The nerfs to Sludge Slurper and Corrupted Elementalist slowed it down enough that it can get eaten by aggro. Before the nerfs, playing aggro against it just felt miserable
I think it didnt do much, by the time the nerfs arrived, aggro was already rising, while shaman was declining. The elementalist was the only very significant one, Slurper barely did anything, Fleshshaper now gives bigger minions and still strong against swarm decks.
We are just following the natural progression where decks against Shaman rose up to beat it, we would be in the very same spot without the nerfs, Shaman still has all their powerplays in place and can do them on curve just as easily, very easy to hit Pack on 5, Galakrond on 7 and Shudderwock on 9. The Quest variant was already buried by the regular build anyway.
They should undo the Slurper and Fleshshaper and make proper nerfs like giving the later spellshield and either reducing the stats, overload or increase the cost on Dragon's Pack
Think the nerfes Been good - bur i play in and around pretty High legend - and 40% of my games is agianst some kind of deathrattle rouge. I Think that’s quite a Big problem, since the deck isen’t interactive at all. If he drab apothecary you lose 90% of the time - if he don’t you win 90% of the time. That is a very problematic design, and I can’t understand Blizzard didn’t foresee it, when they printed the card.
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My brother and I both got legend - and he climbed to 316 with it. Check out our guide!
In my opinion the nerfs weren't enough for the whole game, but they balanced Galakrond shaman without killing it completely and this allowed other classes to come out with some form of tier 1 or 2 deck.
Mogu + mutate was a big problem and we seem to be safe now, since most galakrond shaman list don't rely on such a combo for a later phase of the game, and they actually prefer to cycle cards and get to Galakron fully empowered asap (which makes more sense).
Considering there are many other broken cards of the recent expansion that need to be touched, nerfing shaman further would have basically killed the class completely!
More nerfs that I am expecting in January are: - Scion of Ruin 3 mana for a 9/6 rush on board or more if buffed seems definitely crazy
- Toxic Reinforcements [/card] some face hunter games are won turn 1 as soon as they can play that and curve it out with [card]phase stalker turn 3 maybe on coin so you can hero power
- Necrium Apothecary they didn't have data after a week (because there was too much data about shaman) now I think they have more than enough data to see how oppressive and dangerous this card can become even considering future death rattle cards that might be added
I wonder if Blizz will push a 2nd balance patch in early January before the adventure like one of the Devs hinted or wait till after adventure's out. They really do need to nerf aggro, especially hunter and pirate warrior as well as faceless corruptor to 3/4.
Most people who complain about aggro are salty cos they can't play their dragon decks or other ineffective decks that don't fit the meta, the aggro decks are easily countered already and nerfing them would just make the meta super slow and make the value engine cards that are currently too slow waaay too powerful.
EDIT: and yes the rogue decks after playing them myself are a big problem, either you draw well and win 100% the time or you don't draw well and lose almost 100% time like someone already pointed out.
So, i managed to reach legend again but almost half of my games were against shaman, the other half were against some kind of smorc deck. Unfortunatelly i have played my games on phone as i play only mtga when i am on pc so i have no data to back my claims.
So i ask, do you think that the nerfs failed? Because from my point of view/experience, it's the first set of nerfs that they did absolutely nothing. If i am wrong kindly show me why. I am really interested in your experience.
Congratulations on hitting legend once again, jainaishot!!! :)
Oh, and about the nerfs :P: I think they worked, but just a bit, and to be honest, I'm not very happy about them. Why? Because I don't like the fact the two most powerful warrior decks in the current meta are aggro: Pirate Warrior has a 54.77% winrate (best deck) and Galakrond Warrior a 53.58% winrate. Both are very strong and people is still running the new crazy card named Faceless Corruptor without thinking twice, because sadly it's still a no brainer.
Having said that, I'm still climbing the ladder and having fun. Let's see if I hit legend like you this month. :)
I would say Yes they have failed or maybe the expansion has failed in that the power level is an order of magnitude higher than what existed prior
my main frustration is that stupid broken cards are the basis for top archetypes Dragon pack makes zero sense, Zero! Earth elemental 7/8 taunt THREE overload for 5mana. Guys let’s make a card that gives 10/12 taunts with NO overload
Apothecary is busted too making Rogue viable
Also feels like good AOE is lacking to combat Aggro.
They did better then I thought they could, they stopped galashaman from being unfairly strong while still keeping the same deck powerful enough to be viable. That is the ideal thing for a nerf to do. It's also why people dislike the nerfs. I think people wanted to see galashaman, and decks they dislike in general, disappear rather then be balanced, which is silly but kinda how the brain works.
They did better then I thought they could, they stopped galashaman from being unfairly strong while still keeping the same deck powerful enough to be viable. That is the ideal thing for a nerf to do. It's also why people dislike the nerfs. I think people wanted to see galashaman, and decks they dislike in general, disappear rather then be balanced, which is silly but kinda how the brain works.
Agree, you can still use the deck, so it was a fair nerf. Meanwhile, it opened the meta and allowed a whole bunch of decks to find a place. I hit legend with token druid, a deck I've never had success with, but that little bit of breathing space made all the difference. I expect things to open up even more when the adventure hits.
I am shaman main and i play quest galagrond because there isnt any other good options for shaman at the moment.
It is true what they said about about elementalist nerfs, its much more awkward and difficult to play anymore, imagine if you have 2 dragon packs in your hand and 1 elementalist, your opponent has aggressive board and you could stop it by using elementalist, but you are on turn 4 with a coin, you paly the dragon pack and get the two 2/3 taunts but you realize its a gala warrior and you are screwed.
Also the game depends heavily on what you draw and when you draw it, i know this is pretty much every class in the game but with shaman its like, you get all high cost cards in the start, your galagrond hasnt got invoked forever, your opponent can easily clear 5/6s with plague of death, skyshiv, hysteria, scion of ruin, hysteria or big stated minions (im looking at you anubis rogue), like 8 out of 10 times all or 1 wolf barely survives.
Basically the nerf has put shaman down pretty much, i mostly see gala/pirate warriors, quest priests and deathrattle/highlander/gala rogues or sometimes hunters and shamans....RARELY.
Because Shaman runs Mutate, increasing the mana cost of minions is not an effective nerf option against the class. Increased mana cost makes the deck slower, but it also makes it much stronger in the late game.
Dragon's Pack should have been targeted. I think simply reducing the health of the taunts by 1 would be enough (it's much harder to kill two 5/6s than two 5/5s). And if they double the spell with something like Electra Stormsurge, then you either need a board clear or you just lose the game basically.
Because Shaman runs Mutate, increasing the mana cost of minions is not an effective nerf option against the class. Increased mana cost makes the deck slower, but it also makes it much stronger in the late game.
You don't seem to have fully understood how big Mogu Fleshshaper nerf is, so please allow me to show you all the hidden implications.
Before the nerf, there was no reason for you to mulligan away Mogu and Mutate, because you were pretty much guaranteed to have it playable for turn 3/4. Now that it costs 9 mana, it's a lot more awkward to keep in your opening hand, so it means that you'll hit the combo with a very lower frequency than before.
Mogu's strength was coming in play pretty early, when your opponent can rarely answer it immediately. The same reasoning can be done for Desert Hare + Evolve: if you pull it off at turn 11, your opponent will either kill you or clear the board. In the end, Mogu was strong because it was able to generate incredible pressure for the stage of the match it was played in. Now that it costs more mana, it will come down at least 2 turns later, which on average is enough time for your opponent to build a board, simply ignore it and kill you or answer it. It doesn't really matter that the 10 mana pool is slightly better than the 8 mana pool, since (as I said before) the matter is not how big it is but how fast it comes.
You talked about strength in the late game. I have to disagree on this point too, for the exact same reason I just explained: since it's a matter of pressuring your opponent, it won't work the same way when the match becomes a matter of value. Moreover, if you choose to rely on a 2 card combo that may or may not give you what you want in the late game I dare to say that you're not making an optimal decision here.
Of course, there will be times in which your opponent will disgustingly highroll Mogu and you'll lose the game, but that happens with literally any RNG bound effect and you can do nothing about it but accepting it and moving forward.
Trust me, Mogu Fleshshaper's balance change is a nerf under all of its aspects and makes the card a lot worse than before.
Necrium Apothecary doesn't need a nerf but destroyed. Such broken card in early game shouldn't exists. They knew it, but they prefer "shake the meta" splitting the nerf so people can use dust for different decks. And don't forget to buy the new 35 new cards on January so we can "shake the meta" again.
Before the nerfs happened the ladder, in my experience at least, was over 70% Galakrond Shaman. Now they seem to be much less frequent so I think the nerfs did the trick. There are still a couple on ladder but I don't face them as often as I used to. I actually don't think I've played against Shaman more than three times over the last few days and I've won all my games against them anyways. Plus, the power level of the deck was really toned down to a more reasonable level. The deck is still OK but it's not insanely OP anymore. I've found ladder to be much more diverse which is a good thing.
Nerfs weere good. Hitting Sludge Slurper was a great move imo. That card was seriously annoying and in almost every Shaman list out there.
You just proved that Blizzard did a terrible job with nerfs.The idea is BALANCE but they seem to always eliminate or nearly remove classes with nerfs.Slurper has NEVER been as strong as the 1/3 cleric,matter of fact no 1 drop is as strong as cleric but yet it remains in game untouched.All the nerfs have done is turn the vast majority to playing either Hunter or Rogue.
Furthermore Blizzard knew full well the cards they held back to add in the latest content expansion to sell us those cards,they knew full well those cards would buff other classes,so the nerfs were uncalled for.You do not as a quality team make hasty changes especially knowing there are cards still coming to balance the classes out.The community really showed it's ugly face when we typically saw CRY FOR NERFS the very same day the expansion released.
It is really sad as well seeing that EVERY single time Shaman gets a good roll it gets nerfed while other classes keep on rolling.If Shaman had a run of 10 straight seasons a top the ladder ranks it would still be the most underwhelming class since beta testing.
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The nerfs to Sludge Slurper and Corrupted Elementalist slowed it down enough that it can get eaten by aggro. Before the nerfs, playing aggro against it just felt miserable
I think it didnt do much, by the time the nerfs arrived, aggro was already rising, while shaman was declining. The elementalist was the only very significant one, Slurper barely did anything, Fleshshaper now gives bigger minions and still strong against swarm decks.
We are just following the natural progression where decks against Shaman rose up to beat it, we would be in the very same spot without the nerfs, Shaman still has all their powerplays in place and can do them on curve just as easily, very easy to hit Pack on 5, Galakrond on 7 and Shudderwock on 9. The Quest variant was already buried by the regular build anyway.
They should undo the Slurper and Fleshshaper and make proper nerfs like giving the later spellshield and either reducing the stats, overload or increase the cost on Dragon's Pack
Think the nerfes Been good - bur i play in and around pretty High legend - and 40% of my games is agianst some kind of deathrattle rouge. I Think that’s quite a Big problem, since the deck isen’t interactive at all. If he drab apothecary you lose 90% of the time - if he don’t you win 90% of the time. That is a very problematic design, and I can’t understand Blizzard didn’t foresee it, when they printed the card.
My brother and I both got legend - and he climbed to 316 with it. Check out our guide!
In generel i’m very happy with the current ladder, but the Rouges is very problematic
My brother and I both got legend - and he climbed to 316 with it. Check out our guide!
In my opinion the nerfs weren't enough for the whole game, but they balanced Galakrond shaman without killing it completely and this allowed other classes to come out with some form of tier 1 or 2 deck.
Mogu + mutate was a big problem and we seem to be safe now, since most galakrond shaman list don't rely on such a combo for a later phase of the game, and they actually prefer to cycle cards and get to Galakron fully empowered asap (which makes more sense).
Considering there are many other broken cards of the recent expansion that need to be touched, nerfing shaman further would have basically killed the class completely!
More nerfs that I am expecting in January are:
- Scion of Ruin 3 mana for a 9/6 rush on board or more if buffed seems definitely crazy
- Toxic Reinforcements [/card] some face hunter games are won turn 1 as soon as they can play that and curve it out with [card]phase stalker turn 3 maybe on coin so you can hero power
- Necrium Apothecary they didn't have data after a week (because there was too much data about shaman) now I think they have more than enough data to see how oppressive and dangerous this card can become even considering future death rattle cards that might be added
- Dragon's Pack same problem as per Scion of Ruin, seems pretty strong in particular when combined with Electra Stormsurge or Archmage Vargoth
Plus I heard they will release more cards in January when the adventure will come out, so we probably might have more broken stuff to discuss soon :P
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I wonder if Blizz will push a 2nd balance patch in early January before the adventure like one of the Devs hinted or wait till after adventure's out. They really do need to nerf aggro, especially hunter and pirate warrior as well as faceless corruptor to 3/4.
Most people who complain about aggro are salty cos they can't play their dragon decks or other ineffective decks that don't fit the meta, the aggro decks are easily countered already and nerfing them would just make the meta super slow and make the value engine cards that are currently too slow waaay too powerful.
EDIT: and yes the rogue decks after playing them myself are a big problem, either you draw well and win 100% the time or you don't draw well and lose almost 100% time like someone already pointed out.
Congratulations on hitting legend once again, jainaishot!!! :)
Oh, and about the nerfs :P: I think they worked, but just a bit, and to be honest, I'm not very happy about them. Why? Because I don't like the fact the two most powerful warrior decks in the current meta are aggro: Pirate Warrior has a 54.77% winrate (best deck) and Galakrond Warrior a 53.58% winrate. Both are very strong and people is still running the new crazy card named Faceless Corruptor without thinking twice, because sadly it's still a no brainer.
Having said that, I'm still climbing the ladder and having fun. Let's see if I hit legend like you this month. :)
I would say Yes they have failed or maybe the expansion has failed in that the power level is an order of magnitude higher than what existed prior
my main frustration is that stupid broken cards are the basis for top archetypes Dragon pack makes zero sense, Zero! Earth elemental 7/8 taunt THREE overload for 5mana. Guys let’s make a card that gives 10/12 taunts with NO overload
Apothecary is busted too making Rogue viable
Also feels like good AOE is lacking to combat Aggro.
Nerfs was lazy to say the least, it seems like to me they just throw it without even test (as always) because too hurry about holidays.
They did better then I thought they could, they stopped galashaman from being unfairly strong while still keeping the same deck powerful enough to be viable. That is the ideal thing for a nerf to do. It's also why people dislike the nerfs. I think people wanted to see galashaman, and decks they dislike in general, disappear rather then be balanced, which is silly but kinda how the brain works.
Agree, you can still use the deck, so it was a fair nerf. Meanwhile, it opened the meta and allowed a whole bunch of decks to find a place. I hit legend with token druid, a deck I've never had success with, but that little bit of breathing space made all the difference. I expect things to open up even more when the adventure hits.
No posts actually talking about WR of shaman, just how many times youre encountering the deck....
I am shaman main and i play quest galagrond because there isnt any other good options for shaman at the moment.
It is true what they said about about elementalist nerfs, its much more awkward and difficult to play anymore, imagine if you have 2 dragon packs in your hand and 1 elementalist, your opponent has aggressive board and you could stop it by using elementalist, but you are on turn 4 with a coin, you paly the dragon pack and get the two 2/3 taunts but you realize its a gala warrior and you are screwed.
Also the game depends heavily on what you draw and when you draw it, i know this is pretty much every class in the game but with shaman its like, you get all high cost cards in the start, your galagrond hasnt got invoked forever, your opponent can easily clear 5/6s with plague of death, skyshiv, hysteria, scion of ruin, hysteria or big stated minions (im looking at you anubis rogue), like 8 out of 10 times all or 1 wolf barely survives.
Basically the nerf has put shaman down pretty much, i mostly see gala/pirate warriors, quest priests and deathrattle/highlander/gala rogues or sometimes hunters and shamans....RARELY.
Ehh... I don't know man: it seems a little biased...
Galakrond Shaman is still very powerful. The nerfs slowed the deck down, but increasing the mana cost on Mogu Fleshshaper and Corrupt Elementalist was a mistake. Mutate now transforms Mogu into a 10-cost minion, meaning you can play Mogu Fleshshaper, with rush to kill an enemy with 3 health or less, then immediately Mutate him into something like a Colossus of the Moon, Big Bad Archmage, Deathwing, Living Monument, etc.
Because Shaman runs Mutate, increasing the mana cost of minions is not an effective nerf option against the class. Increased mana cost makes the deck slower, but it also makes it much stronger in the late game.
Dragon's Pack should have been targeted. I think simply reducing the health of the taunts by 1 would be enough (it's much harder to kill two 5/6s than two 5/5s). And if they double the spell with something like Electra Stormsurge, then you either need a board clear or you just lose the game basically.
You don't seem to have fully understood how big Mogu Fleshshaper nerf is, so please allow me to show you all the hidden implications.
Moreover, if you choose to rely on a 2 card combo that may or may not give you what you want in the late game I dare to say that you're not making an optimal decision here.
Of course, there will be times in which your opponent will disgustingly highroll Mogu and you'll lose the game, but that happens with literally any RNG bound effect and you can do nothing about it but accepting it and moving forward.
Trust me, Mogu Fleshshaper's balance change is a nerf under all of its aspects and makes the card a lot worse than before.
Necrium Apothecary doesn't need a nerf but destroyed. Such broken card in early game shouldn't exists. They knew it, but they prefer "shake the meta" splitting the nerf so people can use dust for different decks. And don't forget to buy the new 35 new cards on January so we can "shake the meta" again.
Before the nerfs happened the ladder, in my experience at least, was over 70% Galakrond Shaman. Now they seem to be much less frequent so I think the nerfs did the trick. There are still a couple on ladder but I don't face them as often as I used to. I actually don't think I've played against Shaman more than three times over the last few days and I've won all my games against them anyways. Plus, the power level of the deck was really toned down to a more reasonable level. The deck is still OK but it's not insanely OP anymore. I've found ladder to be much more diverse which is a good thing.
Nerfs weere good. Hitting Sludge Slurper was a great move imo. That card was seriously annoying and in almost every Shaman list out there.
You just proved that Blizzard did a terrible job with nerfs.The idea is BALANCE but they seem to always eliminate or nearly remove classes with nerfs.Slurper has NEVER been as strong as the 1/3 cleric,matter of fact no 1 drop is as strong as cleric but yet it remains in game untouched.All the nerfs have done is turn the vast majority to playing either Hunter or Rogue.
Furthermore Blizzard knew full well the cards they held back to add in the latest content expansion to sell us those cards,they knew full well those cards would buff other classes,so the nerfs were uncalled for.You do not as a quality team make hasty changes especially knowing there are cards still coming to balance the classes out.The community really showed it's ugly face when we typically saw CRY FOR NERFS the very same day the expansion released.
It is really sad as well seeing that EVERY single time Shaman gets a good roll it gets nerfed while other classes keep on rolling.If Shaman had a run of 10 straight seasons a top the ladder ranks it would still be the most underwhelming class since beta testing.