I had a mage complete his C'thun on turn 7 today with only 6 cards left in his deck hehe, not sure the card is problematic but it sure is annoying when they get 3 of them in the early game
I think it is problematic. The Mouzaki combo decks in Wild is pretty disgusting as well, I never thought 2 Frostbolts would kill me from 30 health, but that bad boy does it before 10 mana!
I hate that Mouzaki was decent for a short time and then fell out favor. Neat card design but he doesn’t have the tools to exist in standard. Really none of the existing mage legendaries stand out as strong cards it seems.
It's a really awful card design. People shouldn't be dying on turn 7. OTK DH is very bad for the game too. Those types of decks where they do nothing but execute a game plan where you can't do anything but watch them kill you is not fun. It doesn't matter if it only works 45% of the time. It's basically a prolonged coin flip in your favour but there isn't really any big decisions going on.
I think the following decks are good design:
1. Miracle rogue. You draw a lot, play lots of cards, so lots of decisions to be made.
2. Midrange hunter. These decks since the introduction of buffing things in your deck and drawing them have always been interesting (started with zixor). The current beast hunter in standard isn't a great deck, but it's ok now they fixed mankirk. It is an interesting deck though and fun to play because you have to keep up the tempo and push your game plan forward while ensuring you are buffing the right things in your deck and pulling the right stuff out of your deck. Some may argue it's solitare in that sense, but it also has other decisions in relation to your discover effects and what you need to choose, as well as which minions to play and when. There are also decisions about when to go wide and when to hold back your tempo in case of clears.
3. Control decks like priest which execute long game plans. These decks are very difficult to play, as evidenced by priest in standard right now mostly having 40% - 45% win rates (or worse) yet some players are piloting those same decks to top 10 legend. Because it's complex with lots of decisions, it's an interesting and deep deck to play.
4. Aggro decks that fight for board and contain many nuanced decision making including down to minion placement. This is the traditional zoolock deck.
What is bad design is:
1. OTK decks where they just play solitaire.
2. Decks that kill you on turn 4 or 5 consistently enough where there isn't much you can do.
3. Tempo based decks that have no decision making and you are just playing curvestone. In these decks, there is usually only one clear play every turn and it is obvious. Obviously anyone can make a deck like this, but it shouldn't be a tier 1 deck.
4. A deck that is intended to be strong and is guaranteed to win against an entire class. An example of this in the past was freeze mage vs warrior. An example in the present is control warlock vs priest. It's ok if you have one archetype, especially a tier 3 or 4 archtype, that can have a near lock against another archetype of another class. It's not ok if you have a high tier 2 or tier 1 deck that is almost certainly guaranteed to win vs an entire class regardless of the archetype that class plays.
I agree with pretty much all of this. Hyper aggressive damage and ludicrously cheap card draw are the main issues.
Considering they printed Refreshing Spring Water I can only assume the have no intention of changing that.
It had existed for quite some time and the only reason it became a problem after the rotation is that it is no longer random. You can build your deck so that you know what to expect and actually have a game plan. By making all spells totally random there is no way to control what you'll get.
This way the card keeps being fun to play with without being a strong meta-warping effect.
I had a mage complete his C'thun on turn 7 today with only 6 cards left in his deck hehe, not sure the card is problematic but it sure is annoying when they get 3 of them in the early game
I think it is problematic. The Mouzaki combo decks in Wild is pretty disgusting as well, I never thought 2 Frostbolts would kill me from 30 health, but that bad boy does it before 10 mana!
I hate that Mouzaki was decent for a short time and then fell out favor. Neat card design but he doesn’t have the tools to exist in standard. Really none of the existing mage legendaries stand out as strong cards it seems.
It's a really awful card design. People shouldn't be dying on turn 7. OTK DH is very bad for the game too. Those types of decks where they do nothing but execute a game plan where you can't do anything but watch them kill you is not fun. It doesn't matter if it only works 45% of the time. It's basically a prolonged coin flip in your favour but there isn't really any big decisions going on.
I think the following decks are good design:
1. Miracle rogue. You draw a lot, play lots of cards, so lots of decisions to be made.
2. Midrange hunter. These decks since the introduction of buffing things in your deck and drawing them have always been interesting (started with zixor). The current beast hunter in standard isn't a great deck, but it's ok now they fixed mankirk. It is an interesting deck though and fun to play because you have to keep up the tempo and push your game plan forward while ensuring you are buffing the right things in your deck and pulling the right stuff out of your deck. Some may argue it's solitare in that sense, but it also has other decisions in relation to your discover effects and what you need to choose, as well as which minions to play and when. There are also decisions about when to go wide and when to hold back your tempo in case of clears.
3. Control decks like priest which execute long game plans. These decks are very difficult to play, as evidenced by priest in standard right now mostly having 40% - 45% win rates (or worse) yet some players are piloting those same decks to top 10 legend. Because it's complex with lots of decisions, it's an interesting and deep deck to play.
4. Aggro decks that fight for board and contain many nuanced decision making including down to minion placement. This is the traditional zoolock deck.
What is bad design is:
1. OTK decks where they just play solitaire.
2. Decks that kill you on turn 4 or 5 consistently enough where there isn't much you can do.
3. Tempo based decks that have no decision making and you are just playing curvestone. In these decks, there is usually only one clear play every turn and it is obvious. Obviously anyone can make a deck like this, but it shouldn't be a tier 1 deck.
4. A deck that is intended to be strong and is guaranteed to win against an entire class. An example of this in the past was freeze mage vs warrior. An example in the present is control warlock vs priest. It's ok if you have one archetype, especially a tier 3 or 4 archtype, that can have a near lock against another archetype of another class. It's not ok if you have a high tier 2 or tier 1 deck that is almost certainly guaranteed to win vs an entire class regardless of the archetype that class plays.
I would like to include:
-Hyper explosive Control decks like Naga druid and Big priest which make playing mid-range and tempo decks impossible. Big priest can now make 100 big taunts, based on only 5 minions, not even Jade Druid can keep up with that kind of value. The new Giant druid might be in this category as well, but Big shaman and Rogue might be ok.
I actually think Combo decks have a place in this game, but they must take enough time to set up and be hard to play, forcing tough decisions between defensive plays, draw and when to "go off."
It had existed for quite some time and the only reason it became a problem after the rotation is that it is no longer random. You can build your deck so that you know what to expect and actually have a game plan. By making all spells totally random there is no way to control what you'll get.
This way the card keeps being fun to play with without being a strong meta-warping effect.
how about if it transforms ALL cards in BOTH players decks into random spells that cost 3 more/less :D
why you think you can affect other players' cards is a good idea? If you can then whats the purpose of constructed? and buying packs. we will play random cards anyway.
Remember that deck of lunacy was only a decent card in a half bad deck, until Nagrand was 1/2 10 mana spells and "draw 2 for 0 mana" was a thing. If they reduce the generation to only be 2 mana more, Nagrand will be out and the deck will likely be where it used to be. Otherwise you could just bump up the cost of lunacy and spring water if you want a bit more even nerf to mage.
Of course paladins insane new weapon needs a nerf and probably a nerf for either jaraxxus or tickatus
The solution is simple: print more bad spells for other classes. :)
Stink up that pool.
It will be addressed before any further cards are added. Whilst your solution would take place naturally, it will be too slow.
A lot of the suggestions here are dead funny. I've seen a couple of good ones but the problem with 'nerf x' threads is people lose their shit and don't try to nerf a card, they make suggestions that totally change or kill it, so it's not very productive.
I don't mind the idea of them turning into any random spell and then reducing, I'm not totally sure how feasible/easy a change like this is but if it's possible then I thin it seems reasonable. You can still highroll but you can also low roll and turn your flame strike into a 0 cost 3 mana spell. You can't predict what they will turn into so it keeps the spirit of the card and would remain a card I'd be happy to play with. It might encourage a more small spell build, to try and guarantee you're getting equal or better value on the transformed cards.
Upping the mana cost doesn't do much because that doesn't address any potential issues, it just 'maybe' slows it down. You could have it as spells that cost 2 less but again, you can rejig the deck to still get an element of control over the outcome.
The solution is simple: print more bad spells for other classes. :)
Stink up that pool.
It will be addressed before any further cards are added. Whilst your solution would take place naturally, it will be too slow.
A lot of the suggestions here are dead funny. I've seen a couple of good ones but the problem with 'nerf x' threads is people lose their shit and don't try to nerf a card, they make suggestions that totally change or kill it, so it's not very productive.
I don't mind the idea of them turning into any random spell and then reducing, I'm not totally sure how feasible/easy a change like this is but if it's possible then I thin it seems reasonable. You can still highroll but you can also low roll and turn your flame strike into a 0 cost 3 mana spell. You can't predict what they will turn into so it keeps the spirit of the card and would remain a card I'd be happy to play with. It might encourage a more small spell build, to try and guarantee you're getting equal or better value on the transformed cards.
Upping the mana cost doesn't do much because that doesn't address any potential issues, it just 'maybe' slows it down. You could have it as spells that cost 2 less but again, you can rejig the deck to still get an element of control over the outcome.
Actually, I was just being facetious. Obviously, the pool will become polluted over time, but nobody is going to wait that long.
I guess the best idea so far is just make the spells totally random and reduce the cost. At least this way there will be no consistency for the competitive decks to make use of. I mean, you can still roll into a Nagrand Slam, but at least you won't have an X-Y% chance of getting it anymore.
I just hope they don't completely obliterate this deck, because I like it so much.
It's not just Lunacy and Spring Water that's the problem its she sheer amount of burst damage the class has aswell. Apexis Blast, Fireball, Mask of C'thun that's 42 damage majority all going face and that's not even including the spell damage minions. Apparently Blizzard have cut back the burst damage this expansion tho. Ha, fuckin' bullshit.
1. Turn all spells in your deck into ones that cost up to (3) more. (They keep their original cost.)
This means that it is truly random, you can't tailor your deck with 7 mana spells because they could just transform into random 7 (+0), 8 (+1), 9 (+2) or 10 (+3) mana spells. This keeps the meme utility of the card alive because you truly won't know what you are getting and it removes all competitive viability of a "random" deck.
My Renounce Darkness-like suggestion is:
2. Turn all spells in your deck into ones that cost (3) more into ones from a random class. (They keep their original cost.)
This means all spells will be turned into ones from a single other class, so maybe only Priest spells instead of a mix of all classes. If Priest does not have a 10 mana card then the highest possible mana spell is given (within +3 mana).
Lunacy is just the tip of the iceberg, the whole mage RNG is hilariously rigged, the highrolls are too consistent.
How do they even begin to fix this? They cant just change every mage card that gives random stuff right?
Maybe they can introduce more garbage spells/minions in the core set, its free so they can change it anytime w/o giving ppl dust etc, that would make more sense imo.
This card saw zero play before this expansion for a reason. I feel like nerfing it really just serves no purpose. It’s a card that will eventually again see no play due to lack of consistency. Meanwhile you have busted cards like Tickatus, the Paladin sword that plays secrets, pen flinger, oh my yogg, among others that will continue to be busted if they aren’t smacked down. If they’re gonna devote resources to nerfs they should focus on things that are busted by design and not things that are above average due to circumstance.
outside of spell mage, the class is dumpster tier I think. And despite claims it’s a good deck without lunacy, I’m not so sure. Mage has no healing. They lost a good chunk of stall power in the rotation, and on top of that control lock is a thing which craps on every slow deck which is what spell mage is without lunacy.
Its not a dumpster. Mordresh mage is a thing, both minion based and more classical one. Tempo mage was also taking high legend rank.
It’s a thing but it’s too slow so it gets destroyed on one end by aggro and the other end by warlocks and doesn’t feel like it has enough of a mid game plan to fight for the middle. If you don’t draw your wildfire the deck is very weak. I’ve been running it since the expansion dropped. Still working on my list. It’s probably a tier 3 deck at best right now.
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I would kill Paladin (Weapon, Pen Flinger, Librams) first. It currently surpresses decks that would keep Lunacy in check.
I agree with pretty much all of this. Hyper aggressive damage and ludicrously cheap card draw are the main issues.
Considering they printed Refreshing Spring Water I can only assume the have no intention of changing that.
I’m eating mages for lunch meanwhile paladins are running wild on a one way express pass to legend and no one is saying much about that...
I did in Post #22
how about if it transforms ALL cards in BOTH players decks into random spells that cost 3 more/less :D
how about no?
Deck of Lunacy should transform your spells into entirely random spells and then reduce their cost, like Renounce Darkness.
It had existed for quite some time and the only reason it became a problem after the rotation is that it is no longer random. You can build your deck so that you know what to expect and actually have a game plan. By making all spells totally random there is no way to control what you'll get.
This way the card keeps being fun to play with without being a strong meta-warping effect.
I would like to include:
-Hyper explosive Control decks like Naga druid and Big priest which make playing mid-range and tempo decks impossible. Big priest can now make 100 big taunts, based on only 5 minions, not even Jade Druid can keep up with that kind of value. The new Giant druid might be in this category as well, but Big shaman and Rogue might be ok.
I actually think Combo decks have a place in this game, but they must take enough time to set up and be hard to play, forcing tough decisions between defensive plays, draw and when to "go off."
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
this is the best suggestion that I've ever heard.
why you think you can affect other players' cards is a good idea? If you can then whats the purpose of constructed? and buying packs. we will play random cards anyway.
Remember that deck of lunacy was only a decent card in a half bad deck, until Nagrand was 1/2 10 mana spells and "draw 2 for 0 mana" was a thing. If they reduce the generation to only be 2 mana more, Nagrand will be out and the deck will likely be where it used to be. Otherwise you could just bump up the cost of lunacy and spring water if you want a bit more even nerf to mage.
Of course paladins insane new weapon needs a nerf and probably a nerf for either jaraxxus or tickatus
The solution is simple: print more bad spells for other classes. :)
Stink up that pool.
It will be addressed before any further cards are added. Whilst your solution would take place naturally, it will be too slow.
A lot of the suggestions here are dead funny. I've seen a couple of good ones but the problem with 'nerf x' threads is people lose their shit and don't try to nerf a card, they make suggestions that totally change or kill it, so it's not very productive.
I don't mind the idea of them turning into any random spell and then reducing, I'm not totally sure how feasible/easy a change like this is but if it's possible then I thin it seems reasonable. You can still highroll but you can also low roll and turn your flame strike into a 0 cost 3 mana spell. You can't predict what they will turn into so it keeps the spirit of the card and would remain a card I'd be happy to play with. It might encourage a more small spell build, to try and guarantee you're getting equal or better value on the transformed cards.
Upping the mana cost doesn't do much because that doesn't address any potential issues, it just 'maybe' slows it down. You could have it as spells that cost 2 less but again, you can rejig the deck to still get an element of control over the outcome.
Actually, I was just being facetious. Obviously, the pool will become polluted over time, but nobody is going to wait that long.
I guess the best idea so far is just make the spells totally random and reduce the cost. At least this way there will be no consistency for the competitive decks to make use of. I mean, you can still roll into a Nagrand Slam, but at least you won't have an X-Y% chance of getting it anymore.
I just hope they don't completely obliterate this deck, because I like it so much.
It's not just Lunacy and Spring Water that's the problem its she sheer amount of burst damage the class has aswell. Apexis Blast, Fireball, Mask of C'thun that's 42 damage majority all going face and that's not even including the spell damage minions. Apparently Blizzard have cut back the burst damage this expansion tho. Ha, fuckin' bullshit.
Two suggestions:
1. Turn all spells in your deck into ones that cost up to (3) more. (They keep their original cost.)
This means that it is truly random, you can't tailor your deck with 7 mana spells because they could just transform into random 7 (+0), 8 (+1), 9 (+2) or 10 (+3) mana spells.
This keeps the meme utility of the card alive because you truly won't know what you are getting and it removes all competitive viability of a "random" deck.
My Renounce Darkness-like suggestion is:
2. Turn all spells in your deck into ones that cost (3) more into ones from a random class. (They keep their original cost.)
This means all spells will be turned into ones from a single other class, so maybe only Priest spells instead of a mix of all classes. If Priest does not have a 10 mana card then the highest possible mana spell is given (within +3 mana).
People want a nerf to Deck of Lunacy?
I didn't realise it was an extended 1st April... lol
Who seriously has trouble beating Bargain Basement Tier Spell Mage?
Lunacy is just the tip of the iceberg, the whole mage RNG is hilariously rigged, the highrolls are too consistent.
How do they even begin to fix this? They cant just change every mage card that gives random stuff right?
Maybe they can introduce more garbage spells/minions in the core set, its free so they can change it anytime w/o giving ppl dust etc, that would make more sense imo.
I agree with the dude that said nerfing pally tools would help free up other decks that suppress DoL decks.
excited to see what the REAL meta looks like after this ridiculousness is resolved.
btw.. if you hit legend with the DoL deck Yogg said it doesn’t count.
It’s a thing but it’s too slow so it gets destroyed on one end by aggro and the other end by warlocks and doesn’t feel like it has enough of a mid game plan to fight for the middle. If you don’t draw your wildfire the deck is very weak. I’ve been running it since the expansion dropped. Still working on my list. It’s probably a tier 3 deck at best right now.