Hearthstone has had many problems throughout it's lifespan and there will always be problems no doubt in that. I think we can all agree on one of the current problems and that is discover. Discovering needs to be possible only on gimmick cards with specific drawbacks or limitations, card like suspicious alchemist, flowrider, tooth of nefarian are perfect examples of such cards. They also need to be limited in number and very rarely be in the neutural card pool, if ever.
Now we have gotten to a point where you can generate stuff over and over and over even in aggro decks. This is a huge problem and makes deckbuilding pointless if you just can spew out new stuff over and over. It also makes legendaries obsolete since you can get several of them in the same game.
We need a massive overhaul before it' too late. Significantly nerf cards make the strong swing turn cards gimmicky and counterable with tech cards. Add new tech cards to the game. Make theo 5 mana again. Make the game interactive. More tech cards more denial. Also remove aoe removals almost completely unless they also are gimmiky. Playing 1 card to remove 7 without any requiremenets except mana should not be possible if not extremely rarely. Brawl is an excellent card which has a potential big drawback, its fun and more interactive than just wiping the whole board with 0 risk. Fight over me is also excellent and requires thoughtfull play.
Summary: Stop printing bs cards you can play with 0 risk or thought. Make strong cards counterable with a big gimmick instead of just insta playing it like a robot. Discover needs to be adressed first and utmost before it even spirals more out of control and becomes even a bigger problem. Inifnite card generation is not fun. Thanks
I agree (to a point), but I think it's more nuanced than "discover is bad". The problem (as I see it) is that discover is baked into something else, often with minimal loss of tempo, stats or damage. Couple this with the relatively small discover pool (which is also particularly strong for DK), and it feels as though discovered cards often end up being the key cards in a game.
There often no reason not to play them on curve, and the discover can always help out in an pinch.
Interestingly cards like Ghost Writer, Dispossessed Soul and Drakonid Operative dont feel nearly as bad (to me). Either thats due to the slightly higher mana cost (which limits their usefulness for the discovered card) or due to the higher bar for the condition, but maye this is the direction discover should take if Blizz is determined to keep it in the game.
I do feel like discover cards shoulnd't be able to discover other discover cards, but maybe that's just taking things too far...
What I agree with 100% is that resources need to start being meaningful again. You shouldn't just be able to dump your hand, re-fill and repeat. That doesn't encourage any sort of stategy (in much the same way as "me go face" shouldn't really be a viable approach to the game).
Honestly there are much bigger problems in the format right now than Discover. Namely the fact the top decks survived a rotation untouched, and are top tier decks in current meta without any alteration. This has greatly robbed me of my enjoyment of this meta, because it just feels like the last meta but with fewer options.
I don't think Discover itself is a problem, though there are perhaps too many strong Discover cards in the game. The mana cost or stat penalty associated with it could probably stand to be increased, or they could attach it to other keywords like Manathirst or Finale to make it more conditional.
Discover is also usually strongest at the start of a Standard Rotation since the pool is smaller, and gets worse as more cards release and consistency drops. DK also has a relatively small Discover pool and a lot of good Discover cards that let them fairly reliably target specific cards.
That said, it does kinda bug me how often the game now revolves around playing cards that you didn't actually put in your deck. That and how many decks revolve around cheating out big minions and spells.
mana cheat is still the biggest offender in this game by far. Kripp told them 6 years ago that it would eventually ruin ranked mode and they didn't listen.
when i don't agree with the problem of the discover mechanic per se, i also think that the random card generation has gotten so excessive, that it turns games from an actual online 1v1 card game to single player mode.
but the devs are literally incapable of grasping the core issues of hearthstone ranked mode. and while they have given up on arena mode years ago, the keep putting ranked players in this hamster wheel of releasing broken untested cards and then nerf some cards and have the game playable until the next broken deck establishes 1 week later. this repeats until the game is semi-ok to play and two weeks from then, the mini set releases and we rinse and repeat until the next expansion gets on it's way.
mana cheat, random card generation and incompetent devs. the 3 pillars of failure in hearthstone
There are two major problems with modern Discover. The first one is that there is no Cost/stat penalty to the cards. Even a basic Discover card like Paparazzi has premium stats for the Cost. The other problem is that the overall quality of cards has increased a lot since the introduction of the mechanic, with fewer and fewer packfillers each expansion. This leads to the quality of these Discovers being increasingly good.
I would love to see discover disappear completely as that would improve the game. But I'd be content with (1) more "discover a card that didn't start in your deck" and/or (2) a reasonable mana cost to discover. A 2-drop with discover should be statted like a 1-drop.
Summary: Stop printing bs cards you can play with 0 risk or thought.
That would lose them 80-90% of their playerbase. It's a zombieland out there and you're a minority in it.
I think we're already past the point of no return with discover. Hearthstone community loves it so it's here to stay and discover cards will only get stronger. Classes like Priest, Mage and Rogue are already ruined. DK is next and others, in order to keep up with power level, will fall to it as well.
Pretty soon all matches will look like Priest mirror where every turn each player stares at three card choices until he starts to rope. Fun times.
discover is clearly an issue but the major one to me is currently the difference in term of power level across the archetypes and class. The amount of pressure some decks applies right now is insane. You need the right answer every turn (and some classes just don't have them...) if you face the tier-I decks to hope not dying on turn 6 (I'm not even speaking about wining at this point).
I hope they will do major nerfs soon. It seems that they went for a decrease in power creep with this expansion, so now they need to reduce the power level of old cards form last year.
Charge in a game like this seems so counterintuitive if you consider the back and forth nature of a card game. The established mechanic is that minion don’t attack on their first turn so that the other player counters and so on and so forth. Rush has much of a lesser impact since it can’t target hero straight away and fits with the overall game foundations of the game.
« but the devs are literally incapable of grasping the core issues of hearthstone ranked mode. »
I’m sure some of them are competent, let’s be fair here. Maybe rotations happen too often and they can’t keep up and stay up to date in what works and what doesn’t. There are quite a few combinations of cards possible after all. Don’t get me wrong, I share your frustration (and then some), but I think it goes beyond an incompetent staff. It might be a case of someone calling the shots being incompetent however and acting as a bottleneck to a constant stream of fixes which would improve and fix the game.
There’s definitely something off. I wish they more on the ball when it comes to nerfs.
"I think we can all agree on one of the current problems and that is discover." -- Absolutely could not disagree more. For me, discover is the best mechanic in Hearthstone for a couple of reasons: 1) It makes each game play out differently than the one before it. Maybe for people who only care about climbing to legend every month, this isn't as appealing, but if I'm going to sit down and play numerous games back-to-back, I don't want them to all feel the same. Discover is key to this. 2) It is something that sets Hearthstone apart from physical card games, because it would be impossible to do IRL. (I realize anything that generates random cards also falls into this category, but I like that Discover gives the player some agency.)
All that being said, I do agree with many of the above comments about the COST of discover nowadays. TheArcanist236 said it well above when pointing out Paparazzi - there is no cost whatsoever to Discover. And given how powerful and interesting it is, that really doesn't make any sense to me. I love the idea of attaching it to Finale or Manathirst or Infuse more consistently. Or just giving it a big stat or mana-cost penalty.
I especially think the devs have been too quick to print REALLY good neutral discover with no penalty. School Teacher is just phenomenal in every class, and Vizier is good in many classes. This can make deckbuilding a little less interesting. And with the pool being so small right now, targeted discover (like in the case of School Teacher) just gets absurdly consistent.
So, I 100% disagree with the vilification of the discover mechanic, but I do think the devs have lost their way in how they put value on this mechanic.
If they limit decks to one copy legendary and two of the other cards then what's the point if you can discover more and more copies. Discover would be fine if you were limited to two copies of the same card in one game. It would also make more sense strategy wise.
If they limit decks to one copy legendary and two of the other cards then what's the point if you can discover more and more copies. Discover would be fine if you were limited to two copies of the same card in one game. It would also make more sense strategy wise.
You couldn’t disagree more, but your rebuttal is in no way contradictory. In fact, I agree with you and think that idea is great! I don’t think there is a single HS player who enjoys getting hit by the 5th Blood Boil or Vampiric Blood in a game vs DK. I actually think what you’ve outlined would keep most of the fun of Discover intact, while also making it generally more fair and consistent with the fact that the devs have decided the mana value of discover is zero.
”That said, it does kinda bug me how often the game now revolves around playing cards that you didn't actually put in your deck. That and how many decks revolve around cheating out big minions and spells.”
I don’t think being able to cheat big minions is an inherently broken mechanic, so long as the decks that focus on that strategy aren’t able to do too many things effectively. I really enjoy decks like From De Other Side in Shaman, but Shaman loses the early game pretty hard a lot of times and so it’s easy for opponents to just go underneath you or for control decks to keep your minions in check. It’s when decks become so rounded that they’re able to have a good early game and go late that it can be frustrating.
Totally agree with OP. Every time I look at the card tracker and see an opponent has 1/3 of the cards played not even starting in their deck (aside from Thief Rogue and Priest, obv), or when I lose a win condition or a game outright due to something that was never in my opponents deck, that gets pretty irritating. "Play around it" means very little and depletes any hint of "skill" in a game where an opponent can just will a win condition into existence. It even feels filthy when I end up doing it myself.
Since the introduction of discover, I thought, why the hack is it possible to discover legendaries.
I mean after all there is a reason why the card is legendary and cant be twice in a Deck.
In that regard discover messes with a fundamental rule of the game and that just shouldnt be possible. If a card is meant to be played once, it should be once!
Tl/dr: at least remove legendaries from the discover pool
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Hearthstone has had many problems throughout it's lifespan and there will always be problems no doubt in that. I think we can all agree on one of the current problems and that is discover. Discovering needs to be possible only on gimmick cards with specific drawbacks or limitations, card like suspicious alchemist, flowrider, tooth of nefarian are perfect examples of such cards. They also need to be limited in number and very rarely be in the neutural card pool, if ever.
Now we have gotten to a point where you can generate stuff over and over and over even in aggro decks. This is a huge problem and makes deckbuilding pointless if you just can spew out new stuff over and over. It also makes legendaries obsolete since you can get several of them in the same game.
We need a massive overhaul before it' too late. Significantly nerf cards make the strong swing turn cards gimmicky and counterable with tech cards. Add new tech cards to the game. Make theo 5 mana again. Make the game interactive. More tech cards more denial. Also remove aoe removals almost completely unless they also are gimmiky. Playing 1 card to remove 7 without any requiremenets except mana should not be possible if not extremely rarely. Brawl is an excellent card which has a potential big drawback, its fun and more interactive than just wiping the whole board with 0 risk. Fight over me is also excellent and requires thoughtfull play.
Summary: Stop printing bs cards you can play with 0 risk or thought. Make strong cards counterable with a big gimmick instead of just insta playing it like a robot. Discover needs to be adressed first and utmost before it even spirals more out of control and becomes even a bigger problem. Inifnite card generation is not fun. Thanks
"I think we can all agree on one of the current problems and that is discover"
I disagree.
I agree (to a point), but I think it's more nuanced than "discover is bad". The problem (as I see it) is that discover is baked into something else, often with minimal loss of tempo, stats or damage. Couple this with the relatively small discover pool (which is also particularly strong for DK), and it feels as though discovered cards often end up being the key cards in a game.
Cards like Hematurge, Nerubian Vizier, School Teacher, Frost Strike, Amalgam of the Deep, Sketchy Stranger, Suspicious Alchemist, Bronze Explorer
There often no reason not to play them on curve, and the discover can always help out in an pinch.
Interestingly cards like Ghost Writer, Dispossessed Soul and Drakonid Operative dont feel nearly as bad (to me). Either thats due to the slightly higher mana cost (which limits their usefulness for the discovered card) or due to the higher bar for the condition, but maye this is the direction discover should take if Blizz is determined to keep it in the game.
I do feel like discover cards shoulnd't be able to discover other discover cards, but maybe that's just taking things too far...
What I agree with 100% is that resources need to start being meaningful again. You shouldn't just be able to dump your hand, re-fill and repeat. That doesn't encourage any sort of stategy (in much the same way as "me go face" shouldn't really be a viable approach to the game).
Similarly, mana cost should matter too.
idk if discover is the problem but 26 out of my 30 recent opponents was a DK, i dont even know what to say this is just dumb...
Honestly there are much bigger problems in the format right now than Discover. Namely the fact the top decks survived a rotation untouched, and are top tier decks in current meta without any alteration. This has greatly robbed me of my enjoyment of this meta, because it just feels like the last meta but with fewer options.
I don't think Discover itself is a problem, though there are perhaps too many strong Discover cards in the game. The mana cost or stat penalty associated with it could probably stand to be increased, or they could attach it to other keywords like Manathirst or Finale to make it more conditional.
Discover is also usually strongest at the start of a Standard Rotation since the pool is smaller, and gets worse as more cards release and consistency drops. DK also has a relatively small Discover pool and a lot of good Discover cards that let them fairly reliably target specific cards.
That said, it does kinda bug me how often the game now revolves around playing cards that you didn't actually put in your deck. That and how many decks revolve around cheating out big minions and spells.
mana cheat is still the biggest offender in this game by far. Kripp told them 6 years ago that it would eventually ruin ranked mode and they didn't listen.
when i don't agree with the problem of the discover mechanic per se, i also think that the random card generation has gotten so excessive, that it turns games from an actual online 1v1 card game to single player mode.
but the devs are literally incapable of grasping the core issues of hearthstone ranked mode. and while they have given up on arena mode years ago, the keep putting ranked players in this hamster wheel of releasing broken untested cards and then nerf some cards and have the game playable until the next broken deck establishes 1 week later. this repeats until the game is semi-ok to play and two weeks from then, the mini set releases and we rinse and repeat until the next expansion gets on it's way.
mana cheat, random card generation and incompetent devs. the 3 pillars of failure in hearthstone
"but the devs are literally incapable of grasping the core issues of hearthstone ranked mode"
Hyperbole makes your point less credible.
There are two major problems with modern Discover. The first one is that there is no Cost/stat penalty to the cards. Even a basic Discover card like Paparazzi has premium stats for the Cost. The other problem is that the overall quality of cards has increased a lot since the introduction of the mechanic, with fewer and fewer packfillers each expansion. This leads to the quality of these Discovers being increasingly good.
I would love to see discover disappear completely as that would improve the game. But I'd be content with (1) more "discover a card that didn't start in your deck" and/or (2) a reasonable mana cost to discover. A 2-drop with discover should be statted like a 1-drop.
That would lose them 80-90% of their playerbase. It's a zombieland out there and you're a minority in it.
I think we're already past the point of no return with discover. Hearthstone community loves it so it's here to stay and discover cards will only get stronger. Classes like Priest, Mage and Rogue are already ruined. DK is next and others, in order to keep up with power level, will fall to it as well.
Pretty soon all matches will look like Priest mirror where every turn each player stares at three card choices until he starts to rope. Fun times.
In death, I exact my revenge!
discover is clearly an issue but the major one to me is currently the difference in term of power level across the archetypes and class. The amount of pressure some decks applies right now is insane. You need the right answer every turn (and some classes just don't have them...) if you face the tier-I decks to hope not dying on turn 6 (I'm not even speaking about wining at this point).
I hope they will do major nerfs soon. It seems that they went for a decrease in power creep with this expansion, so now they need to reduce the power level of old cards form last year.
Charge in a game like this seems so counterintuitive if you consider the back and forth nature of a card game. The established mechanic is that minion don’t attack on their first turn so that the other player counters and so on and so forth. Rush has much of a lesser impact since it can’t target hero straight away and fits with the overall game foundations of the game.
« but the devs are literally incapable of grasping the core issues of hearthstone ranked mode. »
I’m sure some of them are competent, let’s be fair here. Maybe rotations happen too often and they can’t keep up and stay up to date in what works and what doesn’t. There are quite a few combinations of cards possible after all. Don’t get me wrong, I share your frustration (and then some), but I think it goes beyond an incompetent staff. It might be a case of someone calling the shots being incompetent however and acting as a bottleneck to a constant stream of fixes which would improve and fix the game.
There’s definitely something off. I wish they more on the ball when it comes to nerfs.
"I think we can all agree on one of the current problems and that is discover." -- Absolutely could not disagree more. For me, discover is the best mechanic in Hearthstone for a couple of reasons: 1) It makes each game play out differently than the one before it. Maybe for people who only care about climbing to legend every month, this isn't as appealing, but if I'm going to sit down and play numerous games back-to-back, I don't want them to all feel the same. Discover is key to this. 2) It is something that sets Hearthstone apart from physical card games, because it would be impossible to do IRL. (I realize anything that generates random cards also falls into this category, but I like that Discover gives the player some agency.)
All that being said, I do agree with many of the above comments about the COST of discover nowadays. TheArcanist236 said it well above when pointing out Paparazzi - there is no cost whatsoever to Discover. And given how powerful and interesting it is, that really doesn't make any sense to me. I love the idea of attaching it to Finale or Manathirst or Infuse more consistently. Or just giving it a big stat or mana-cost penalty.
I especially think the devs have been too quick to print REALLY good neutral discover with no penalty. School Teacher is just phenomenal in every class, and Vizier is good in many classes. This can make deckbuilding a little less interesting. And with the pool being so small right now, targeted discover (like in the case of School Teacher) just gets absurdly consistent.
So, I 100% disagree with the vilification of the discover mechanic, but I do think the devs have lost their way in how they put value on this mechanic.
I couldn't disagree more.
If they limit decks to one copy legendary and two of the other cards then what's the point if you can discover more and more copies. Discover would be fine if you were limited to two copies of the same card in one game. It would also make more sense strategy wise.
You couldn’t disagree more, but your rebuttal is in no way contradictory. In fact, I agree with you and think that idea is great! I don’t think there is a single HS player who enjoys getting hit by the 5th Blood Boil or Vampiric Blood in a game vs DK. I actually think what you’ve outlined would keep most of the fun of Discover intact, while also making it generally more fair and consistent with the fact that the devs have decided the mana value of discover is zero.
So tech against everything except board presence?
@Kathranis
”That said, it does kinda bug me how often the game now revolves around playing cards that you didn't actually put in your deck. That and how many decks revolve around cheating out big minions and spells.”
I don’t think being able to cheat big minions is an inherently broken mechanic, so long as the decks that focus on that strategy aren’t able to do too many things effectively. I really enjoy decks like From De Other Side in Shaman, but Shaman loses the early game pretty hard a lot of times and so it’s easy for opponents to just go underneath you or for control decks to keep your minions in check. It’s when decks become so rounded that they’re able to have a good early game and go late that it can be frustrating.
Totally agree with OP. Every time I look at the card tracker and see an opponent has 1/3 of the cards played not even starting in their deck (aside from Thief Rogue and Priest, obv), or when I lose a win condition or a game outright due to something that was never in my opponents deck, that gets pretty irritating. "Play around it" means very little and depletes any hint of "skill" in a game where an opponent can just will a win condition into existence. It even feels filthy when I end up doing it myself.
Since the introduction of discover, I thought, why the hack is it possible to discover legendaries.
I mean after all there is a reason why the card is legendary and cant be twice in a Deck.
In that regard discover messes with a fundamental rule of the game and that just shouldnt be possible. If a card is meant to be played once, it should be once!
Tl/dr: at least remove legendaries from the discover pool