This is my attempt to balance the overpowered cards that dominate the meta. I am interested in various opinions on how these cards should be balanced, as well as other cards that are imbalanced.
I don't want to whine about specific deck builds being annoying. But minions and spells should be able to be reasonably countered in general. That said, I like the various deck themes and don't want any to disappear. 38 cards below.
I'm sorry but I'm failing to understand the purpose behind these changes. You're nerfing aggro for a bit but then you're also nerfing equality, cabal, sylvanas and shield slam? Many of these changes are unneccesary.
I think with the adjustments most of those cards would still see play, but not every deck would have the same cards in certain slots. There's a generic neutral drop for each mana cost that fits into most decks. For example:
By design, class cards should be slightly superior to neutrals, yet many neutrals completely out-value class minions at that mana cost. Different deck types should have very little overlap, but in almost every deck there's a shredder, drake, dr. boom, etc. completely regardless of whether it's aggro, midrange, control, or combo. I don't think this all promotes the best metagame - I think it could be balanced better, which would see more interesting gameplay. There are also some class-cards that are way better than other classes' equivalents. While each class should have its advantage over others in certain areas, there are definitely some that don't really make sense. For example, Brawl and Lightbomb are completely superior to other classes' top single-card AoE, such as Twisting Nether, Flamestrike, Consecration, Elemental Destruction, Explosive Shot, and Starfall. It's not surprising that Priest and Warrior are by far the top control classes. Paladin and Warlock both get 2-card fantastic AoE, but card advantage is important in control.
If you disagree with whether or how a card should be rebalanced, first consider it from the perspective of facing it. As Death's Bite was mentioned, we'll consider it:
This card is a fantastic card and is included in every respectable warrior deck
It will often kill more than one of your minions, typically totaling more than the 4 mana
Its deathrattle does minor AoE to all your minions
Its deathrattle buffs most warrior minions (e.g. card draws, patrons, enrage, etc)
As a 5-mana 4/3 with the same deathrattle, its synergy is reduced, but it's still a fantastic card and would probably still be auto-included in every warrior deck, perhaps with only 1 instead of 2. Some cards need to be put in a worse mana-slot to be more balanced.
Since Divine Favor was also mentioned - it's a very broken card. Card advantage is supposed to be a fundamental aspect of card games, yet 3 mana to even it out is crazy. It is much more similar to Sprint than to Arcane Intellect.
There's very little chance that hearthstone devs would make these type of changes, and it would be very unlikely that they would do it all simultaneously. Discussion as to implementation is not my goal with this thread.
P.S. Although Shaman is definitely not used or overpowered right now, those are cards that are relatively overpowered. They really need to reduce the overload cost on lots of Shaman cards to start. I was also thinking about Blade Flurry from 2 mana -> 3 mana, as it combos too easily right now. But nobody plays Rogue either.
Why nerf control-oriented cards when aggro is so overwhelming at the moment?
Also I do not see the point of nerfing + 7 mana cards. Cards that cost a lot should be powerful. Most of them are not, and do not see play because of it.
I won't go into details but these cards just seemed like they were not tested enough, the value you get for their cost if overpowered. They both deserve the legendary status.
The rest of the nerfs are unjustified in my humble opinion.
Why? Most of those cards are fine as they are. You also nerfed a lot of control cards and Shaman cards which are already in a bad spot. There's no reason to nerf every card in the game that's played. Not every playable card in the game is broken. Most of them aren't. A lot of those changes would also just make aggro decks even MORE dominant since you're making the cards that control decks have to deal with them trash tier.
I am nerfing control-oriented cards because they are very imbalanced compared to other classes. I agree that, in general, the metagame is overly aggressive. If the meta would still be considered this way by most players with these changes, then clearly more adjustments need to be made.
I do think that many of the adjustments I suggest (Mad Scientist, Darnassus, Knife Juggler, Minibot, Explosive Trap, Loatheb, Shredder, Drake, Quick Shot, etc.) would slow down the meta quite a lot and make aggro/tempo less overwhelmingly dominant. Perhaps Leper Gnome's deathrattle should be reduced to 1 damage to the enemy hero, for starters.
But despite wanting to slow down games a little bit, control shouldn't dominate either. There should be a balance between deck types and themes.
Most of the nerfs are just a stat point and are very boring. Also, i would consider Tirion and possibly death's bite as being buffed. But you have also nerfed quite a few cards that don't need a nerf to being almost unplayable
I am nerfing control-oriented cards because they are very imbalanced compared to other classes. I agree that, in general, the metagame is overly aggressive. If the meta would still be considered this way by most players with these changes, then clearly more adjustments need to be made.
I do think that many of the adjustments I suggest (Mad Scientist, Darnassus, Knife Juggler, Minibot, Explosive Trap, Loatheb, Shredder, Drake, Quick Shot, etc.) would slow down the meta quite a lot and make aggro/tempo less overwhelmingly dominant. Perhaps Leper Gnome's deathrattle should be reduced to 1 damage to the enemy hero, for starters.
But despite wanting to slow down games a little bit, control shouldn't dominate either. There should be a balance between deck types and themes.
But aggro is already proven to be SIGNIFIGANTLY more powerful than control. It doesn't matter that you're marginally reducing the strength of a few aggro cards when you're basically removing any card capable of beating aggro from the game. Cards like Brawl and Lightbomb have already proved to not be nearly as effective as they should be against boards because of how sticky most minions are now but your solution is to 'fix' those cards by making them even LESS effective. Control decks alreay have very few ways to deal with aggression so any tool that they lose effectively doubles the efficiency of aggro decks. Theres also just the fact that there are a lot more aggro cards than there are cards to actually DEAL with aggro so while changing one card in an aggro deck may have little to no impact, changing a single anti-aggro card in a control deck can break the entire deck.
As for the others, the only cards that really need a nerf are Dr. Boom and Mysterious Challenger. The rest is fine.
I can kinda see why people call for a Shredder nerf but I can live with the card as-is. I really don't see what the problem with Lightbomb and Cabal Shadow Priest is, unless this is a message from a weird parallel dimension where Control Priest has taken over ladder and tournaments.
If you think Warrior removal needs a nerf for some reason you should increase the cost of Execute, not Shield Slam.
Blanket nerfing the Top 20 Hearthstone cards accomplishes nothing, decks will just shift and the current Top 21 - 40 become the next Top 20. If a card is nerfed, it should be for one of two reasons:
- It completely overshadows any other choice in that slot (same class and mana cost) (Dr. Boom)
- It creates a dominant deck that is frustrating to play against and has no straightforward counters that can keep the meta cycling. (MC)
I can kinda see why people call for a Shredder nerf but I can live with the card as-is.
The real problem with Piloted Shredder is that it just means that any new 4-drop they add to the game is going to have to be PRETTY GOOD if it's going to compete with Piloted Shredder for a spot in your deck. Obviously they can't make cards THAT powerful for 4 mana so the only way they can actually add playable 4 mana cards to the game is make them heavily synergy based or make them fufill specific roles, like Mechanical Yeti in a deck with Archmage Antonidas or Twilight Guardian as a 4 mana good dragon with taunt. Piloted Shredder may be just under the 'op' line but it still limits design space for cards and that kind of sucks.
I can kinda see why people call for a Shredder nerf but I can live with the card as-is.
The real problem with Piloted Shredder is that it just means that any new 4-drop they add to the game is going to have to be PRETTY GOOD if it's going to compete with Piloted Shredder for a spot in your deck. Obviously they can't make cards THAT powerful for 4 mana so the only way they can actually add playable 4 mana cards to the game is make them heavily synergy based or make them fufill specific roles, like Mechanical Yeti in a deck with Archmage Antonidas or Twilight Guardian as a 4 mana good dragon with taunt. Piloted Shredder may be just under the 'op' line but it still limits design space for cards and that kind of sucks.
Just under? the OP line? The card is a staple in every single deck except Freeze Mage and Dragon Priest do to synergy. If a card is an auto include in every aggro, midrange and most control decks, it's considered OP in my book.
I also agree that hearthstone needs more cards that are control oriented. One thing that to me seems weird is that Taunt can be silenced. When I started playing, I didn't expect that to be the case. I think that this is a fundamental game flaw.
Big Taunts are more efficient than small ones compared to regular minions of the same cost
A single big taunt can be silenced leading to your immediate loss
Taunts have lower stats per mana and low attack, so they are less efficient against many minions
Therefore it makes more sense to have big taunts, yet this has huge disadvantages in removal and silence.
Now, it would change the metagame a lot to implement Taunt as a non-silenceable trait, but ultimately I think it would benefit the game. If not, perhaps Ironbeak Owl needs to be removed.
Also there should be at least a couple more cards like Bolf Ramshield. It's a good concept. Totally useless card, but a couple minions like this could helpful.
Also Loatheb is stupidly op. An interesting card, sure, but it almost entirely prevents removal against your board.
I disagree with most of those changes, except for a few: Explosive Trap, Knife Juggler, Piloted Shredder (although I think it would never see play anymore with that nerf), Quick Shot, Savage Roar (maybe, still undecided), and Shield Slam. I think Brawl and Divine Favor could use a mana increase, but not such a drastiv run. Brawl at 6 and Divine Favor at 4 would be balanced, I think.
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This is my attempt to balance the overpowered cards that dominate the meta. I am interested in various opinions on how these cards should be balanced, as well as other cards that are imbalanced.
I don't want to whine about specific deck builds being annoying. But minions and spells should be able to be reasonably countered in general. That said, I like the various deck themes and don't want any to disappear. 38 cards below.
Armorsmith
Azure Drake
Big Game Hunter
Brawl
Cabal Shadow Priest
Darnassus Aspirant
Death's Bite
Divine Favor
Dr. Boom
Emperor Thaurissan
Equality
Explosive Trap
Fire Elemental
Flamewaker
Freezing Trap
Hex
Justicar Trueheart
Knife Juggler
Lightbomb
Loatheb
Mad Scientist
Mana Wyrm
Murloc Knight
Muster for Battle
Mysterious Challenger
Piloted Shredder
Quick Shot
Ragnaros the Firelord
Savage Roar
Savannah Highmane
Shield Slam
Shielded Minibot
Sylvanas Windrunner
Tirion Fordring
Unstable Portal
Voidcaller
Warsong Commander (Once above 3 attack a minion loses Charge)
Ysera
No way! This would killing too many viable cards at once.
I respectfully disagree with the volume of changes.
You... You wanna buy a funnel cake?
Azure Drake, Cabal, Brawl, Darnassus(it dies to one drops so.....), DIvine Favor(really? 6 CMC?),
BGh is wayyy worse. Will be basically useless except in heavy control and maybe fatigue decks. Death's bite is in a worser spot.
Screw it, you are just nerfing every single card in the game, and, at this point, there is no need to explain why the nerfs are too extreme.
Those cards do not need solutions as there are no problems currently. /thread.
I'm sorry but I'm failing to understand the purpose behind these changes. You're nerfing aggro for a bit but then you're also nerfing equality, cabal, sylvanas and shield slam? Many of these changes are unneccesary.
I agree with the Fire Elemental and Hex nerfs, Shaman is so overpowered and dominant in this meta.
/sarcasm
In all seriousness, the Savage Roar, Shielded Minibot, Knife Juggler, Dr. Boom, Mysterious Challenger, Darnassus Aspirant, Shield Slam, Piloted Shredder, Dr. Boom and (maybe) Azure Drake, Mana Wyrm, and Flamewaker nerfs are ok. These are cards used by a variety of classes that are simply stronger than nearly all alternatives. More variety in the actually viable cards available for constructed would be good for the game, I think.
I think with the adjustments most of those cards would still see play, but not every deck would have the same cards in certain slots. There's a generic neutral drop for each mana cost that fits into most decks. For example:
Can you tell what deck this is? I can't :P
By design, class cards should be slightly superior to neutrals, yet many neutrals completely out-value class minions at that mana cost. Different deck types should have very little overlap, but in almost every deck there's a shredder, drake, dr. boom, etc. completely regardless of whether it's aggro, midrange, control, or combo. I don't think this all promotes the best metagame - I think it could be balanced better, which would see more interesting gameplay. There are also some class-cards that are way better than other classes' equivalents. While each class should have its advantage over others in certain areas, there are definitely some that don't really make sense. For example, Brawl and Lightbomb are completely superior to other classes' top single-card AoE, such as Twisting Nether, Flamestrike, Consecration, Elemental Destruction, Explosive Shot, and Starfall. It's not surprising that Priest and Warrior are by far the top control classes. Paladin and Warlock both get 2-card fantastic AoE, but card advantage is important in control.
If you disagree with whether or how a card should be rebalanced, first consider it from the perspective of facing it. As Death's Bite was mentioned, we'll consider it:
As a 5-mana 4/3 with the same deathrattle, its synergy is reduced, but it's still a fantastic card and would probably still be auto-included in every warrior deck, perhaps with only 1 instead of 2. Some cards need to be put in a worse mana-slot to be more balanced.
Since Divine Favor was also mentioned - it's a very broken card. Card advantage is supposed to be a fundamental aspect of card games, yet 3 mana to even it out is crazy. It is much more similar to Sprint than to Arcane Intellect.
There's very little chance that hearthstone devs would make these type of changes, and it would be very unlikely that they would do it all simultaneously. Discussion as to implementation is not my goal with this thread.
P.S. Although Shaman is definitely not used or overpowered right now, those are cards that are relatively overpowered. They really need to reduce the overload cost on lots of Shaman cards to start. I was also thinking about Blade Flurry from 2 mana -> 3 mana, as it combos too easily right now. But nobody plays Rogue either.
Why nerf control-oriented cards when aggro is so overwhelming at the moment?
Also I do not see the point of nerfing + 7 mana cards. Cards that cost a lot should be powerful. Most of them are not, and do not see play because of it.
That's a lot cards.
Honestly the only cards I can really see being nerfed there is Piloted Shredder and Savannah Highmane.
I won't go into details but these cards just seemed like they were not tested enough, the value you get for their cost if overpowered. They both deserve the legendary status.
The rest of the nerfs are unjustified in my humble opinion.
Well Met!
Why? Most of those cards are fine as they are. You also nerfed a lot of control cards and Shaman cards which are already in a bad spot. There's no reason to nerf every card in the game that's played. Not every playable card in the game is broken. Most of them aren't. A lot of those changes would also just make aggro decks even MORE dominant since you're making the cards that control decks have to deal with them trash tier.
I am nerfing control-oriented cards because they are very imbalanced compared to other classes. I agree that, in general, the metagame is overly aggressive. If the meta would still be considered this way by most players with these changes, then clearly more adjustments need to be made.
I do think that many of the adjustments I suggest (Mad Scientist, Darnassus, Knife Juggler, Minibot, Explosive Trap, Loatheb, Shredder, Drake, Quick Shot, etc.) would slow down the meta quite a lot and make aggro/tempo less overwhelmingly dominant. Perhaps Leper Gnome's deathrattle should be reduced to 1 damage to the enemy hero, for starters.
But despite wanting to slow down games a little bit, control shouldn't dominate either. There should be a balance between deck types and themes.
Most of the nerfs are just a stat point and are very boring. Also, i would consider Tirion and possibly death's bite as being buffed. But you have also nerfed quite a few cards that don't need a nerf to being almost unplayable
Proud creater of 'hand' rogue
nice joke , you make me laugh a lot , thx
WTF
First 7 mana Brawl then 6 mana Divine favor and I stopped reading. Obvious troll post lol.
Well Met!
I also agree that hearthstone needs more cards that are control oriented. One thing that to me seems weird is that Taunt can be silenced. When I started playing, I didn't expect that to be the case. I think that this is a fundamental game flaw.
Therefore it makes more sense to have big taunts, yet this has huge disadvantages in removal and silence.
Now, it would change the metagame a lot to implement Taunt as a non-silenceable trait, but ultimately I think it would benefit the game. If not, perhaps Ironbeak Owl needs to be removed.
Also there should be at least a couple more cards like Bolf Ramshield. It's a good concept. Totally useless card, but a couple minions like this could helpful.
Also Loatheb is stupidly op. An interesting card, sure, but it almost entirely prevents removal against your board.
I disagree with most of those changes, except for a few: Explosive Trap, Knife Juggler, Piloted Shredder (although I think it would never see play anymore with that nerf), Quick Shot, Savage Roar (maybe, still undecided), and Shield Slam. I think Brawl and Divine Favor could use a mana increase, but not such a drastiv run. Brawl at 6 and Divine Favor at 4 would be balanced, I think.