcome of the secrets can be influenced by the opponent (1/1 or 12/12). And the exception is ice block because the "outcome" is always an extra turn . Q.e.d.

No, the outcome of ice block is that you are immune for the rest of the turn. There is no interpretation. That is even stated on the card and that is what I explained to you several times. The value/outcome of ice block is always the same: You bavcome immune. The value/outcome of all other secrets depend on what your opponent does.

Yeah, you do change the value/outcome of mirror entity as you already stated yourself. A 1/1 is different fromk a 12/12. And you never change the effect of ice block. pretty simple and you seem to slowly get it.

You have a severe misconception of definitions and card mechanics. My impression is that you absolutely overestimate your understanding of Hearthstone. That already became apparent in the discussion of explosive runes, where you simply stated that you do not want to read the wiki since your (wrong) understanding suffices for you. Here it is similar. You just misuse terms. I clarified that what you call outcome is the value of the card.

But that doesn't even matter, since we both say essentially the same (just that you call it outcome and I call it value). The outcome of mirror entity is influnced by the opponent. But the outcome of ice block is always the same (immunity).

I hope I could help.

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Quote from Banelocky >>

 

 

 That's where you are wrong. If Mirror Entity copies a 1/1 Wisp it's a disaster   mage payed 3 mana for a 1/1 . But with Ice Block it's not nearly ,,way less impactful,, when you put the mage at 1 hp because it doesn't matter if the mage is at 1 or 30 if you get killed next turn ( and that is what decks with Ice Block are built to do ) . If the mage doesn't kill you , you probably win anyway whether you played around Ice Block or not. The MINIMAL effect of Ice Block is the thing it is being played for , it's just a nice bonus if the opponent doesn't / can't play around it. ( While the minimal effect of pretty much every other secret is a disaster ). This is why Ice Block is the least interactive secret in the game by a mile and should be changed in my opinion...but HoF is the next best thing. 

Edit: I guess Blizzard agrees :)  At least I don't have to put up with it in Standard now.

 Did Mirror Entity state in it's card text that you were going to copy a powerful minion? No, it stated you were going to copy the next minion the opponent played. YOU expected to get a better minion, but the card never stated that. Ice Block states you go Immune if the opponent deals lethal damage, it doesn't tell you in what conditions that happens, the game state.

It is actually not hard to play around and it is the same for every deck facing it. You are not required to have any specific cards to play around Ice Block, any deck can do it, they just need to correctly order damage sources to decide what HP they enter immune state at.

On the other hand, look at Mirror Entity. If you are not playing an Aggro deck, say, you are playing a Control deck, you are usually left with very limited ways to deal with Mirror Entity, because almost any minion you play into Mirror is going to be very impactful. It is a card whose options to play around heavily depend on your deck, since a deck not playing low impact minions will always have to hand a high impact copy minion to the opponent.

Same goes to Counterspell. If you are playing a deck where all your spells are high impact spells, high mana ones, you have no options to play around this Secret. Try playing Big Spell Mage against Counterspell and you will see how frustrating it is, since your deck has no options to properly play around Counterspell.

With Ice Block, there is no problems like this, any minions or damage sources you want work perfectly fine, all that matters is that you actually take the time to proper and correctly order them to the best effect.

I wish Secrets like Mirror Entity were as easy to play around as Ice Block, since Ice Block doesn't require specific decks or strategies to be very effective playing around it.

 

If they are moving ice block to wild so they can push a deck like tempo/secret mage, then Brode can shove his game right up where the sun don't shine. 

They just announced Ice Block is being Hall of Famed... FUCK YES!!!

Here's the link for proof xD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfTbICnY0Ws

Quote from Cubesz >>

If they are moving ice block to wild so they can push a deck like tempo/secret mage, then Brode can shove his game right up where the sun don't shine. 

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

Quote from Cubesz >>

If they are moving ice block to wild so they can push a deck like tempo/secret mage, then Brode can shove his game right up where the sun don't shine. 

 It's not about "pushing" anything. They are moving it because a lot of people are tired of dealing with it, just like they were tired of dealing with the Druid combo.

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Well, again, Ice Block is the most interactive Secret 

 

With Ice Block out, Blizz can experiment with other "game extension" tricks for Mage that don't just nullify your opponent's turn no matter what they have on board or in hand.  For example, they could have something that puts the already Mage-specific Animated Armor effect on the hero.  That could probably protect you from lethal at 12 health, but probably not at 3.