It's not my fault Blizzard refuses to print creative cards that generate new archetypes. Miracle Rogue will never be topped. We have reached the peak of what Rogue is capable of.
It's not my fault Blizzard refuses to print creative cards that generate new archetypes. Miracle Rogue will never be topped. We have reached the peak of what Rogue is capable of.
Except there is already a precedent for this sort of effect. Burgle rogue was never good. Even with a card like burgle that actually generated cards wasn't that great. This card doesn't generate cards it only transforms what you have. So you have to have trash spells in hand, you have to have her in hand, you have to have those spells now transform into something good. If your opponent has a board (which they most likely will since you have been top decking trash, then you also need to have enough mana remaining to cast of those spells to get back tempo.
Her only upside currently is that she does create some potential tempo.
And you are right, she doesn't belong in miracle, she'd want to go into some new type of deck. The problem is even in some new archetype all the issues above persist. There is something to be said for turning spells that you drew that no longer have a purpose into something else, but again, if that is the case you are likely playing from behind because you have been drawing inefficiently. Her mediocre tempo boost HAS to be paired with a strong spell on the same turn, that is a difficult prospect due to RNG and mana constraints.
I'll experiment if I pull her, for certain. But that isn't going to stop me from making a prediction on the usefulness of the card. I hope, dearly I am wrong because I would be a rogue main if it wasn't for the fact that only miracle (and quest, which was miraclesque) has ever been a ladderable archetype. I just don't think this card is the card that changes that. Valeera the Hollow on the other hand...
It's not my fault Blizzard refuses to print creative cards that generate new archetypes. Miracle Rogue will never be topped. We have reached the peak of what Rogue is capable of.
Except there is already a precedent for this sort of effect. Burgle rogue was never good. Even with a card like burgle that actually generated cards wasn't that great. This card doesn't generate cards it only transforms what you have. So you have to have trash spells in hand, you have to have her in hand, you have to have those spells now transform into something good. If your opponent has a board (which they most likely will since you have been top decking trash, then you also need to have enough mana remaining to cast of those spells to get back tempo.
Her only upside currently is that she does create some potential tempo.
And you are right, she doesn't belong in miracle, she'd want to go into some new type of deck. The problem is even in some new archetype all the issues above persist. There is something to be said for turning spells that you drew that no longer have a purpose into something else, but again, if that is the case you are likely playing from behind because you have been drawing inefficiently. Her mediocre tempo boost HAS to be paired with a strong spell on the same turn, that is a difficult prospect due to RNG and mana constraints.
I'll experiment if I pull her, for certain. But that isn't going to stop me from making a prediction on the usefulness of the card. I hope, dearly I am wrong because I would be a rogue main if it wasn't for the fact that only miracle (and quest, which was miraclesque) has ever been a ladderable archetype. I just don't think this card is the card that changes that. Valeera the Hollow on the other hand...
Perfect! So you agree with me! No need to theorycraft anything for Rogue ever again, because if it doesn't contain "miracle" in the title and doesn't contain "gadgetzan auctioneer" in the decklist, it's total crap!
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It's not my fault Blizzard refuses to print creative cards that generate new archetypes. Miracle Rogue will never be topped. We have reached the peak of what Rogue is capable of.
Except there is already a precedent for this sort of effect. Burgle rogue was never good. Even with a card like burgle that actually generated cards wasn't that great. This card doesn't generate cards it only transforms what you have. So you have to have trash spells in hand, you have to have her in hand, you have to have those spells now transform into something good. If your opponent has a board (which they most likely will since you have been top decking trash, then you also need to have enough mana remaining to cast of those spells to get back tempo.
Her only upside currently is that she does create some potential tempo.
And you are right, she doesn't belong in miracle, she'd want to go into some new type of deck. The problem is even in some new archetype all the issues above persist. There is something to be said for turning spells that you drew that no longer have a purpose into something else, but again, if that is the case you are likely playing from behind because you have been drawing inefficiently. Her mediocre tempo boost HAS to be paired with a strong spell on the same turn, that is a difficult prospect due to RNG and mana constraints.
I'll experiment if I pull her, for certain. But that isn't going to stop me from making a prediction on the usefulness of the card. I hope, dearly I am wrong because I would be a rogue main if it wasn't for the fact that only miracle (and quest, which was miraclesque) has ever been a ladderable archetype. I just don't think this card is the card that changes that. Valeera the Hollow on the other hand...
Perfect! So you agree with me! No need to theorycraft anything for Rogue ever again, because if it doesn't contain "miracle" in the title and doesn't contain "gadgetzan auctioneer" in the decklist, it's total crap!
Honestly man you are so often sarcastic that I have no idea if you are being serious. So I'll reply as if you are. Theory crafting is something I highly promote. But just because I am theory crafting, or perhaps because I am theory crafting is why this card looks rough around the edges to me. It's difficult for me to think of an archetype (not miracle or quest) where I would welcome her effect. If I can build some control rogue I wouldn't want her in there, if she generated spells, in heart beat though. I can't see her fitting into a mill variant. Jade couldn't utilize her well. I thought about trying to stick her into some mid-range rogue with some of the new cards and plants. Since plants actually generate low impact spells that won't be overall important to the midrange game plan I can turn them into other spells. Worse case I use the razor petals to just bring back Sherazin. I haven't considered Burgle rogue to heavily though she could fit in there to re-roll burgled spells that suck.
I digress. I think there is plenty of reason to theory craft. After all we are all only guessing at her effectiveness right? It's certainly not the first time people would be wrong on a rogue card. I wouldn't call other rogue variants total crap either. I'd call them under supported. The rogue base cards just lends itself so well to miracle and Auctioneer that it's difficult to make something better. That is a blizzard issue. All the more reason to theory craft new cards.
Oh and just in case you were being sarcastic again, I am not sure why. Like my whole post above was theory crafting, literally at no point did I say that you or anyone else shouldn't. I even blatantly stated I would experiment with her. I mean here is the rub to the attitude you have been coping all over the place. EVERYONE IS THEORY CRAFTING THESE CARDS, regardless of how certain they are something is good or bad it's a theory craft, so when you get all shitty over people not willing to theory craft as they theory craft it doesn't get your point across at all. Likewise there is no reason for people not to call it like they see it, though I wish people were more constructive than "hur dur shit card won't see play".
Though I'll quit engaging you for a bit. You're angry or at least way more annoyed than seems healthy to me. I am actually trying to theory craft, be constructive and give you real responses, but to me it seems like the only thing you are interested is taking the up the opposite extreme of "hur dur this card is shit".
Again though, if you were actually serious with your comment, then no I disagree.
I just am not seeing how Voss is any better in Rogue than Gadgetzan or Yogg. Maybe you run all 3 and you're like "YOLO RNG" but that just doesn't seem like a thing that is good.
It isn't strictly better than Gadgetzan. It's more like a third Gadgetzan with a way, way better cost/stat-line. You trade in a bunch of low power/useless spell cards in your hand in the mid-late game. Or you play a deck that pads your hand full of 0 or 1 cost token spells (which I have to imagine there's going to be more of in this set) then trade all of those in for better spell cards. Yeah combo initiators for Van Cleef and Sherazin are important, but so is having a hand full of more impactful spells.
And yeah, sometimes you'll get bestial wrath, shatter or shield slam or whatever, but that's the absolute worst case scenario. And if you're pulling multiple cards from your opponent, you might eventually get some synergy. It really depends.
The main upside to me is generating token spells like razorpetals or bananas or coins and then converting them into class spells. Converting spells that you actually chose to put in your deck doesn't seem like an effect worth putting in your deck. Of course it will be sometimes useful but in general I'd rather have the cards I put in my deck.
The main upside to me is generating token spells like razorpetals or bananas or coins and then converting them into class spells. Converting spells that you actually chose to put in your deck doesn't seem like an effect worth putting in your deck. Of course it will be sometimes useful but in general I'd rather have the cards I put in my deck.
You just need to be sure you make a deck that doesn't rely on those cheap generated spells to do things like miracle. Additionally as this is a legendary you can't really bank on getting the combo out either. Meaning you'll want a set up where you CAN take advantage of cheap spells but it isn't the crux of the deck. Could be decent in burgle rogue, now if burgle rogue itself was good :( Personally I am thinking of trying to piece together a midrange deck with sherazin (plants in gereral).
Yeah, but Blizzard could've think of another name, not just pick one fom Mtg and change two letters...
It's actually an established Wow lore character. She's not tied to Icecrown in any way, tho.
Yeah, I realized that after, cause I don't know WoW lore good
So apparently, after looking into it, I figured that Lilian Voss is actually named after the MtG card, but the WoW character was created and named back in 2009.
Ok I thought about this card and can give you my final evaluation.
As someone who reached legend last season with Burgle Aggro rogue, I can honestly say Lilian Voss is a bad card in any serious burgle deck.
Most of the times your Burgle effects will give you the exact opposite of what you want. I faced a lot of warriors and warriors have really poweful cards to burgle. But everytime I faced Pirare warr I was getting aggressive cards and every time I faced Taunt warriors I was getting taunt minions.
And spells aren't even the best you can get. Well yeah, against Hunter, they are, but against warr, priest or shaman you want mostly their good minions.
She's too slow, and the main reason is, their aren't many spells you would be willing to transform - you need razorpetals to deal damage, can't just spare them - we don't have a reliable efficient Coin generator yet, after Tomb Pillager left standart - and you don't wanna just reroll you previously burgled spells, you wanna use those as soon as convinient, you don't have infinite time to wait for the right opportunity, or to wait for them to get hit by this card. The only card you would love to reroll are like Totemic Might or Shield Slam, but you won't get those every game, and even if you do, there are games when I utilised Totemic Might on some totems I burgled.
And the biggest peoblem here is the same as with Ethereal Peddler, you will only hit one or two spells.
Worst than Shaku, The Collector but better than Ethereal Peddler. maybe in fiture expansion, when we get more Coin generators.
I will definitely craft this and try it out, but I don't expect her to stay in my deck.
Yeah, but Blizzard could've think of another name, not just pick one fom Mtg and change two letters...
It's actually an established Wow lore character. She's not tied to Icecrown in any way, tho.
Yeah, I realized that after, cause I don't know WoW lore good
So apparently, after looking into it, I figured that Lilian Voss is actually named after the MtG card, but the WoW character was created and named back in 2009.
Oh, thank you very much for this, you didn't have to do that, but again, thank you!
Yeah, but Blizzard could've think of another name, not just pick one fom Mtg and change two letters...
It's actually an established Wow lore character. She's not tied to Icecrown in any way, tho.
Yeah, I realized that after, cause I don't know WoW lore good
So apparently, after looking into it, I figured that Lilian Voss is actually named after the MtG card, but the WoW character was created and named back in 2009.
Oh, thank you very much for this, you didn't have to do that, but again, thank you!
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Lilian Voss is not actually named after this card! Believe it or not, that was a total coincidence, as one of our designers happened to go to school with a guy named "Voss."
I just looked on a random site with "Lilian Voss name reference" and this showed up. I don't know.
Lilian Voss is not actually named after this card! Believe it or not, that was a total coincidence, as one of our designers happened to go to school with a guy named "Voss."
I just looked on a random site with "Lilian Voss name reference" and this showed up. I don't know.
Ok, so Lilian Vess was created and published sometime in 2009, while Lilian Voss was unrelatedly created somewhere in 2009, published on December 2010. SO, despite what Blizzard says, some dude working on WoW in 2009 might have just buy the new MtG pack and name the character after the card. That would be huge coincidence, judging by how the Original Lilian Vess art is also a shadowy undead female.
I still think this legendary is lackluster but I don't think it's as bad as I initially thought. I originally only considered Lilian Voss as a coin converter. However, I admit I actually forgot about the razorleaf petals that can be transformed as well, which does add more value to her.
Does that make her good? Maybe. She may see play in fringe decks. I personally don't think so but I will admit that I don't think she's quite as bad as I originally gave her credit for.
Get over yourself, man.
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It isn't strictly better than Gadgetzan. It's more like a third Gadgetzan with a way, way better cost/stat-line. You trade in a bunch of low power/useless spell cards in your hand in the mid-late game. Or you play a deck that pads your hand full of 0 or 1 cost token spells (which I have to imagine there's going to be more of in this set) then trade all of those in for better spell cards. Yeah combo initiators for Van Cleef and Sherazin are important, but so is having a hand full of more impactful spells.
And yeah, sometimes you'll get bestial wrath, shatter or shield slam or whatever, but that's the absolute worst case scenario. And if you're pulling multiple cards from your opponent, you might eventually get some synergy. It really depends.
The main upside to me is generating token spells like razorpetals or bananas or coins and then converting them into class spells. Converting spells that you actually chose to put in your deck doesn't seem like an effect worth putting in your deck. Of course it will be sometimes useful but in general I'd rather have the cards I put in my deck.
Ok I thought about this card and can give you my final evaluation.
As someone who reached legend last season with Burgle Aggro rogue, I can honestly say Lilian Voss is a bad card in any serious burgle deck.
Most of the times your Burgle effects will give you the exact opposite of what you want. I faced a lot of warriors and warriors have really poweful cards to burgle. But everytime I faced Pirare warr I was getting aggressive cards and every time I faced Taunt warriors I was getting taunt minions.
And spells aren't even the best you can get. Well yeah, against Hunter, they are, but against warr, priest or shaman you want mostly their good minions.
She's too slow, and the main reason is, their aren't many spells you would be willing to transform - you need razorpetals to deal damage, can't just spare them - we don't have a reliable efficient Coin generator yet, after Tomb Pillager left standart - and you don't wanna just reroll you previously burgled spells, you wanna use those as soon as convinient, you don't have infinite time to wait for the right opportunity, or to wait for them to get hit by this card. The only card you would love to reroll are like Totemic Might or Shield Slam, but you won't get those every game, and even if you do, there are games when I utilised Totemic Might on some totems I burgled.
And the biggest peoblem here is the same as with Ethereal Peddler, you will only hit one or two spells.
Worst than Shaku, The Collector but better than Ethereal Peddler. maybe in fiture expansion, when we get more Coin generators.
I will definitely craft this and try it out, but I don't expect her to stay in my deck.
She's not Dust It, but she's Bad.
SO, despite what Blizzard says, some dude working on WoW in 2009 might have just buy the new MtG pack and name the character after the card.
That would be huge coincidence, judging by how the Original Lilian Vess art is also a shadowy undead female.
Don't even care what you think his stats are nice and has a cool mechanic
A Miracle/Mech/Burgle hybrid in Wild could look more or less like this:
[deck]
I think it can work with some more refinement. Not top tier maybe, but a lot of fun for sure.
I still think this legendary is lackluster but I don't think it's as bad as I initially thought. I originally only considered Lilian Voss as a coin converter. However, I admit I actually forgot about the razorleaf petals that can be transformed as well, which does add more value to her.
Does that make her good? Maybe. She may see play in fringe decks. I personally don't think so but I will admit that I don't think she's quite as bad as I originally gave her credit for.
Get coint from Burgly Bully and then turn it all to big spell, sounds good in the perfect world
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