A 3/4 body would be worth 3.00 mana in stats but the only 3 mana minion played for its stats alone is Blackwing Technician which is worth 3.50 mana. Hence the value of having your hero power cost reduced to 0 should be 2.00 to make up for the body.
Your hero power alone isn't worth 2.00 mana. The paladin's hero power is worth 0.50 mana in stats, so that if you were to play your hero power without any added value you would lose 1.50 mana worth of value.
You already pay for the inspire power in stats in Kodorider, which has a body worth 3.50 mana, but you have to deal with it so we should add the taunt value which is 0.50 mana for a total of 4.00 mana. A hero power for 0 mana allows us to play Kodorider on curve for a total value of 7.50 mana which means 1.50 more than its 6.00 mana cost. 1.50 < 2.00.
Let's still say you get to play Justicar Trueheart before one of your 2x Fencing Coach on half of your games. You get an increased value of 0.25. Even accounting only for the good half you are still 0.25 mana short.
If we also take into consideration the fact that there is value in tempo and that Fencing Coach hurts your deck's tempo by trading very poorly with minions which cost 3+ mana and even some 2 mana minions I think its safe to say that it should be at least a 3/2 and at best a 3/3. What do you think?
What you lose in tempo from first playing fencing coach you gain later on with its ability to combo with the inspire legendary cards. Fencing coach actually makes confessor paletress and wilfred fizzlebang somewhat playable because you no longer have to wait until turn 9 or 8 to abuse their huge inspire affects. If your hero power is instead used to heal AND summon a legendary minion then it is worth way more than the 3 mana it costs to play fencing coach, in addition to getting the 2/2 body.
I think with Fencing Coach we are witnessing a disconnect between Blizzard logic and in-game logic. Blizzard logic says that a hero power costs 2 mana, and a 2/2 is costs 1.0-1.5 mana. Packaging those together is very fair, especially sine you can combo Inspire effects with it on a later turn.
In-game logic says that a 2/2 costs 1.0-1.5 mana, but the hero power is really only worth 1 mana (hero powers are based on a 0 mana card, but we add 1 mana to that value because you don't actually spend a card for it). Not only that, but looking at overload, we can see that getting upfront value and paying later is worth more than the full mana cost would suggest (Lightning Storm isn't valued as a 5 mana card for example, but something a little cheaper than that) because of the early tempo that it awards you. Since we are paying the full cost of Fencing Coach + hero power upfront and getting the benefit later, it is worth even less than mana than what we calculated. You correctly pointed out all these factors in your analysis.
So yes, you are correct on this. Slightly off on the numbers (while a 3/4 costs 3 mana, that doesn't mean it is actually worth the full 3 mana since no one plays Spider Tank outside of mech decks), but very right on the conclusion. I wanted to see a Fencing Coach type minion to make Inspire worth it, but I think they made it just too weak.
As opposed to a turn 3 play where you hero power + play a 1 drop with an average of 3 stats, this card is far over budgeted. This card allows you on turn 3 to hero power + play a minion with a sum of 4 stats.
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I think with Fencing Coach we are witnessing a disconnect between Blizzard logic and in-game logic. Blizzard logic says that a hero power costs 2 mana, and a 2/2 is costs 1.0-1.5 mana. Packaging those together is very fair, especially sine you can combo Inspire effects with it on a later turn.
In-game logic says that a 2/2 costs 1.0-1.5 mana, but the hero power is really only worth 1 mana (hero powers are based on a 0 mana card, but we add 1 mana to that value because you don't actually spend a card for it). Not only that, but looking at overload, we can see that getting upfront value and paying later is worth more than the full mana cost would suggest (Lightning Storm isn't valued as a 5 mana card for example, but something a little cheaper than that) because of the early tempo that it awards you. Since we are paying the full cost of Fencing Coach + hero power upfront and getting the benefit later, it is worth even less than mana than what we calculated. You correctly pointed out all these factors in your analysis.
So yes, you are correct on this. Slightly off on the numbers (while a 3/4 costs 3 mana, that doesn't mean it is actually worth the full 3 mana since no one plays Spider Tank outside of mech decks), but very right on the conclusion. I wanted to see a Fencing Coach type minion to make Inspire worth it, but I think they made it just too weak.
Thank you for your helpful reply.
I was afraid I was valuing things wrongly and as you have pointed out the hero power is worth more than I suggested because it doesn't cost you a card. Perhaps I should review these numbers at a later time and get more familiar with this kind of analysis. I merely took the stat growth displayed by the minions and the increasing mana cost to be true to the mana value and hoped I would arrive at a fair outcome.
I believe its not too far from the truth, but I see how I haven't taken everything into consideration.
Yes it could have been a 2/3 or 3/2, but they back paddled this expansion pretty hard in terms of overall power / value, so they made it just "balanced". However, "balanced" is not enough nowadays, so it we perceive it as too weak. It isn't, just not OP.
It's obviously meant as combo card to front load your Hero Power cost to actually make use of inspire card(s) on curve.
I think if it had 3 stats anywhere, it would be a near auto-include for many new decks. It forces you to view his ability as an investment for another minion's ability, not for the face value.
Think of it this way: you're playing Murloc Paladin. Your turn 3 goes Fencing, followed by turn 4 Murloc Knight + Hero Power. For 7 mana on curve, you get a 1/1, a 2/2, a 3/4, and a random Murloc at roughly 2/2 stats, all of which is worth about (0 + 1.5 + 3 + 1.5 + Murloc Synergy + 2 Saved Deck Slots). Or Druid with Savage Combatant!
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He is underrated and if you're using inspire hes pretty much an auto include, or should be. 3 mana for a 2/2 which discounts your hero power by (1) if you want to look at it value wise. However, the fact that you can gain substantial value on curve from him makes his cost almost 100% irrelevant for what he provides you with.
Issue is you need to drop him at the right time, otherwise you lock your hero power down.
T5 Fencing Coach, T6 Fizzlebang > I AM MAL'GANIS, I AM A FUCKING SQUIRTLE!!!!!!
It took six fucking turns for the paladin player to finally do something right. Jesus.
EDIT: TURN SEVEN WTF
wow.. it's like.. they gave total newbies to play it.. who actually play it? it's terrible gameplay.. He got a 1/1 and let the loot hoarder live for like 10 turns. hhm so I have seal of light in my hand.. my opponent have a high valueinion with 2 hp on board oh I know SMorc.
on second thought maybe they are face hunter players .
Because Inspire and because, as much math as we can do, we aren't the designers. And most of the testers are pro players.
I'm struggling to see any kind of actual reason here. These look more like excuses. "Because... inspire and testers" is pretty vague and unconvincing. Testers overlook, misjudge, and otherwise fuck up all the time. Pro players or not, they're still human. Similarly, designers overlook, misjudge, and otherwise fuck up all the time.
Why is this card a 3 mana 2/2? Why isn't this card a 3 mana 2/3, or a 3 mana 3/2, or a 2 mana 2/2?
This card is designed as a combo enabler I think rather than an on curve minion. Specifically, I suspect the synergy with Wilfred Fizzlebang and Confessor Paletress was considered strongly in balancing this card. Additionally, the card is functionally a 1 mana 2/2 given that you get to bank 2 mana for a later combo. I think giving this card more aggressive stats would make it too easy to enable crazy things to happen late in the game while also dealing handily with the early game. That's something I'd be concerned about when only a few classes get access to really outlandish hero power related effects (Wilfred Fizzlebang isn't actually an inspire effect but is directly tied to hero power usage.)
Fencing Coach is probably either going to go in a deck that plans to somehow get value from hero-powering(a deck with inspire cards) or is not going to be played at all. Fencing Coach makes certain cards be playable 2 turns before they would normally be playable. He's almost like a mini-Dragon Consort in that sense.
I think that if there's a problem then the problem isnt with Fencing Coach in particular but with the idea that inspire cards should have a heavy penalty in their bodies in general.
Let's say a 2/2 body is worth 1.50 mana.
A 3/4 body would be worth 3.00 mana in stats but the only 3 mana minion played for its stats alone is Blackwing Technician which is worth 3.50 mana. Hence the value of having your hero power cost reduced to 0 should be 2.00 to make up for the body.
Your hero power alone isn't worth 2.00 mana. The paladin's hero power is worth 0.50 mana in stats, so that if you were to play your hero power without any added value you would lose 1.50 mana worth of value.
You already pay for the inspire power in stats in Kodorider, which has a body worth 3.50 mana, but you have to deal with it so we should add the taunt value which is 0.50 mana for a total of 4.00 mana. A hero power for 0 mana allows us to play Kodorider on curve for a total value of 7.50 mana which means 1.50 more than its 6.00 mana cost. 1.50 < 2.00.
Let's still say you get to play Justicar Trueheart before one of your 2x Fencing Coach on half of your games. You get an increased value of 0.25. Even accounting only for the good half you are still 0.25 mana short.
If we also take into consideration the fact that there is value in tempo and that Fencing Coach hurts your deck's tempo by trading very poorly with minions which cost 3+ mana and even some 2 mana minions I think its safe to say that it should be at least a 3/2 and at best a 3/3. What do you think?
Because Inspire and because, as much math as we can do, we aren't the designers. And most of the testers are pro players.
Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
What you lose in tempo from first playing fencing coach you gain later on with its ability to combo with the inspire legendary cards. Fencing coach actually makes confessor paletress and wilfred fizzlebang somewhat playable because you no longer have to wait until turn 9 or 8 to abuse their huge inspire affects. If your hero power is instead used to heal AND summon a legendary minion then it is worth way more than the 3 mana it costs to play fencing coach, in addition to getting the 2/2 body.
tell that to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Gfr5jOYrA
I think with Fencing Coach we are witnessing a disconnect between Blizzard logic and in-game logic. Blizzard logic says that a hero power costs 2 mana, and a 2/2 is costs 1.0-1.5 mana. Packaging those together is very fair, especially sine you can combo Inspire effects with it on a later turn.
In-game logic says that a 2/2 costs 1.0-1.5 mana, but the hero power is really only worth 1 mana (hero powers are based on a 0 mana card, but we add 1 mana to that value because you don't actually spend a card for it). Not only that, but looking at overload, we can see that getting upfront value and paying later is worth more than the full mana cost would suggest (Lightning Storm isn't valued as a 5 mana card for example, but something a little cheaper than that) because of the early tempo that it awards you. Since we are paying the full cost of Fencing Coach + hero power upfront and getting the benefit later, it is worth even less than mana than what we calculated. You correctly pointed out all these factors in your analysis.
So yes, you are correct on this. Slightly off on the numbers (while a 3/4 costs 3 mana, that doesn't mean it is actually worth the full 3 mana since no one plays Spider Tank outside of mech decks), but very right on the conclusion. I wanted to see a Fencing Coach type minion to make Inspire worth it, but I think they made it just too weak.
I watched the first min or so. It was painful.
As opposed to a turn 3 play where you hero power + play a 1 drop with an average of 3 stats, this card is far over budgeted. This card allows you on turn 3 to hero power + play a minion with a sum of 4 stats.
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Obviously Bots.
Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
Thank you for your helpful reply.
I was afraid I was valuing things wrongly and as you have pointed out the hero power is worth more than I suggested because it doesn't cost you a card. Perhaps I should review these numbers at a later time and get more familiar with this kind of analysis. I merely took the stat growth displayed by the minions and the increasing mana cost to be true to the mana value and hoped I would arrive at a fair outcome.
I believe its not too far from the truth, but I see how I haven't taken everything into consideration.
It took six fucking turns for the paladin player to finally do something right. Jesus.
EDIT: TURN SEVEN WTF
Spider Tank anyone?
Yes it could have been a 2/3 or 3/2, but they back paddled this expansion pretty hard in terms of overall power / value, so they made it just "balanced". However, "balanced" is not enough nowadays, so it we perceive it as too weak. It isn't, just not OP.
It's obviously meant as combo card to front load your Hero Power cost to actually make use of inspire card(s) on curve.
like many cards, it's good when used properly.
To keep the card in trend with the rest of the TGT cards....which is most cards in TGT is overbudgeted.
I think if it had 3 stats anywhere, it would be a near auto-include for many new decks. It forces you to view his ability as an investment for another minion's ability, not for the face value.
Think of it this way: you're playing Murloc Paladin. Your turn 3 goes Fencing, followed by turn 4 Murloc Knight + Hero Power. For 7 mana on curve, you get a 1/1, a 2/2, a 3/4, and a random Murloc at roughly 2/2 stats, all of which is worth about (0 + 1.5 + 3 + 1.5 + Murloc Synergy + 2 Saved Deck Slots). Or Druid with Savage Combatant!
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He is underrated and if you're using inspire hes pretty much an auto include, or should be. 3 mana for a 2/2 which discounts your hero power by (1) if you want to look at it value wise. However, the fact that you can gain substantial value on curve from him makes his cost almost 100% irrelevant for what he provides you with.
Issue is you need to drop him at the right time, otherwise you lock your hero power down.
T5 Fencing Coach, T6 Fizzlebang > I AM MAL'GANIS, I AM A FUCKING SQUIRTLE!!!!!!
wow.. it's like.. they gave total newbies to play it.. who actually play it? it's terrible gameplay.. He got a 1/1 and let the loot hoarder live for like 10 turns. hhm so I have seal of light in my hand.. my opponent have a high valueinion with 2 hp on board oh I know SMorc.
on second thought maybe they are face hunter players .
I'm struggling to see any kind of actual reason here. These look more like excuses. "Because... inspire and testers" is pretty vague and unconvincing. Testers overlook, misjudge, and otherwise fuck up all the time. Pro players or not, they're still human. Similarly, designers overlook, misjudge, and otherwise fuck up all the time.
Why is this card a 3 mana 2/2? Why isn't this card a 3 mana 2/3, or a 3 mana 3/2, or a 2 mana 2/2?
This card is designed as a combo enabler I think rather than an on curve minion. Specifically, I suspect the synergy with Wilfred Fizzlebang and Confessor Paletress was considered strongly in balancing this card. Additionally, the card is functionally a 1 mana 2/2 given that you get to bank 2 mana for a later combo. I think giving this card more aggressive stats would make it too easy to enable crazy things to happen late in the game while also dealing handily with the early game. That's something I'd be concerned about when only a few classes get access to really outlandish hero power related effects (Wilfred Fizzlebang isn't actually an inspire effect but is directly tied to hero power usage.)
curse you, made me watch the whorst HS vid ever.
need take time to make new pic and signature using the new cards.