We all know a set of nerfs is coming during mid-term, it's always been that way. So what about guessing them?
Ofc, we can discuss the guesses, but i will take care to report anything that is not kept quiet and constructive. We can argue without flaming.
Each answer is meant to be divided in 2 parts:
1) what cards do you think will be hit? Please be honest, don't tap into hate only
2) how do you think those cards will be hit?
-----
So for me:
#1 Possessed Lackey: mana cost increased to (6) (it is not just a mana cheat, but also a selective draw cheat. Imo, it would be OP even at (6))
#2 Spiteful Summoner: mana cost to (8). (value would still be there)
#3 Call to Arms: recruit 2 (2) minions. (The card is too dominant and staple, while increasing its mana cost to odd value would probably kill Even Paladin, which is not the point)
#4 Divine Favor: mana cost to (5). (Aggro decks should not be able to have an efficient draw system).
#5 Naga Sea Witch: mana cost increased to (8) (the deck would still be playable, but more vulnerable to burn, as any other combo deck).
-----
All these nerfs should still keep the affected decks as powerful, but more vulnerable to other strategies, namely Midrange variations, without the latter being warped around specific but boring mana cheating strategies.
What do you bet?
Please, keep it easy. I repeat: THIS IS NO SALTY THREAD.
It is meant for discussion about possible nerfs, and above all it is meant to be CONSTRUCTIVE.
After the nerfs kick in, we'll see who was the wisest of us at guessing. :)
1) Call to Arms. Maybe recruit 2 minions that cost 2 or less, or keep a similar power-level but increase variance by making it 2 minions that cost 3 or less.
2) Spiteful summoner. Cost increase and/or stats reduction. Or maybe burn the revealed spell ?
3) Something in cubelock, no idea what precisely. Carnivorous cube ? Lackey ? Doomguard ? Skull ? Dark pact ?
4) Maybe Guldan DK, reducing hero power to 2 damage.
I'd rather see some buffs on unpopular classes than some nerfs on popular ones.
Spiteful get a 4-4 and a 12-12 and turn 5/6. Quest Rogues get a deck full of 1 mana 5-5 on turn 5. Hits you with 10 1mana 5-5 boards each turn. Druids spawn countless full boards of Taunts with Hadronox Cube. Paladins and Hunters kill you within 5 turns. Mages ignore anything that happens on the board and spam the most powerful spells they can discover to your face.
All meta decks have some very powerful and annoying tools. But most people are not being fair because they complain only about the decks that hard counter the one they play the most.
I think cubelock needs a nerf since it prevent control decks from existing. I do not agree that Lackey, Dark pact, Voidlord or Cube needs a nerf since they never seem problematic to me. My nerf would be to Doomguard - either make it rush instead of charge or make it Battlecry: Discard 2 cards gain charge. This way the resummoned 7 doomguards wont kill you in one turn.
1) Call to Arms should keep the effect, but perhaps adjust the mana cost to either 5 or 6. Coin it out on turn 4 if you must, but atm it's just a little too oppressive (more-so pre-rotation than now).
2) Spiteful Summoner should consume the card that gets pulled from the deck. I don't care if it stays the same otherwise.
3) Voidlord could use an adjustment, but I'm not sure in which direction. Maybe just 2 Voidwalker spawns or reduce the health of Voidlord to 6/7.
4) Carnivorous Cube could stand to have it's mana increased to 6 or 7. Also, IFDoomguard (or any charge minion for that matter) is the destroyed minion they shouldn't have charge upon being summoned.
After typing these out, I feel that some of these nerfs would be too harsh and kill most of the leading archetypes outright. I'm just a disgruntled Hearthstone addict, don't mind me.
I'd like warlock hero card nerfed from 3 to 2 damage. It's almost impossible in any control scenario to outvalue that hero power, if the warlock you are playing against is competent.
I'd also like doomguard to be changed from Charge, Battle Cry: Discard two cards > Battle Cry: Discard Two Cards and Gain Charge.
Call to Arms i'm not sure what to change on because simply upping the mana cost by 1 is a huge buff to odd paladin, and nerfing the amount of minions it draws out by 1 will kill the card.
And most obvious nerf to spiteful summoner would be burning the spell that is used to summon the minion. This allows the card to retain power, while still having a downside.
1. Possessed Lackey: Summon a random demon from your deck that costs (8) or less (I know it's not very logical, but Blizzards nerfs often aren't)
Amm it's true, that this change will affect the win-rate against aggro MUs negatively, but it will drastically increase it against slower decks. With your nerf idea you are always destined to summon a Doomguard from your deck. Imho this isn't a good change, because it will make the deck even more polarizing (just how pre-nerfed QR was back in Un'Goro).
1. Possessed Lackey: Summon a random demon from your deck that costs (8) or less (I know it's not very logical, but Blizzards nerfs often aren't)
Amm, this change will affect the win-rate against aggro MUs negatively, but it will drastically increase it against slower decks. With your change you are destined to summon a Doomguard. Imho this isn't that good, because it will make the deck even more polarizing (just how pre-nerfed QR was back in Un'Goro).
Like I said, it's not very logical, but I see it happening
make Spiteful Summoner summon a respective dedicated scaling minion with atk and health mirroring cost of the spell that is 'battlecried' (ie: a 10/10 for UI)
I'd be guessing that they'd hit the highest performing decks so..
Warlock:
- Doomguard gains charge as part of the battlecry. OR Carnivorous Cube gets hit to keep taunt druids in check as well. not sure how they'd change cube tho.
Paladin:
Issue is even if you remove some of the aggro tools, there's both even and odd paladin to worry about, and a lot of their cards are easily replaced by other cards. I figure they'd hit something mayor for both.
even paladin: Call to Arms recruits only 1-cost minions. this way even paladin can't run it and neither can odd paladin. the card is so busted being able to thin out your deck anyways so it's fair imo.
odd paladin: this one is more of a wish than a realistic guess, but the upgraded hero power should summon a 2/2. most odd paladin cards are fairly standard in terms of power, and are only extremely powerful due to the upgraded hero power being able to summon 2 minions instead of 1. this would slow them down enough for it to still be strong, but not insane. they probly won't do this, so my 2nd guess for this archetype is that they nerf Divine Favor. 5 mana seems like a fair cost.
Neutrals:
There's only 1 neutral that is really an issue: Spiteful Summoner because of the standard rotation, all the low base statted old gods have disappeared. and as such at the very least you get an 8/8 out of this, with a fairly big change to get a 12/12. it can decide games easily, by forcing your opponent to throw as much as they can into a generated minion, which leaves the player who summoned spiteful with their card advantage and still a 4/4 on the board. Bc of this spiteful druid has gone crazy, and although spiteful priest is not as prevalent anymore, it can still compete.
Spiteful Summoner reveal a card in your deck and if it costs 5 or more, you summon a random 5/6-cost minion.
Wild
Naga Sea Witch reverted to what it used to be. the whole giants steamroll gamble is just stupid, and is hurting wild too much imo.
bc of the shudderwock TTK deck. and I know the deck isn't even remotely good. but if it remains unchanged eventually shaman could have enough tools to become broken, if not, then this type of deck will have completely limited control shaman's design space due to the fear of it becoming too strong of a TTK deck. So yeah, not bc it's broken now (which it isn't) but rather bc it can easily become broken with future expansions.
I'd rather see some buffs on unpopular classes than some nerfs on popular ones.
Spiteful get a 4-4 and a 12-12 and turn 5/6. Quest Rogues get a deck full of 1 mana 5-5 on turn 5. Hits you with 10 1mana 5-5 boards each turn. Druids spawn countless full boards of Taunts with Hadronox Cube. Paladins and Hunters kill you within 5 turns. Mages ignore anything that happens on the board and spam the most powerful spells they can discover to your face.
All meta decks have some very powerful and annoying tools. But most people are not being fair because they complain only about the decks that hard counter the one they play the most.
Blizzard doesn't buff any cards. That's their policy
For my money I'd like to see nerfs to mana cheat cards the most. The way mana works is at the core of the game and being able to reliably cheat out a taunt wall or 16/16 of stats on turn 5-6 totally skews the game. Ramp (i.e. druid) is one thing, it's slow and costs card advantage, but what we have currently are cards that don't restrict your ability to interact with the early board or cost extra cards.
Changing Lackey's deathrattle to summon a random demon (maybe with a small stat boost) is a change I'd like to see, likewise on Skull of the Man'ari (since just nerfing Lackey would just bring Skull back into the game). Spiteful either needs to cost a couple mana more or be made more inconsistent somehow (e.g. summon a minion up to the cost of the revealed spell). Naga just needs changing back to how she was.
Of course nerfing cubelock means nerfing paladin hard as well (else it'd just have full rein). Call to Arms is an obvious candidate as is Sunkeeper Tarim imo. Honestly I really doubt they'd nerf divine favour instead of hall of fame-ing it plus I'm not sure it'd do enough to lower Bakudin's power level. It's hard to say what's needed there but Blessing of might and Argent Protector both seem problematic in the context of that deck.
What'd be really nice would be seeing buffs for struggling classes like shaman, warrior, and hunter (I know, not effing likely). Warrior just needs an actual win condition that's better than the quest, hunter -the aggro class- has no real ability to take the early board currently, and shaman is just a mess.
All that in mind what actually seems likely (based on nerf history) is that they'll lean towards 1 point mana increases and may throw some pretty unexpected choices in there. My expectations are we'll see something along the lines of "Call to Arms now costs 5, Spiteful Summoner now costs 7, Possessed Lackey now costs 6, Stonehill Defender is now a 4 mana 2/4, Defile now costs 3, Sword of Justice now has 1 less durability and/ or 0 attack". They'll likely disregard wild balance and Sea Witch will remain a thing.
Nerf Bloodraver Gul'dan????? Are you serious??? He is strongest DK with reason!!!
Nerf Doomguard???? Card is in game from begining and never was a problem till CUBE didnt came out so cube is problem.. with nerf on cube you will nerf taunt druid AND cubelock...so dark pact dont need nerf...drawback is huge (destroying your own minion) but yes its only good with cube so CUBE is problem like i said before...
Say whatever you want but i will defend my fauvorite class/character as much as i can. And no, i dont play cubelock!!
Most of the posts so far are pretty much : "make Cubelock unplayable".
Super productive.
That's not accurate at all, basically every post mentions paladin changescand/ or Spiteful Summoner nerfs too. Perhaps it would be productive to explain why you dislike the warlock nerfs people are mentioning (many posts are only prediticons after all) and suggest nerfs you think would be better.
I think it's fair to say the deck needs some changes, it remained dominant through a rotation and will stay that way for the next year unless either it's power level is reduced or something even more powerful gets added in an xpac and forces it out.
DISCLAIMER: this is no salty or whiny thread.
We all know a set of nerfs is coming during mid-term, it's always been that way. So what about guessing them?
Ofc, we can discuss the guesses, but i will take care to report anything that is not kept quiet and constructive. We can argue without flaming.
Each answer is meant to be divided in 2 parts:
1) what cards do you think will be hit? Please be honest, don't tap into hate only
2) how do you think those cards will be hit?
-----
So for me:
#1 Possessed Lackey: mana cost increased to (6) (it is not just a mana cheat, but also a selective draw cheat. Imo, it would be OP even at (6))
#2 Spiteful Summoner: mana cost to (8). (value would still be there)
#3 Call to Arms: recruit 2 (2) minions. (The card is too dominant and staple, while increasing its mana cost to odd value would probably kill Even Paladin, which is not the point)
#4 Divine Favor: mana cost to (5). (Aggro decks should not be able to have an efficient draw system).
#5 Naga Sea Witch: mana cost increased to (8) (the deck would still be playable, but more vulnerable to burn, as any other combo deck).
-----
All these nerfs should still keep the affected decks as powerful, but more vulnerable to other strategies, namely Midrange variations, without the latter being warped around specific but boring mana cheating strategies.
What do you bet?
Please, keep it easy. I repeat: THIS IS NO SALTY THREAD.
It is meant for discussion about possible nerfs, and above all it is meant to be CONSTRUCTIVE.
After the nerfs kick in, we'll see who was the wisest of us at guessing. :)
Thanks.
IMO :
1) Call to Arms. Maybe recruit 2 minions that cost 2 or less, or keep a similar power-level but increase variance by making it 2 minions that cost 3 or less.
2) Spiteful summoner. Cost increase and/or stats reduction. Or maybe burn the revealed spell ?
3) Something in cubelock, no idea what precisely. Carnivorous cube ? Lackey ? Doomguard ? Skull ? Dark pact ?
4) Maybe Guldan DK, reducing hero power to 2 damage.
I'd rather see some buffs on unpopular classes than some nerfs on popular ones.
Spiteful get a 4-4 and a 12-12 and turn 5/6.
Quest Rogues get a deck full of 1 mana 5-5 on turn 5. Hits you with 10 1mana 5-5 boards each turn.
Druids spawn countless full boards of Taunts with Hadronox Cube.
Paladins and Hunters kill you within 5 turns.
Mages ignore anything that happens on the board and spam the most powerful spells they can discover to your face.
All meta decks have some very powerful and annoying tools. But most people are not being fair because they complain only about the decks that hard counter the one they play the most.
I think cubelock needs a nerf since it prevent control decks from existing. I do not agree that Lackey, Dark pact, Voidlord or Cube needs a nerf since they never seem problematic to me. My nerf would be to Doomguard - either make it rush instead of charge or make it Battlecry: Discard 2 cards gain charge. This way the resummoned 7 doomguards wont kill you in one turn.
For me Possessed Lackey will get the Warsong Commander nerf bat and he should. I'm tired of seeing stupid mechanics, which help the player to cheat out too many stats early on. This was the case with Innervate, Barnes + Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound and now the lackey/Spiteful Summoner. So imho the lackey should just go. Period.
I can't think of the appropriate nerf, but maybe - recruit a demon, which costs 4 or less.
OP, your idea about Spiteful is nice. I also think, that this is the right call.
Your idea about Call to Arms' change is also nice. I don't know if aggro/mid-range decks would use it, but control and combo will most definitely do.
As for the Naga Sea Witch - I like it too. Turn 8 is way more fair to play those in comparison to turn 5.
1) Call to Arms should keep the effect, but perhaps adjust the mana cost to either 5 or 6. Coin it out on turn 4 if you must, but atm it's just a little too oppressive (more-so pre-rotation than now).
2) Spiteful Summoner should consume the card that gets pulled from the deck. I don't care if it stays the same otherwise.
3) Voidlord could use an adjustment, but I'm not sure in which direction. Maybe just 2 Voidwalker spawns or reduce the health of Voidlord to 6/7.
4) Carnivorous Cube could stand to have it's mana increased to 6 or 7. Also, IF Doomguard (or any charge minion for that matter) is the destroyed minion they shouldn't have charge upon being summoned.
*Bonus: Naturalize can only target enemy minions.
After typing these out, I feel that some of these nerfs would be too harsh and kill most of the leading archetypes outright. I'm just a disgruntled Hearthstone addict, don't mind me.
edit: typos
1. Possessed Lackey: Summon a random demon from your deck that costs (8) or less (I know it's not very logical, but Blizzards nerfs often aren't)
2. Call to Arms: 5 mana instead (which I see as a good nerf)
3. Carnivorous Cube: resummon 1 copy instead of two
I don't think much more. They won't go overboard with the nerfs.
Fuck cubelock
I'd like warlock hero card nerfed from 3 to 2 damage. It's almost impossible in any control scenario to outvalue that hero power, if the warlock you are playing against is competent.
I'd also like doomguard to be changed from Charge, Battle Cry: Discard two cards > Battle Cry: Discard Two Cards and Gain Charge.
Call to Arms i'm not sure what to change on because simply upping the mana cost by 1 is a huge buff to odd paladin, and nerfing the amount of minions it draws out by 1 will kill the card.
And most obvious nerf to spiteful summoner would be burning the spell that is used to summon the minion. This allows the card to retain power, while still having a downside.
Oh yes, and I also think they will (or atleast should) change naga sea witch back. I also think Tarim deserves a nerf, but they won't touch him
Fuck cubelock
Amm it's true, that this change will affect the win-rate against aggro MUs negatively, but it will drastically increase it against slower decks. With your nerf idea you are always destined to summon a Doomguard from your deck. Imho this isn't a good change, because it will make the deck even more polarizing (just how pre-nerfed QR was back in Un'Goro).
Fuck cubelock
make Spiteful Summoner summon a respective dedicated scaling minion with atk and health mirroring cost of the spell that is 'battlecried' (ie: a 10/10 for UI)
Most of the posts so far are pretty much : "make Cubelock unplayable".
Super productive.
For me:
Carnivorous Cube
Bloodreaver Gul'dan
Hadronox
and other (future) mechanism that allow in easy way to rotate dead, powerful minions.
Spitefull Summoner is an easy-peasy compared with these tree cards above.
I'd be guessing that they'd hit the highest performing decks so..
Warlock:
- Doomguard gains charge as part of the battlecry. OR Carnivorous Cube gets hit to keep taunt druids in check as well. not sure how they'd change cube tho.
Paladin:
Issue is even if you remove some of the aggro tools, there's both even and odd paladin to worry about, and a lot of their cards are easily replaced by other cards. I figure they'd hit something mayor for both.
even paladin: Call to Arms recruits only 1-cost minions. this way even paladin can't run it and neither can odd paladin. the card is so busted being able to thin out your deck anyways so it's fair imo.
odd paladin: this one is more of a wish than a realistic guess, but the upgraded hero power should summon a 2/2. most odd paladin cards are fairly standard in terms of power, and are only extremely powerful due to the upgraded hero power being able to summon 2 minions instead of 1. this would slow them down enough for it to still be strong, but not insane. they probly won't do this, so my 2nd guess for this archetype is that they nerf Divine Favor. 5 mana seems like a fair cost.
Neutrals:
There's only 1 neutral that is really an issue: Spiteful Summoner because of the standard rotation, all the low base statted old gods have disappeared. and as such at the very least you get an 8/8 out of this, with a fairly big change to get a 12/12. it can decide games easily, by forcing your opponent to throw as much as they can into a generated minion, which leaves the player who summoned spiteful with their card advantage and still a 4/4 on the board. Bc of this spiteful druid has gone crazy, and although spiteful priest is not as prevalent anymore, it can still compete.
Spiteful Summoner reveal a card in your deck and if it costs 5 or more, you summon a random 5/6-cost minion.
Wild
Naga Sea Witch reverted to what it used to be. the whole giants steamroll gamble is just stupid, and is hurting wild too much imo.
Some other potential nerfs:
Grumble, Worldshaker:Return your other elementals instead of all minions.
bc of the shudderwock TTK deck. and I know the deck isn't even remotely good. but if it remains unchanged eventually shaman could have enough tools to become broken, if not, then this type of deck will have completely limited control shaman's design space due to the fear of it becoming too strong of a TTK deck. So yeah, not bc it's broken now (which it isn't) but rather bc it can easily become broken with future expansions.
Why u hav to be mad? is only card gaem.
For my money I'd like to see nerfs to mana cheat cards the most. The way mana works is at the core of the game and being able to reliably cheat out a taunt wall or 16/16 of stats on turn 5-6 totally skews the game. Ramp (i.e. druid) is one thing, it's slow and costs card advantage, but what we have currently are cards that don't restrict your ability to interact with the early board or cost extra cards.
Changing Lackey's deathrattle to summon a random demon (maybe with a small stat boost) is a change I'd like to see, likewise on Skull of the Man'ari (since just nerfing Lackey would just bring Skull back into the game). Spiteful either needs to cost a couple mana more or be made more inconsistent somehow (e.g. summon a minion up to the cost of the revealed spell). Naga just needs changing back to how she was.
Of course nerfing cubelock means nerfing paladin hard as well (else it'd just have full rein). Call to Arms is an obvious candidate as is Sunkeeper Tarim imo. Honestly I really doubt they'd nerf divine favour instead of hall of fame-ing it plus I'm not sure it'd do enough to lower Bakudin's power level. It's hard to say what's needed there but Blessing of might and Argent Protector both seem problematic in the context of that deck.
What'd be really nice would be seeing buffs for struggling classes like shaman, warrior, and hunter (I know, not effing likely). Warrior just needs an actual win condition that's better than the quest, hunter -the aggro class- has no real ability to take the early board currently, and shaman is just a mess.
All that in mind what actually seems likely (based on nerf history) is that they'll lean towards 1 point mana increases and may throw some pretty unexpected choices in there. My expectations are we'll see something along the lines of "Call to Arms now costs 5, Spiteful Summoner now costs 7, Possessed Lackey now costs 6, Stonehill Defender is now a 4 mana 2/4, Defile now costs 3, Sword of Justice now has 1 less durability and/ or 0 attack". They'll likely disregard wild balance and Sea Witch will remain a thing.
Nerf Bloodraver Gul'dan????? Are you serious??? He is strongest DK with reason!!!
Nerf Doomguard???? Card is in game from begining and never was a problem till CUBE didnt came out so cube is problem.. with nerf on cube you will nerf taunt druid AND cubelock...so dark pact dont need nerf...drawback is huge (destroying your own minion) but yes its only good with cube so CUBE is problem like i said before...
Say whatever you want but i will defend my fauvorite class/character as much as i can. And no, i dont play cubelock!!