Hearthpwn

You can't give a deck a crap ton of tools to deal with almost all situations and then hide behind a skill gap for justifying it's strength. There will always be those people that play the deck correctly. There has to be a middle ground and right now there isn't one. 

Quote from pabloskyfa >>

One of the most hated, and number 1 wanted for nerf cards I've seen is Call to Arms. Now, I fully aggree, that the tempo in that card is huge, without any real downside. That card in it self on curve, can win any tempo match up. And of course, it feels infuriating and unfair to play against it.

But that card keeps the only "on board" archetype in the meta which has some success. Control options have gotten so good of late, that it is impossible for any deck which plays on the board to have any success. Mid range is dead. And the only card which allows a midrange-ish (some people call it aggro, I've seen some very good midrange builds of even Paladinwith Lich King, Tirion, etc...) deck to be Tier 1 at the moment, is Call to Arms. With that card gone, expect Even Paladin to be worst than Odd Paladin, a deck that once the hype was gone we realized was actually rubbish (Tier 3).

There are only TWO (out of 7) archetypes which are Tier 1 and play on board a fair game of Hearthstone. Murloc and Even Paladin. Both decks are only there because of one card. Call to Arms. When that card is nerfed, say goodbye to any board decks. Yes, the card is bonkers. But we need bonkers cards that reward you for playing minions on curve, or else those decks will never keep up with the amazing control tools there exist now.

There was once a card nerfed like this, Bonemare which felt like cheating and unfair. Well, that card was the only reason ever for decks to try to be Mid-range. Rogues were playing 6 drops to curve out to that card. Now there is no incentive ever to play a card with more than 5 mana cost if you are not a control deck. Now that we have gotten rid of Midrange, let us not do the same to aggro, and just give up tempo minions forever.

In Legend only 30% of decks are Aggro. More than 50% of those decks exist because Call to Arms exist. Maybe it does need a nerf. But not today, and not in this meta. Tempoing out should be a good strategy in Hearthstone, and not just crazy power turns.

Cubelock isn't a combo deck, you just play on curve till 10 and slam death knight.

Pretty strong argument for CTA.  Good solid points.  Reasonable.  Logical.

Card is still too strong.  I think for evidence you need to look no further than its impact in Wild.

I actually think with the right set of nerfs (to include CTA) that we will see other on board decks shine like Tempo Rogue and Elemental Shaman.  So, I don't think the nerf of CTA will be the death knell of on board decks, but it might be for Paladin's versions.

Quote from pabloskyfa >>

One of the most hated, and number 1 wanted for nerf cards I've seen is Call to Arms. Now, I fully aggree, that the tempo in that card is huge, without any real downside. That card in it self on curve, can win any tempo match up. And of course, it feels infuriating and unfair to play against it.

But that card keeps the only "on board" archetype in the meta which has some success. Control options have gotten so good of late, that it is impossible for any deck which plays on the board to have any success. Mid range is dead. And the only card which allows a midrange-ish (some people call it aggro, I've seen some very good midrange builds of even Paladinwith Lich King, Tirion, etc...) deck to be Tier 1 at the moment, is Call to Arms. With that card gone, expect Even Paladin to be worst than Odd Paladin, a deck that once the hype was gone we realized was actually rubbish (Tier 3).

There are only TWO (out of 7) archetypes which are Tier 1 and play on board a fair game of Hearthstone. Murloc and Even Paladin. Both decks are only there because of one card. Call to Arms. When that card is nerfed, say goodbye to any board decks. Yes, the card is bonkers. But we need bonkers cards that reward you for playing minions on curve, or else those decks will never keep up with the amazing control tools there exist now.

There was once a card nerfed like this, Bonemare which felt like cheating and unfair. Well, that card was the only reason ever for decks to try to be Mid-range. Rogues were playing 6 drops to curve out to that card. Now there is no incentive ever to play a card with more than 5 mana cost if you are not a control deck. Now that we have gotten rid of Midrange, let us not do the same to aggro, and just give up tempo minions forever.

In Legend only 30% of decks are Aggro. More than 50% of those decks exist because Call to Arms exist. Maybe it does need a nerf. But not today, and not in this meta. Tempoing out should be a good strategy in Hearthstone, and not just crazy power turns.

Quote from latinvampire >>

The underlying criminal here is the recruit mechanic.  It's flat out awful. 

 

Quote from batanete >>

 

Quote from richardwere >>

 

Quote from Bigbando >>

 

Quote from richardwere >>

There is no defense for call to arms. Even for 5 mana would be very very good. You are playing on average 6/6 in stats (2x3) and you are drawing 3 cards. The fair cost for this card would be 6 and not 5 like many of us are claiming. 

 

 At 5 the card is fair enough at 6 it's literally unplayable unless they print really overpowered 2-drops. Why play call at 6 over a 6-drop?

 

 It is not unplayable at 6. Removing 3 minions from the deck in order to play on curve and play 6/6 in stats is still very good. 

 Lol no it isn't. People overestimate deck thinning massively in this game. At 6 mana, no one would play the card, other than in combo decks which relied on 1/2 mana cards as card draw or combo pieces.

So yeah, please make it 6 mana so we never see it again.

Quote from Kaladin >>

Get off your Paladin high horse dude.  There are many other midrange decks, don't pretend like CTA is the thing keeping the entire midrange archetype alive.  

 

Quote from yoQ >>

It is very hard to compete with that when you just drop decent minions on curve. The only midrange decks (other than slow even paladin variants) that can hold their ground are Spiteful Summoner decks (obviously because a 4/4 + Tyrantus for 6 mana is insanely broken)...

Quote from Nicholasjh >>

 

Quote from latinvampire >>

The underlying criminal here is the recruit mechanic.  It's flat out awful. 

 

 

 Right for the most part it's either too good or too bad. The only recruit card that is fairish and used is the Druid recruit a 4 or under minion card. 

 

Call To Arms has always been busted, I get the feeling blizzard knew they were going to nerf it down the line, but they needed something that can pressure warlock. We're going to be getting nerfs to both classes, this is good.

Though if they open it up for Tempo"-not-really-tempo-but-aggro/burn" Mage no one here is going to be very happy.

I think changing it to 5 mana is still an elegant solution.

You can’t deny that it’s currently too powerful.

Winrates jump like crazy when you have Call to Arms in your opening hand.

Cubelock with Taldaram/Umbra is a Combo deck. Tap and burst.

Cubelock with Taunts/Rin/Beetles is a Control deck with a combo finisher.

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Anyway there's no defense for Call to Arms. But the low amounts of new decks isn't its fault. 

Hi! I have waited a bit for the discussion to settle so I can read everyone's thoughts before answering. Overall I have been pleasantly surprised about how constructive and on point has been most people's feedback. While some discussion has been about how to nerf it, or what else should be nerfed, I do want to avoid going down that rabbit hole. While I have my opinion, there are many other threads to discuss that better.

Most people agree (me included) that Call to Arms' power is unmatched at its mana cost. Probably the most similar card that exists in its impact on board is Force of Nature. As call to arms brings 3 minions with a total average stats of 6/6. Now all the two drops are by definition way better than 2/2s (ie Enchanted Raven, which is 1 mana). And it also thins your deck. Downside being, it can be a dead draw towards then end of your deck. But cards are better judged for their effect played on curve (exception, those that are combo with other cards for crazy tempo).

But there is also a strong feeling that other nerfs, which target decks dominating board centric decks, are necessary to go along with it. A reasonable point of view, is that Call to Arms also contributes in some sense to keep out board centric decks. HSReplay shows Even Paladin having a positive win rate against every other board centric archetype, with the exception of Even Shaman. Call to Arms may be the only card that can put Warlock against the ropes. But if the Tyranny of Early Voidlords is over, is there a need for such a card? And can its existence be a reason for the fall of board archetypes, and not only its last hope? If so, then I can get behind its nerf.

What prompted me to defend it, is the hate there exists against it in this forum. While I felt that in the current meta (not in imaginary future meta) it was the only reason why we might see a deck playing on board. I was not defending its role in the future of Hearthstone. But more its role in Hearthstone today.

That also makes me ask my self a question. Of the people who are hating Call to Arms, how many are playing Spiteful Druid, Tempo Mage and Odd Rogue (to name a few)? Frustrated by seeing how they lose all chance of taking the board when CtA falls on curve. And how many are playing Controlock, Control Warrior, Control Priest or Big Spell Mage? Frustrated by losing against a deck they are targeting and have a favourable match up, but only lost because they had that one card. If you were playing Quest Rogue and are frustrated by how many times you always lose to them, I have no sympathy at all for you. And it has nothing to do with me playing Big Spell Mage.

Anyway, I want to appreciate everyone's effort and thoughts. I really do hope the nerfs will bring a new era for board archetypes, and that CtA was the hero we needed in times of war (ie bad meta for mid range), but not the leader you want in times of peace (ie good mid range meta). But above all, I would like to see at least two Tier 1 decks, which rely on playing minions on curve with a significantly different core set of cards in the future.

Call to Arms isn't the problem. Knife Juggler is the problem. The card is just an issue whenever it sees play.

Considering what CTA does, it's far too much value for the mana cost.  

• Draw three minions that cost 2 or less: approximately 2 mana worth of value? Perhaps more? Compare to a card like Elven Minstrel. (also, this rarely matters, but it's better than drawing the minions because it ignores your hand size limit)
• Put those three minions into play: approximately 6 mana worth of value?  Perhaps less on average because sometimes you'll pull a 1-drop. 

8-mana worth of value in a 4-mana card.  The fact that this can come down as early as turn 3 is absurd.  And before someone tries to compare, no, this isn't justified by later cards exceeding their mana cost in terms of value; in the early turns, mana efficiency matters much more than in the mid or late game.  

Call to Arms is one of those cards that is both very powerful AND it takes the game in unenjoyable directions.  Nobody likes playing against control mage where they have AOE after AOE after AOE and then lifesteal+freeze.  In an ideal world, that deck should be trash and unpopular but it's not because it usually destroys paladin.  Nobody enjoys playing against taunt druid, but it exists because of decks like paladin and cubelock.

The impact of cards goes far beyond just their effect on that class, it forces the meta to adapt and takes it in an unpleasant direction.  

As someone who went all-in on Paladin this xpac, I'm all for the nerf. As long as they destroy Cubelock's bs. 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Considering what CTA does, it's far too much value for the mana cost.  

• Draw three minions that cost 2 or less: approximately 2 mana worth of value? Perhaps more? Compare to a card like Elven Minstrel. (also, this rarely matters, but it's better than drawing the minions because it ignores your hand size limit)
• Put those three minions into play: approximately 6 mana worth of value?  Perhaps less on average because sometimes you'll pull a 1-drop. 

8-mana worth of value in a 4-mana card.  The fact that this can come down as early as turn 3 is absurd.  And before someone tries to compare, no, this isn't justified by later cards exceeding their mana cost in terms of value; in the early turns, mana efficiency matters much more than in the mid or late game.  

"It pulls 3 minions of 2 mana or less. These can be 1 drops. These can be 2 drops with lost Battlecries"

It CAN be, certainly, but you could also build the deck intelligently and avoid 2 drops that have Battlecries. Paladin has a lot of really good 1 and 2 drops.

Righteous Protector is only slightly worse than Annoy-o-Tron, so it's almost a 2 mana card on its own. Considering that when you pull it, it acts as a big defender against Knife Juggler, which is the card you want to keep alive as long as possible, it's totally fine to get the 1 drop.

Knife Juggler doesn't have a Battlecry, but it CAN get 2 free pings off the Call to Arms if you get super lucky. That's a crazy amount of extra value.

Wild Pyromancer, Doomsayer, Dirty Rat, it's really easy to build this deck.