These are just my 2 cents, but I think we should stop pretending that HS is a skill-based card game. There are no differences whether you are playing an aggro, midrange, control or combo deck: the amount of thinking required to play this game was reduced to the minimum years ago, since nowadays even the more controllish list play cards with mindless effect such as Yogg, puzzle box, etc.
So, you wanna say that guys playing at the world championship are there because they got really, really lucky, right? Sure!
Yogg and puzzlebox are high variance cards but there is skill in both playing them and playing around them. If you overextend into a possible Yogg and get destroyed by it... it is not only luck.
Just tried to do that for a change, but surprise, surprise my stupid priest deck was instantly met by tickatus warlock, which i have never seen before on the ladder when playing aggro btw. So that's why people don't play for fun anymore.
These are just my 2 cents, but I think we should stop pretending that HS is a skill-based card game. There are no differences whether you are playing an aggro, midrange, control or combo deck: the amount of thinking required to play this game was reduced to the minimum years ago, since nowadays even the more controllish list play cards with mindless effect such as Yogg, puzzle box, etc.
So, you wanna say that guys playing at the world championship are there because they got really, really lucky, right? Sure!
Yogg and puzzlebox are high variance cards but there is skill in both playing them and playing around them. If you overextend into a possible Yogg and get destroyed by it... it is not only luck.
Aggro decks are the challenge of the game, if they are so braindead or whatever you should be shame of yourself for not having enough intelligence in find a way to go trough the challenge they offer.
i'm not saying no aggro, just less aggro. So people can actually play fun cards and not die turn 4. But i see people here in this thread are mostly aggro players so i can't preach :D
Why so much dislike to aggro, apart from the fact that it allows to make games fast, there are many aggros that are good fun if you like rng or crazy shenigams.
Aggro should be around just like control, but they manage to make aggro to aggro and control to control.
I hate face decks, cus its no interaction on the board/minions. Its just boring to watch and play against. But so is control when they can generate like 50 new cards that did not even start in their deck.
What you categorize as "fun decks" is subjective. Agro decks transcend the game of hearthstone and their affect are so substantial that the anger appears in forums all over the internet. That's a lot of fun.
Secondly, if agro was gone you'd be making posts like " imagine hearthstone without RNG decks"
i'm not saying no aggro, just less aggro. So people can actually play fun cards and not die turn 4. But i see people here in this thread are mostly aggro players so i can't preach :D
Tell me what is your idea of a "fun card" in HS then.
Is it Yogg? For me it is poison, heavy RNG swings are what is killing HS to me
What often crosses my mind is how rarely I can actually play fun decks and reach turn 7 without dying to aggro decks. Can we all agree that the game would be a lot more awesome if they would last a bit longer?
Question is why aren't more people playing fun decks on ladder. The only 2 ideas for me are, either people love winning and you get higher winrates and faster matches with aggro, or combo/control/fun decks are too expensive to craft for most people?
Just wanted to hear honest opinions from you..
They like the feeling of winning. Most people don’t play for fun, they play to satisfy their psychological need for “win” and “I’m superior than you, s***ers”.
It s like a chain reaction from that point onwards, once they start losing, they switch over to the deck that just beat them even if they have a collection to play superior decks that require more time to learn. This also explains the excessively aggressive hearthstone community
As if MTG has no periods when monored burn is a top deck or as if ladder isn't full of people who grind 15 daily wins with aggro :) But yep, one can escape from RNG cards by playing MTG and start complaining about manafloods\screws instead.
I mean I want to play it max 4 hours a day, not be a full-time player with no income from it. And obviously I would prefer playing 10 games in an hour than playing 3.
If you overextend and get punished by something like that is not only luck probably, but you can be punished even if you are playing carefully and you did not make any mistakes. Just open any Trolden video to have any clue of what HS has become.
Btw, I never said that who's playing at the grandmasters is there for pure luck. Obviously top players are better at predicting the game outcomes, building decks, or piloting them, than the average HS player. However, RNG is so dominant in this game that it also decides games at the pro level: just an example, in the 2016 final Pavel won the second to last game against Amnesiac thanks to two random spells created by a Babbling Book (one poly to get rid of Malygos and one Fireland Portal to kill Thaurissan).
Is there skill in HS? Sure, but it is not so relevant. And I say this because if you match two equal skilled players against each other, rng becomes a strong deciding factor, and that is undeniable. I mean, even the world championship final was decided (among other things) by pure chance. God, they call HS an esports and the developers literally printed a card that says: 5% to flip a coin and decide who will win this game.
Again I'm not saying that this is wrong (even though I dislike it, but i get it there are people that enjoy rng) or that luck is the only factor deciding game. I am sure that I will lose 100% every game I play against any mid to high-legend player, no doubt.
I'm just saying that HS is not a skilled-based game, at least, as it used to be, since when skill is equalized the rng influence is heavier than the player decision.
I got your point, but everybody play for win or someone have fun in just lose with a cool deck? But what deck is fun is more subjective. I prefer midrange/tempo > aggro > control. 10 minutes in a match is nice at me, but 20 minutes to summon a great minion or OTK? Just occasionally.
Is there skill in HS? Sure, but it is not so relevant. And I say this because if you match two equal skilled players against each other, rng becomes a strong deciding factor, and that is undeniable.
What you are trying to say that poker requires less skill than chess. It is simply untrue.
Yes, if I'll play one game against a chess world champion my chance to win is exactly zero. If I'll play one hand against a poker world champion my chance is not zero. Yet it doesn't mean that there is less skill in playing poker than in playing chess.
Variance increases the number of games needed to determine who is a better player. It doesn't reduce the amount of skill needed. If anything, calculating chances is a skill in itself.
I do think that Blizzard's tournaments have far too few games to actually find the best player. Paveling book is a great example of that. On other hand, who'd watch tournament with matches that are dozens of games long?
One important thing is that if we'll reduce the RNG factor making higher-skill player more likely to win a single game will have a side-effect that better deck (either just better, or favorable in rock-paper-scissors) will win a higher percentage of games up to the point when turn 1 concede will be an easy decision.
The problem isn't aggro, the problem is Aggro DH, which makes up about a 25% of the meta. There's only one control deck - one! - that's favored against aggro DH and that's control warrior. The other decks that do well against Aggro DH? Other DH builds. So either play control warrior or DH, otherwise lose to DH, which constitutes 1/3 of the meta altogether. That's not a recipe for a healthy metagame or fun experience on ladder.
Because they are cheap. And f2p player always whinning in this forum
So, you wanna say that guys playing at the world championship are there because they got really, really lucky, right? Sure!
Yogg and puzzlebox are high variance cards but there is skill in both playing them and playing around them. If you overextend into a possible Yogg and get destroyed by it... it is not only luck.
Just tried to do that for a change, but surprise, surprise my stupid priest deck was instantly met by tickatus warlock, which i have never seen before on the ladder when playing aggro btw. So that's why people don't play for fun anymore.
yogg is for window lickers and poo sniffers
No aggro? like garbage year of the raven?
Imagine hearthstone without overpowered priest, Druid, decks
Aggro decks are the challenge of the game, if they are so braindead or whatever you should be shame of yourself for not having enough intelligence in find a way to go trough the challenge they offer.
No aggro? Really? And what am I supposed to farm then, 20 minute priest matches?
i'm not saying no aggro, just less aggro. So people can actually play fun cards and not die turn 4. But i see people here in this thread are mostly aggro players so i can't preach :D
Why so much dislike to aggro, apart from the fact that it allows to make games fast, there are many aggros that are good fun if you like rng or crazy shenigams.
PRIEST
Aggro should be around just like control, but they manage to make aggro to aggro and control to control.
I hate face decks, cus its no interaction on the board/minions. Its just boring to watch and play against. But so is control when they can generate like 50 new cards that did not even start in their deck.
What you categorize as "fun decks" is subjective. Agro decks transcend the game of hearthstone and their affect are so substantial that the anger appears in forums all over the internet. That's a lot of fun.
Secondly, if agro was gone you'd be making posts like " imagine hearthstone without RNG decks"
Just go play magic
Tell me what is your idea of a "fun card" in HS then.
Is it Yogg? For me it is poison, heavy RNG swings are what is killing HS to me
They like the feeling of winning. Most people don’t play for fun, they play to satisfy their psychological need for “win” and “I’m superior than you, s***ers”.
It s like a chain reaction from that point onwards, once they start losing, they switch over to the deck that just beat them even if they have a collection to play superior decks that require more time to learn. This also explains the excessively aggressive hearthstone community
As if MTG has no periods when monored burn is a top deck or as if ladder isn't full of people who grind 15 daily wins with aggro :) But yep, one can escape from RNG cards by playing MTG and start complaining about manafloods\screws instead.
I mean I want to play it max 4 hours a day, not be a full-time player with no income from it. And obviously I would prefer playing 10 games in an hour than playing 3.
If you overextend and get punished by something like that is not only luck probably, but you can be punished even if you are playing carefully and you did not make any mistakes. Just open any Trolden video to have any clue of what HS has become.
Btw, I never said that who's playing at the grandmasters is there for pure luck. Obviously top players are better at predicting the game outcomes, building decks, or piloting them, than the average HS player. However, RNG is so dominant in this game that it also decides games at the pro level: just an example, in the 2016 final Pavel won the second to last game against Amnesiac thanks to two random spells created by a Babbling Book (one poly to get rid of Malygos and one Fireland Portal to kill Thaurissan).
Is there skill in HS? Sure, but it is not so relevant. And I say this because if you match two equal skilled players against each other, rng becomes a strong deciding factor, and that is undeniable. I mean, even the world championship final was decided (among other things) by pure chance. God, they call HS an esports and the developers literally printed a card that says: 5% to flip a coin and decide who will win this game.
Again I'm not saying that this is wrong (even though I dislike it, but i get it there are people that enjoy rng) or that luck is the only factor deciding game. I am sure that I will lose 100% every game I play against any mid to high-legend player, no doubt.
I'm just saying that HS is not a skilled-based game, at least, as it used to be, since when skill is equalized the rng influence is heavier than the player decision.
Here's the video of the 2016 final.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=3E0istFgefM
I got your point, but everybody play for win or someone have fun in just lose with a cool deck? But what deck is fun is more subjective. I prefer midrange/tempo > aggro > control. 10 minutes in a match is nice at me, but 20 minutes to summon a great minion or OTK? Just occasionally.
What you are trying to say that poker requires less skill than chess. It is simply untrue.
Yes, if I'll play one game against a chess world champion my chance to win is exactly zero. If I'll play one hand against a poker world champion my chance is not zero. Yet it doesn't mean that there is less skill in playing poker than in playing chess.
Variance increases the number of games needed to determine who is a better player. It doesn't reduce the amount of skill needed. If anything, calculating chances is a skill in itself.
I do think that Blizzard's tournaments have far too few games to actually find the best player. Paveling book is a great example of that. On other hand, who'd watch tournament with matches that are dozens of games long?
One important thing is that if we'll reduce the RNG factor making higher-skill player more likely to win a single game will have a side-effect that better deck (either just better, or favorable in rock-paper-scissors) will win a higher percentage of games up to the point when turn 1 concede will be an easy decision.
The problem isn't aggro, the problem is Aggro DH, which makes up about a 25% of the meta. There's only one control deck - one! - that's favored against aggro DH and that's control warrior. The other decks that do well against Aggro DH? Other DH builds. So either play control warrior or DH, otherwise lose to DH, which constitutes 1/3 of the meta altogether. That's not a recipe for a healthy metagame or fun experience on ladder.