There are cards in Magic that have been problematic before -- it's not perfect -- but the consistent high power of Magic is what makes it interesting to me. There is so many things you can do, and each strong card isn't as straight-forward as it looks.
I wish Hearthstone had more unique and strong cards like the four you mentioned. And while everyone else says to move Ice Block to Hall of Fame (which it probably will), I would rather see Blizzard release a better secret counter (one that is good against non-secrets) or a strong neutral card that can do what Ice Block does but it works less efficiently for Mages (hell, it could even have unique deck-building tech of running no secrets? I'll keep dreaming... :P )
I actually agree with this . As a magic player (recently got back into a bit), i like them trying more interesting and unique and powerful effects cards. Also these cards are designed to be strong for a reason thats for sure. I dont see a problem with them ALSO you can see it a mile away when they use them lol. Hearthstone should keep making more unique and strong cards and less just generic.
Any non-legendary auto-include neutral card. I get that they do need powerful neutral cards, but when every deck runs Bonemare the classes lose their identity. That card is too busted for it's cost.
Probably so. Perhaps then, if it loses all enhancements only if it is destroyed outright by the opponent (not destroyed by loss of durability). This would encourage more strategic use of both weapon and enhancement effects. Right now, there's no strategy involved at all as there are NO countermeasures against weapon or enhancements. How many cards can enhance a rogue's weapon? I'm not a rogue guy, but aren't there at least 4 (meaning 8 possibly in the deck)? There are only 3 in total that can destroy it (2 Acidic Ooze and Harrison Jones), and in this case, they would only destroy the current enhancements. Again, if it's demise is because of durability removal, the enhancements remain on it. Alternatively, it could be left as it is, with a neutral legendary that steals the opponent's weapon. That might be more fun. High risk, high reward. Right now, there's no risk, only high reward.
Acidic Swamp Ooze, Corrosive Sludge, Gluttonous Ooze and Harrison Jones are the cards that outright destroy weapons. (There are two more that can, but only by reducing durability.) So there are more weapon-destruction cards than that, and it's pretty worthwhile to tech in one or two oozes and has been for a long time.
Thanks. I knew I was likely missing some. I haven't seen much point in using an Ooze against this rogue weapon. It could buy some time I suppose. I still think that a legendary that steals the weapon would be good.
It does a lot actually. I haven't played with or against Kingsbane yet, so I can't comment on how powerful it is in practice, but the idea of shuffling something into your deck has not historically been a powerful ability; it certainly has its uses but a thing that revives itself... later on in your deck... is typically pretty slow. Yeah they could draw it immediately, but statistically this doesn't happen. Rogue does have a LOT of powerful draw potential, but self-mill is a real problem too -- and I would know because I have run a very powerful Warrior deck with tons of draw, and when I lose it's usually because I milled myself and almost no other reason -- and no matter how powerful they enchant this weapon up to be, it can still only attack once a turn and damages their hero to do so. Even if they keep getting the weapon back, continually pulling weapons instead of other, more or less permanent, assets like minions can simply not be enough, though I'm sure it depends on the game.
Stealing the weapon I think would be too much, at least if the idea were countering Kingsbane specifically (because including Kingsbane in your deck would simply be an auto-lose against a tech card like that). Basically I don't think such a card and Kingsbane could really after be allowed to be in Standard together.
SILENCING a weapon, however, would be an EXCELLENT tech card to include. The fact that no card can yet silence a weapon is meaningless because of course they can make them able to.
In my opinion cards that were released in K&C that are seriously OP and problematic are explosive runes and call to arms.Explosive runes need to be 4 damage at best and call to arms should be 2 minions for 3 mana.
card=gold]corridor creeper[/card] is pretty nasty in aggro/token matchups if you draw it in opening hand. in my wild paladin with Muster for Battle and Haunted Creeper or Lost in the Jungle by turn 4 I've played 2x Corridor Creeper and Crystal Lion which is just an absurd amount of stats that early. Its fun when I pull it off, but I'm not sure how I feel about a game being decided by turn 3 or 4
I have had games when going second where I Lost in the Jungle, Coin, Lost in the Jungle on turn 1 and play a 5/5 divine shield Crystal Lion on turn 2. I'm surprised how little I have seen that card played in wild lists, but that's just op and is basically game winning if they can't deal with it.
The card I find most oppressive is Ice Block. I play a lot of control mage so I have no problem with the card by itself, but when you see a quest mage play it 5 times because of RNG that's just stupid. I really believe it should be taken out of discover/add a random spell to your hand card pools because that is too strong. Rotating to Hall of Fame doesn't really solve that problem because lots of people like myself prefer the wild format, and after the next rotation I would not be surprised to see a lot of people start playing it a lot more as well. With Raza/Kazakus/Dragons/Patches/Jade/Kabal Crystal Runner/Barnes/N'Zoth and many other core cards to many archetypes rotating I will be one of many players playing mostly Wild format.
Patches will rotate next expansion, no need to nerf anything there.
Bonemare is good, but not OP in my opinion. It does have reasonable counterplay (just don't elave anything up turn 6) and it's actually a very important tool for midrange decks to get taunt in the later stages, which keep full aggro in check.
Corridor Creeper I agree is busted and should be nerfed as soon as possible. It ahs no counterplay, no required synergies and no real downsides. I'd like it if they just changed th effect to Friendly minions only in order to either make it a card for token/swarm decks (like Shaman or Zoolock), or to enemy minions only to make it a card for defensive decks that can use it as tempo after clearing the board. Right now it's just a boring must-have that doesn't require any deckbuilding.
Nerfing Vilepsine would be a terrible idea right before the rotation. Tempo Rogue already loses a bunch of tools (PIrate package is very important) and nerfing this card would inevitably just harm any slower Rogue decks as well, which would just seem unfair to the class
No,us wild players don't want to deal with patches either. They need to balance him and other certain cards before wild starts to become a literal unbalanced cesspool. Its fine now but patches should change
Patches will rotate next expansion, no need to nerf anything there.
Bonemare is good, but not OP in my opinion. It does have reasonable counterplay (just don't elave anything up turn 6) and it's actually a very important tool for midrange decks to get taunt in the later stages, which keep full aggro in check.
Corridor Creeper I agree is busted and should be nerfed as soon as possible. It ahs no counterplay, no required synergies and no real downsides. I'd like it if they just changed th effect to Friendly minions only in order to either make it a card for token/swarm decks (like Shaman or Zoolock), or to enemy minions only to make it a card for defensive decks that can use it as tempo after clearing the board. Right now it's just a boring must-have that doesn't require any deckbuilding.
Nerfing Vilepsine would be a terrible idea right before the rotation. Tempo Rogue already loses a bunch of tools (PIrate package is very important) and nerfing this card would inevitably just harm any slower Rogue decks as well, which would just seem unfair to the class
No,us wild players don't want to deal with patches either. They need to balance him and other certain cards before wild starts to become a literal unbalanced cesspool. Its fine now but patches should change
News flash. Wild is already a literal unbalanced cesspool. That's the point and it was always the point.
So I think all class cards need to be a little OP and a as a result I'm not too picky about them. But neutrals that are auto includes are a problem. This is the whole reason why cards got Hall of Famed. So Patches the Pirate has been a problem but it rotates in 4 months so let it be. BUT Corridor Creeper, which seems to be in almost all decks, and Bonemare, now to a lesser extent, are problems. Make Bonemare more expensive or decrease its buff. For Corridor Creeper, reduce its cost when enemy minions die- great against minion heavy decks but a liability against spell heavy decks. This card is the most in need of nerf not b/c it breaks the game but b/c everyone runs it and dilutes deck creativity... I.e. Azure Drake.
Let's be real Explosive Runes has no counter play. you either play a big minion to limit face damage and be sad that your big minion is now dead or low health, or you play something small and take a million face damage. There is no good solution against this card especially since mage burst potential is very high.
Except it has a shit ton of counterplay.
Eater of secrets is the only counter play. Otherwise it's a false choice between losing a big minion or taking big face damage. Pretty much all other secrets allow you to play around them by sacrificing something small so can play something big. This one punishes you for the sacrifice. Ice Block is the only secret that has less counter, and it's going to go HOF next season for that reason.
As I said, I would be satisfied if they just fixed the divine shield interaction to work as it should. That would be enough counter for me.
Too bad Sylvanas isn't in standard anymore. Best counterplay : You steal a mage minion and Sylvanas can't be sheeped at all, ready for the N'Zoth rez :3
Corridor Creeper- 0 mana 5/5 ... why.. make it "this turn" to make it balanced..
Barnes- if you roll Ysherajj on big priest you got like 80% win rate
raza, the unchained - with a big card pool has no weakness to play him in wild he is auto include in all decks.. (people only play priest anyway)
Psychic Scream- why did they release it.. really see no reason.
patches, the pirate - why every tempo deck needs to run this silly card? I don't like the card hate drawing him, hate the rng of drawing vs not drawing it.. it was always annoying.
that new 4/7 guy.. which was suppoused to be a fun card and got to actual decks.. and people thought sylvanas was strong, this card is "at the end of your turn take control of a random enemy minion" in priest decks.. really really powerful card.
Free cards are an issue for almost any card game, Hearthstone, MTG or others. Depending on how the 'free' condition is triggered, it can be very problematic.
Corridor Creeper happens naturally simply by playing the game and doing what you are supposed to do. Get board control and trade minions. A card that can go into both aggro AND control decks feels unbalanced. If a control deck can board clear and then play a free 5/5, that seems pretty unfair. The opposite is true too. You finally clear the board of an aggro deck and they refill the board with a free 5/5 and other minions.
The easy balance is to make it friendly minions only instead. That means it's still powerful in aggro, but not in control decks too.
Patches is also a problem because the Pirate package is both good for aggro AND control. It's a free 1/1 with charge that helps control the board. Control decks are now using the Pirate package to fight against aggro and it removes a card from their deck, making their draws slightly more consistent.
Vilespine Slayer is fine. It's a 2 card requirement AND a terrible top deck. Rogues should be good at single minion removal.
Barnes is actually a problem as well. It's a high roll card that wins games on the spot. You hard mulligan for Barnes on turn 4 and you simply win for Big Priest. It's unfun to play against because you CAN'T kill their minions now. Barnes has other issues as well as the card pool expands, but will only be an issue in Wild later on. Not all classes or decks can play transform effects. And even if they do, decks tend to only have 2 to 4 at most.
The cards I have a problem with the most and that I think that are issues for the future of Hearthstone are the 'free' cards and the high roll cards. Some of the other high roll cards are (most of the random card generators) Babbling Book and Swashburgler. They are impossible to play around and some games you get some ridiculous card out of a 1 drop. And feels terrible when you get a completely useless card too.
I am ok with cards like Discover because it requires knowledge of the cards, game state and some skill is required if the cards are all good.
I am also ok with random effects if they come from your opponents hand or deck, like Crystalline Oracle. Knowing what's in your opponents deck is good, but your opponent CAN play around it, as they know whats in their deck. There is a skill factor for both players.
And Evolve is such a high roll card now that I hate playing with and against it. Oh look, I got a 7 drop, but its a 1/1. Evolve is a decently designed card in theory. It requires a board state AND another card (Evolve). Top decking the card is often terrible too. But because there are so many badly stated cards on most of the mana curve, you end up with a card that feels like an auto win or auto loss card.
I wish Hearthstone moved away from all the random effects and free cards.
Let's be real Explosive Runes has no counter play. you either play a big minion to limit face damage and be sad that your big minion is now dead or low health, or you play something small and take a million face damage. There is no good solution against this card especially since mage burst potential is very high.
Except it has a shit ton of counterplay.
Eater of secrets is the only counter play. Otherwise it's a false choice between losing a big minion or taking big face damage. Pretty much all other secrets allow you to play around them by sacrificing something small so can play something big. This one punishes you for the sacrifice. Ice Block is the only secret that has less counter, and it's going to go HOF next season for that reason.
As I said, I would be satisfied if they just fixed the divine shield interaction to work as it should. That would be enough counter for me.
It's only a false choice because you've decided that it's one. It's still a choice, i.e. counterplay.
Let's be real Explosive Runes has no counter play. you either play a big minion to limit face damage and be sad that your big minion is now dead or low health, or you play something small and take a million face damage. There is no good solution against this card especially since mage burst potential is very high.
Except it has a shit ton of counterplay.
Eater of secrets is the only counter play. Otherwise it's a false choice between losing a big minion or taking big face damage. Pretty much all other secrets allow you to play around them by sacrificing something small so can play something big. This one punishes you for the sacrifice. Ice Block is the only secret that has less counter, and it's going to go HOF next season for that reason.
As I said, I would be satisfied if they just fixed the divine shield interaction to work as it should. That would be enough counter for me.
It's only a false choice because you've decided that it's one. It's still a choice, i.e. counterplay.
I don't think you understand the meanings of the words choice or counterplay.
Let's be real Explosive Runes has no counter play. you either play a big minion to limit face damage and be sad that your big minion is now dead or low health, or you play something small and take a million face damage. There is no good solution against this card especially since mage burst potential is very high.
Except it has a shit ton of counterplay.
Eater of secrets is the only counter play. Otherwise it's a false choice between losing a big minion or taking big face damage. Pretty much all other secrets allow you to play around them by sacrificing something small so can play something big. This one punishes you for the sacrifice. Ice Block is the only secret that has less counter, and it's going to go HOF next season for that reason.
As I said, I would be satisfied if they just fixed the divine shield interaction to work as it should. That would be enough counter for me.
It's only a false choice because you've decided that it's one. It's still a choice, i.e. counterplay.
I don't think you understand the meanings of the words choice or counterplay.
I think you like making up your own definitions so that they fit your contrived notions of how the game should work.
Definition: "Dilemma" - "a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, especially equally undesirable ones" (i.e., Explosive Runes)
Definition: "counterplay - "opposing or contrasting play or an instance such asa countering move or maneuver in a game or competition."
Explain how the choice of losing a good minion or taking a fireball to the face is a "counterplay"
Definition: "Dilemma" - "a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, especially equally undesirable ones" (i.e., Explosive Runes)
Definition: "counterplay - "opposing or contrasting play or an instance such asa countering move or maneuver in a game or competition."
Explain how the choice of losing a good minion or taking a fireball to the face is a "counterplay"
Citations for your definitions? Or are you making them up. Also, why does it have to be a "good" minion that you're losing. Also, why do you have to take a "fireball."
You're creating two false scenarios with the way you've tried to reduce and frame your argument.
The choice isn't binary the way that you are pretending that it is. You can also not to summon into it. You can summon in a way that doesn't trigger Runes. You can summon divine shield minions into it, keeping the minion and reducing the damage. You can summon Mistress into it. Soaking up the damage. You can summon a minion with greater than 6 health.
Game state matters. What's your board look like? What's your health total? Does your deck have heal?
Saying "there's no counterplay to Explosive Runes" is as stupid as saying "there's no counterplay to spells in HS."
And there's motherfucking eater of secrets which is a literal counter.
Definition: "Dilemma" - "a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, especially equally undesirable ones" (i.e., Explosive Runes)
Definition: "counterplay - "opposing or contrasting play or an instance such asa countering move or maneuver in a game or competition."
Explain how the choice of losing a good minion or taking a fireball to the face is a "counterplay"
Citations for your definitions? Or are you making them up. Also, why does it have to be a "good" minion that you're losing. Also, why do you have to take a "fireball."
You're creating two false scenarios with the way you've tried to reduce and frame your argument.
The choice isn't binary the way that you are pretending that it is. You can also not to summon into it. You can summon in a way that doesn't trigger Runes. You can summon divine shield minions into it, keeping the minion and reducing the damage. You can summon Mistress into it. Soaking up the damage. You can summon a minion with greater than 6 health.
Game state matters. What's your board look like? What's your health total? Does your deck have heal?
Saying "there's no counterplay to Explosive Runes" is as stupid as saying "there's no counterplay to spells in HS."
But I'm done arguing this with you.
Ok. I really don't care to argue with someone who doesn't even know how to use google anyway.
Then there are cards that doesn't exist, and therefore create a problem. For example there's no reliable way to break OTK combos, other than Warlock's Treachery shenanigans. This has caused the entire control archetype to almost disappear completely, because they can't beat an OTK regardless of how powerful their control game is. In my opinion Hearthstone needs targeted discard in the neutral slot to solve this problem.
I agree with the majority of your post except for the quoted part... Unless our definitions of "targeted discard" differ (Mine would be a card like Confiscation from Yugioh) I don't think a card like that would be healthy for the game.... You put this card in your Deck and when you play against Exodia Mage you call Tony and it's game over,you win just cause you played a Tech card I wouldn't find that fair.... Not to mention it could be abusable even against non combo Decks.... Discard the opponent's DK and they're probably done for.... What I'm trying to say is that too many Decks right now have specific card(s) as winconditons and if you get rid of them you basically just win the game on spot.... You win the game cause you played one card not cause you outplayed your opponent,I'm sorry but I fail to see how that would make the game better....
And what Exodia Mage is doing to control is fair ? It's one of the most frustrating experiences to just hope that your opponent doesn't draw perfectly (playing his/hers solitaire game) and you can't do anything about it... unless you play some crappy super aggro deck (pirate warrior, aggro druid, zoo...)...
Better counter for decks like exodia mage, big priest, jade druid were required... but blizz will probably do nothing as the last two will die with barnes and jades rotate out... but jade and patches were a really bad design...
so, fix:
Ice Block - to hall of fame with thee ( will be a nerf to exodia mage )
Then there are cards that doesn't exist, and therefore create a problem. For example there's no reliable way to break OTK combos, other than Warlock's Treachery shenanigans. This has caused the entire control archetype to almost disappear completely, because they can't beat an OTK regardless of how powerful their control game is. In my opinion Hearthstone needs targeted discard in the neutral slot to solve this problem.
I agree with the majority of your post except for the quoted part... Unless our definitions of "targeted discard" differ (Mine would be a card like Confiscation from Yugioh) I don't think a card like that would be healthy for the game.... You put this card in your Deck and when you play against Exodia Mage you call Tony and it's game over,you win just cause you played a Tech card I wouldn't find that fair.... Not to mention it could be abusable even against non combo Decks.... Discard the opponent's DK and they're probably done for.... What I'm trying to say is that too many Decks right now have specific card(s) as winconditons and if you get rid of them you basically just win the game on spot.... You win the game cause you played one card not cause you outplayed your opponent,I'm sorry but I fail to see how that would make the game better....
I didn't elaborate fully because my post was getting long already :) I do mean a card that would let you pick a card from your opponent's hand, perhaps while keeping them face down, and discard it.
However the point is not to make that be an autowin. I want all strategies to have counters, and those counters have counters. If your deck is all about an OTK (I have some thoughts on that too), then it would not be unreasonable to have anti-discard tech that lets you recover discarded cards.
However in an optimal world, I think even decks like Quest Mage should have a backup plan, like how Cube Warlock can also win with N'Zoth, Rin or the DK. Decks centered around one thing and one thing only tend to create binary gameplay where the outcome is known from the matchup, and where every game feels the same because you can't adapt your deck depending on opponent.
Point being that Hearthstone hasn't been designed with discard in mind, so any inclusion of such mechanics would require many more complementing changes. Also that is just one suggestion among other possible solutions for control to handle OTK. For example a big expensive neutral legendary that gives you an Ice Block-like effect, or a way to punish the opponent for drawing a lot.
Keleseth - I think this card by itself is fine but cards that making it bounces back is NOT fine. I would make a mechanic to say that the battlecry only triggers ONCE in the game so even if it was bounced back and played again it doesn't trigger the second time.
Priest DK - This card just needs to be 10 mana. The whole highlander priest archetype is just way too good. If you watch any stream or are playing ladder from r5 to legend. This deck is still the best deck overall even after the expansion. It's so well rounded then board clears, draws and close to OTK combo. You cannot tech against it(The Darkness is good enough). In tournies, Priest is the class that gets banned 90% of the time mainly because of highlander priest. I don't know what more is needed to show how OP this deck is. So please Blizz...at least make this 10 mana card
Do or do not. There is no try.
Any non-legendary auto-include neutral card. I get that they do need powerful neutral cards, but when every deck runs Bonemare the classes lose their identity. That card is too busted for it's cost.
So I think all class cards need to be a little OP and a as a result I'm not too picky about them. But neutrals that are auto includes are a problem. This is the whole reason why cards got Hall of Famed. So Patches the Pirate has been a problem but it rotates in 4 months so let it be. BUT Corridor Creeper, which seems to be in almost all decks, and Bonemare, now to a lesser extent, are problems. Make Bonemare more expensive or decrease its buff. For Corridor Creeper, reduce its cost when enemy minions die- great against minion heavy decks but a liability against spell heavy decks. This card is the most in need of nerf not b/c it breaks the game but b/c everyone runs it and dilutes deck creativity... I.e. Azure Drake.
Too bad Sylvanas isn't in standard anymore. Best counterplay : You steal a mage minion and Sylvanas can't be sheeped at all, ready for the N'Zoth rez :3
Corridor Creeper- 0 mana 5/5 ... why.. make it "this turn" to make it balanced..
Barnes- if you roll Ysherajj on big priest you got like 80% win rate
raza, the unchained - with a big card pool has no weakness to play him in wild he is auto include in all decks.. (people only play priest anyway)
Psychic Scream- why did they release it.. really see no reason.
patches, the pirate - why every tempo deck needs to run this silly card? I don't like the card hate drawing him, hate the rng of drawing vs not drawing it.. it was always annoying.
that new 4/7 guy.. which was suppoused to be a fun card and got to actual decks.. and people thought sylvanas was strong, this card is "at the end of your turn take control of a random enemy minion" in priest decks.. really really powerful card.
Free cards are an issue for almost any card game, Hearthstone, MTG or others. Depending on how the 'free' condition is triggered, it can be very problematic.
Corridor Creeper happens naturally simply by playing the game and doing what you are supposed to do. Get board control and trade minions. A card that can go into both aggro AND control decks feels unbalanced. If a control deck can board clear and then play a free 5/5, that seems pretty unfair. The opposite is true too. You finally clear the board of an aggro deck and they refill the board with a free 5/5 and other minions.
The easy balance is to make it friendly minions only instead. That means it's still powerful in aggro, but not in control decks too.
Patches is also a problem because the Pirate package is both good for aggro AND control. It's a free 1/1 with charge that helps control the board. Control decks are now using the Pirate package to fight against aggro and it removes a card from their deck, making their draws slightly more consistent.
Vilespine Slayer is fine. It's a 2 card requirement AND a terrible top deck. Rogues should be good at single minion removal.
Barnes is actually a problem as well. It's a high roll card that wins games on the spot. You hard mulligan for Barnes on turn 4 and you simply win for Big Priest. It's unfun to play against because you CAN'T kill their minions now. Barnes has other issues as well as the card pool expands, but will only be an issue in Wild later on. Not all classes or decks can play transform effects. And even if they do, decks tend to only have 2 to 4 at most.
The cards I have a problem with the most and that I think that are issues for the future of Hearthstone are the 'free' cards and the high roll cards. Some of the other high roll cards are (most of the random card generators) Babbling Book and Swashburgler. They are impossible to play around and some games you get some ridiculous card out of a 1 drop. And feels terrible when you get a completely useless card too.
I am ok with cards like Discover because it requires knowledge of the cards, game state and some skill is required if the cards are all good.
I am also ok with random effects if they come from your opponents hand or deck, like Crystalline Oracle. Knowing what's in your opponents deck is good, but your opponent CAN play around it, as they know whats in their deck. There is a skill factor for both players.
And Evolve is such a high roll card now that I hate playing with and against it. Oh look, I got a 7 drop, but its a 1/1. Evolve is a decently designed card in theory. It requires a board state AND another card (Evolve). Top decking the card is often terrible too. But because there are so many badly stated cards on most of the mana curve, you end up with a card that feels like an auto win or auto loss card.
I wish Hearthstone moved away from all the random effects and free cards.
Definition: "Dilemma" - "a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, especially equally undesirable ones" (i.e., Explosive Runes)
Definition: "counterplay - "opposing or contrasting play or an instance such as a countering move or maneuver in a game or competition."
Explain how the choice of losing a good minion or taking a fireball to the face is a "counterplay"
Also, why does it have to be a "good" minion that you're losing.
Also, why do you have to take a "fireball."
You're creating two false scenarios with the way you've tried to reduce and frame your argument.