I agree with nerfing Argent Braggart, but that's about it.
Guardian Animals can't be nerfed, it's also a hunter card and it's not a problem there at all. If this needs nerfed I think the target is Twilight Runner. I think Overgrowth would be a really lame card at 5 mana too. Barely better than Nourish at that point. Solarion Prime is strong but requires a ton of investment. I think the mage spell pool in general is a bigger problem, and Solarion Prime is another card that would just be kinda limp at 4 cards.
The Blastmaster Boom nerf is lame. That's really arbitrary. While it's a powerful card, I'd probably hit bomb warrior somewhere else. The wrenchcalibur nerf is a little more sensible I think, though that makes the card pretty weak in anything that's not strictly bomb warrior. The Demon Hunter nerfs seem totally unnecessary to me. So does Greyheart Sage. You could probably nerf it's stats a little. (2/3? 3/2?) But I think increasing it's cost really kills the card.
Shaman buffs might be okay, I think buffing Tidal Wave would be a huge mistake. But the Nithogg buff seems all right to me. The main problem with that is the card is cycling in six months, so I dunno if it's worth it. Vashj is fine.
Also yeah I'd like them to just kill Tortollan mage. I'm really not a fan of those sort of degenerative combo decks that just grind you out. There either needs to be more counterplay besides crummy tech cards, or they need to kill the deck.
I'm surprised it's only really Braggart you agree with seeing as Paladin is less powerful than the other decks targeted, if that was the only nerf paladin would struggle more if other decks left the same. I obviously do think Braggart does need a slight nerf though.
Druid is oppressive right now when it draws well, which is often. Fair point on GA being a hunter card though hadn't considered that. I do think it's the ramp that needs targeting and it can't be Wild Growth. Using Wild growth as an example though, if 3 mana is worth 1 mana ramp overgrowth is obviously under costed at 4 mana. I think 5 mana is very reasonable in that case.
As mentioned looking at HSreplay at some bomb warrior decks, Blastmaster Boom literally has a 77%+ played win rate, that's insane I don't think I've seen anything as high nor can I find any looking now. Seems like a pretty obvious nerf candidate to target bomb warrior.
I don't think Tidal Wave will ever see serious play at 8 mana.
Argent Braggart is just the only nerf I agree with because it's a really simple nerf that nerfs a very excessively powerful card but keeps it very playable. I think there're other nerfs in classes that could happen, just don't agree with your specific nerf proposals.
Overgrowth at 5 mana is just so underwhelming and it's such a lynchpin card for Marsh Hydra, Bogbeam, etc. Even if it's too strong at 4. I think if there's an issue with druid, it might be the critical mass of ramp (Breath of Dreams, Wild Growth, Overgrowth), but without Overgrowth I think that deck (which isn't that strong) is pretty horrible. I think the bigger issue I have with ramp druid is how excessive it is at the top end, but I really don't know how to nerf those cards
If you nerf Bomb warrior overall you nerf Blastmaster Boom. Blastmaster Boom is entirely dependent on the deck's ability to put bombs into your opponent's deck. You nerf bombs, you nerf boom. But I'm not sure what form that should take. I think changing Wrenchcalibur to be BC/DR makes a lot of sense but that might be too hard a hit on the deck.
I agree with nerfing Argent Braggart, but that's about it.
Guardian Animals can't be nerfed, it's also a hunter card and it's not a problem there at all. If this needs nerfed I think the target is Twilight Runner. I think Overgrowth would be a really lame card at 5 mana too. Barely better than Nourish at that point. Solarion Prime is strong but requires a ton of investment. I think the mage spell pool in general is a bigger problem, and Solarion Prime is another card that would just be kinda limp at 4 cards.
The Blastmaster Boom nerf is lame. That's really arbitrary. While it's a powerful card, I'd probably hit bomb warrior somewhere else. The wrenchcalibur nerf is a little more sensible I think, though that makes the card pretty weak in anything that's not strictly bomb warrior. The Demon Hunter nerfs seem totally unnecessary to me. So does Greyheart Sage. You could probably nerf it's stats a little. (2/3? 3/2?) But I think increasing it's cost really kills the card.
Shaman buffs might be okay, I think buffing Tidal Wave would be a huge mistake. But the Nithogg buff seems all right to me. The main problem with that is the card is cycling in six months, so I dunno if it's worth it. Vashj is fine.
Also yeah I'd like them to just kill Tortollan mage. I'm really not a fan of those sort of degenerative combo decks that just grind you out. There either needs to be more counterplay besides crummy tech cards, or they need to kill the deck.
Everyone says "Blizzard stated that the game is rigged ages ago." I would appreciate a link, or article, or ANYTHING that proves that you aren't talking bullshit. Please just clearly lay out the evidence without throwing jabs.
All you have to do is scroll up on this page to post 19373.
A: Since each player starts at the bottom of the ladder at start, we want fair matches for everyone (aka. win-rate close to 50%).
That isn't rigging the game. That's trying to make sure people get fair, competitive matches. The matchmaking has to match you against somebody. Unless you want it to be totally random.
Sorry but the "absurd amount of work" argument went out the window with ZTG. It's not that difficult.
Zephrys took tons of reiterating and still doesn't give the perfect card half the time.
You think they're doing this for thousands of situations for hundreds of players and different deck archetypes cards?
To what end? What do they actually get out of this? If you actually watch pro streams they don't really get lucky anymore than anyone else does.
I explained this two days ago. Here it is again:
If you don't see what they have to gain by this then you don't understand that this is a business. People that are spoon fed cards on curve and top deck winners play longer. When they are eventually beat by a certain deck featuring cards that they don't have they spend money to either discover one or get enough dust to create one. They then achieve the same approximate 50% win rate that Blizzard has stated as their goal, try another deck and the cycle repeats. This is basic shit here.
This makes no sense. Why would Blizzard need to plot to make this a reality? This is how the game is already designed without need for Blizzard to directly interfere.
Conspiracy theory was a term developed to discredit people telling truths that the power structure did not want spoken. It was a way to discrediting people without having to deal with the subject they are talking about. So when the mods here say they don't want conspiracy theories, what they really don't want is people to speak the truth about this game.
Um, bullshit? Conspiracy theories are theories based on no or weak evidence meant to incite others. If you don't have proof, it's not the truth. And even if it's true, you're more likely to be right by coincidence.
People don't even present STATISTICS when they talk about Blizzard stacking the game, or whatever they think they're doing. They just go "Oh, it feels true,"
And this wouldn't be the thread for that anyway...
Anyway, I'm sick of getting high rolled. Kinda wish the game wasn't built around it quite as much.
Your modernity brainwashing has taught you that you need an exact smoking gun to believe anything. Have the guts to stop being in denial about things that everyone knows it’s true. That’s called an open secret. Don’t go and say game isn’t rigged then contradict yourself in the very next sentence. Stop being naive.
I mean you need evidence to prove a truth, that's not "modernity". And I didn't contradict myself. If you're right, and Blizzard is stacking the code (which they have no reason to do as far as I can tell) then you were right because you assumed the worst and you were salty because you lost, not because you had actual evidence of wrongdoing.
Top decks win games because the decks only have 30 cards in them, and you don't put bad cards into your deck. Random gifts from mage win games because mage cards are insanely swing-y and you can generate a good 10-20 cards (giving you good odds on getting frostbolt or pyroblast or fireball or whatever). Most of them either burn the opponent's face or freeze things or summon big minions. Priest spells all are the same. Everything you generate is potentially geared towards WINNING YOU THE GAME.
There is nothing conspiratorial about excessive RNG, manacheating, manipulative matchmaking, or the set patterns of nerfs that hit every expansions most excessive cards right before next expansion.
The fact remains that this game is being excessively manipulated by algorithms to try to maintain 50% wins for all players AS STATED BY BLIZZARD. That means there are safeguards implemented to keep you from wins and anyone who has played this game can tell by looking at exactly how you lose.
No, but that's not what people are talking about. People are insinuating that Blizzard is intentionally gearing the CODE to win or lose games based on... I don't even know what parameters. It'd actually be pretty difficult to bias the game in a subtle enough way that no one would notice. People just really don't understand how statistics work. (i.e. Devolving Missiles must be bugged because sometimes it only hits one target, and it's not supposed to do that -- even though it totally can do that and it isn't that unlikely.)
Excessive RNG being a problem is debatable. It feels bad to lose to I guess, but the bulk of CCGs and TCGs are luck-based. And mana cheating has always been in this game. Sometimes it works well, other times it doesn't. A lot of the combo druid stuff is kind of silly right now but it isn't a problem in concept.
Matchmaking tries to even out your win/loss record. It's always worked that way in every Blizzard game I've played. That's manipulative I guess, but it also makes the experience pretty fair/fun for everyone. If you're getting a 55-60% winrate you climb, if you're not, then you probably hit a threshold and need to work out a way to get your winrate up slightly to start climbing ranks. This is really not a problem. The only way they could change this is if they made it COMPLETELY random.
The nerf thing isn't really that big a deal, they should give more compensation than they do when they nerf cards (because it impacts your whole DECK, not just the card they nerfed) and they should NEVER nerf cards that were gifts (and they've been doing that a lot lately), but that has nothing to do with them rigging the game. It's just a bad business practice.
Yeah I would like to believe that to...if it weren't for three factors:
1. They admitted to the stated 50% goal win percentage for all players...not us. This was stated years ago.
2. This is far easier to accomplish then you obviously think. You can lose by simply running into a counter deck. Not to mention other aspects such as rng/discover, top decking/class counter etc.
3 This is a business and they want your money above everything else. They lack of desire to balance this game, tune down rng, or buff basic cards are just a few examples of their intent towards the fan base. And yes I'm also positive Blizzard plants and shills are active on this board among others trying to convince people otherwise.
1. Um, yeah I know. Like I said, every Blizzard games' matchmaker wants to put your winrate from 45-55%. SC1, WC3, HotS, Hearthstone, SC2. If the matchmaker is doing it's job you should have a 45-55% winrate. If you're winning too much or losing too much, the matchmaker is doing a bad job pairing you with equally skilled opponents. 2. Like I dunno why or how you think Blizzard would go to all the trouble of stacking topdecks and keeping track of perfect counter decks, and programming the matchmaker that way, it'd be an absurd amount of work for almost no payoff except to... annoy the player base. 3. They do balance patches all the time, so of course they're trying to balance the game, they like RNG -- RNG isn't necessarily a bad mechanic just because some people don't like it, and... buffing basic cards? Why would they do that? They've already stated they have plans to redo the classic/basic set. How does that prove Blizzard is rigging the game?
Conspiracy theory was a term developed to discredit people telling truths that the power structure did not want spoken. It was a way to discrediting people without having to deal with the subject they are talking about. So when the mods here say they don't want conspiracy theories, what they really don't want is people to speak the truth about this game.
Um, bullshit? Conspiracy theories are theories based on no or weak evidence meant to incite others. If you don't have proof, it's not the truth. And even if it's true, you're more likely to be right by coincidence.
People don't even present STATISTICS when they talk about Blizzard stacking the game, or whatever they think they're doing. They just go "Oh, it feels true,"
And this wouldn't be the thread for that anyway...
Anyway, I'm sick of getting high rolled. Kinda wish the game wasn't built around it quite as much.
Your modernity brainwashing has taught you that you need an exact smoking gun to believe anything. Have the guts to stop being in denial about things that everyone knows it’s true. That’s called an open secret. Don’t go and say game isn’t rigged then contradict yourself in the very next sentence. Stop being naive.
I mean you need evidence to prove a truth, that's not "modernity". And I didn't contradict myself. If you're right, and Blizzard is stacking the code (which they have no reason to do as far as I can tell) then you were right because you assumed the worst and you were salty because you lost, not because you had actual evidence of wrongdoing.
Top decks win games because the decks only have 30 cards in them, and you don't put bad cards into your deck. Random gifts from mage win games because mage cards are insanely swing-y and you can generate a good 10-20 cards (giving you good odds on getting frostbolt or pyroblast or fireball or whatever). Most of them either burn the opponent's face or freeze things or summon big minions. Priest spells all are the same. Everything you generate is potentially geared towards WINNING YOU THE GAME.
There is nothing conspiratorial about excessive RNG, manacheating, manipulative matchmaking, or the set patterns of nerfs that hit every expansions most excessive cards right before next expansion.
The fact remains that this game is being excessively manipulated by algorithms to try to maintain 50% wins for all players AS STATED BY BLIZZARD. That means there are safeguards implemented to keep you from wins and anyone who has played this game can tell by looking at exactly how you lose.
No, but that's not what people are talking about. People are insinuating that Blizzard is intentionally gearing the CODE to win or lose games based on... I don't even know what parameters. It'd actually be pretty difficult to bias the game in a subtle enough way that no one would notice. People just really don't understand how statistics work. (i.e. Devolving Missiles must be bugged because sometimes it only hits one target, and it's not supposed to do that -- even though it totally can do that and it isn't that unlikely.)
Excessive RNG being a problem is debatable. It feels bad to lose to I guess, but the bulk of CCGs and TCGs are luck-based. And mana cheating has always been in this game. Sometimes it works well, other times it doesn't. A lot of the combo druid stuff is kind of silly right now but it isn't a problem in concept.
Matchmaking tries to even out your win/loss record. It's always worked that way in every Blizzard game I've played. That's manipulative I guess, but it also makes the experience pretty fair/fun for everyone. If you're getting a 55-60% winrate you climb, if you're not, then you probably hit a threshold and need to work out a way to get your winrate up slightly to start climbing ranks. This is really not a problem. The only way they could change this is if they made it COMPLETELY random.
The nerf thing isn't really that big a deal, they should give more compensation than they do when they nerf cards (because it impacts your whole DECK, not just the card they nerfed) and they should NEVER nerf cards that were gifts (and they've been doing that a lot lately), but that has nothing to do with them rigging the game. It's just a bad business practice.
Conspiracy theory was a term developed to discredit people telling truths that the power structure did not want spoken. It was a way to discrediting people without having to deal with the subject they are talking about. So when the mods here say they don't want conspiracy theories, what they really don't want is people to speak the truth about this game.
Um, bullshit? Conspiracy theories are theories based on no or weak evidence meant to incite others. If you don't have proof, it's not the truth. And even if it's true, you're more likely to be right by coincidence.
People don't even present STATISTICS when they talk about Blizzard stacking the game, or whatever they think they're doing. They just go "Oh, it feels true,"
And this wouldn't be the thread for that anyway...
Anyway, I'm sick of getting high rolled. Kinda wish the game wasn't built around it quite as much.
Um, these would be pretty harsh nerfs. The only one I MIGHT agree with is Libram of Wisdom, but that's more because I think that card is kind of obnoxiously designed.
Still not a huge fan of Paladin, and at least on ladder a few of the cards seem a little overtuned. (Mainly Argent Braggart) but I think these were great nerfs and if they need to do more they will.
It's a well known interaction. I think the internal game reasoning is that the spell isn't killing the minion, Slate is.
They're fixing it in the patch, but this never made sense. Professor Slate is NOT killing the minion, he makes spells deadly. His effect isn't directly destroying the minion. It was just a bug.
Druid might be high roll, but the number of different high rolls it has, and the strength of the cards it has that massivly increase it's high roll potential is just boring to play against. I'm not even sure I would say the deck high rolls because it is far too consistent, I would just say it is slightly weak to early game aggro.
I mean it highrolls against slower or control decks if those slower or control decks play for value, but otherwise unless you draw guardian animals you're pretty likely to die early because you're just literally doing nothing until like turn... 5 or 6 and it's potentially too late to catch up.
You should probably be able to disenchant it for a refund, but it's definitely overall a buff. Playing the card a whole turn earlier, or being able to hero power or nether breath or whatever the same turn is a huge buff. You're not playing her for her stats.
0
Argent Braggart is just the only nerf I agree with because it's a really simple nerf that nerfs a very excessively powerful card but keeps it very playable. I think there're other nerfs in classes that could happen, just don't agree with your specific nerf proposals.
Overgrowth at 5 mana is just so underwhelming and it's such a lynchpin card for Marsh Hydra, Bogbeam, etc. Even if it's too strong at 4. I think if there's an issue with druid, it might be the critical mass of ramp (Breath of Dreams, Wild Growth, Overgrowth), but without Overgrowth I think that deck (which isn't that strong) is pretty horrible. I think the bigger issue I have with ramp druid is how excessive it is at the top end, but I really don't know how to nerf those cards
If you nerf Bomb warrior overall you nerf Blastmaster Boom. Blastmaster Boom is entirely dependent on the deck's ability to put bombs into your opponent's deck. You nerf bombs, you nerf boom. But I'm not sure what form that should take. I think changing Wrenchcalibur to be BC/DR makes a lot of sense but that might be too hard a hit on the deck.
0
I agree with nerfing Argent Braggart, but that's about it.
Guardian Animals can't be nerfed, it's also a hunter card and it's not a problem there at all. If this needs nerfed I think the target is Twilight Runner. I think Overgrowth would be a really lame card at 5 mana too. Barely better than Nourish at that point. Solarion Prime is strong but requires a ton of investment. I think the mage spell pool in general is a bigger problem, and Solarion Prime is another card that would just be kinda limp at 4 cards.
The Blastmaster Boom nerf is lame. That's really arbitrary. While it's a powerful card, I'd probably hit bomb warrior somewhere else. The wrenchcalibur nerf is a little more sensible I think, though that makes the card pretty weak in anything that's not strictly bomb warrior. The Demon Hunter nerfs seem totally unnecessary to me. So does Greyheart Sage. You could probably nerf it's stats a little. (2/3? 3/2?) But I think increasing it's cost really kills the card.
Shaman buffs might be okay, I think buffing Tidal Wave would be a huge mistake. But the Nithogg buff seems all right to me. The main problem with that is the card is cycling in six months, so I dunno if it's worth it. Vashj is fine.
Also yeah I'd like them to just kill Tortollan mage. I'm really not a fan of those sort of degenerative combo decks that just grind you out. There either needs to be more counterplay besides crummy tech cards, or they need to kill the deck.
0
That isn't rigging the game. That's trying to make sure people get fair, competitive matches. The matchmaking has to match you against somebody. Unless you want it to be totally random.
This makes no sense. Why would Blizzard need to plot to make this a reality? This is how the game is already designed without need for Blizzard to directly interfere.
0
Zephrys took tons of reiterating and still doesn't give the perfect card half the time.
You think they're doing this for thousands of situations for hundreds of players and different deck archetypes cards?
To what end? What do they actually get out of this? If you actually watch pro streams they don't really get lucky anymore than anyone else does.
0
1. Um, yeah I know. Like I said, every Blizzard games' matchmaker wants to put your winrate from 45-55%. SC1, WC3, HotS, Hearthstone, SC2. If the matchmaker is doing it's job you should have a 45-55% winrate. If you're winning too much or losing too much, the matchmaker is doing a bad job pairing you with equally skilled opponents.
2. Like I dunno why or how you think Blizzard would go to all the trouble of stacking topdecks and keeping track of perfect counter decks, and programming the matchmaker that way, it'd be an absurd amount of work for almost no payoff except to... annoy the player base.
3. They do balance patches all the time, so of course they're trying to balance the game, they like RNG -- RNG isn't necessarily a bad mechanic just because some people don't like it, and... buffing basic cards? Why would they do that? They've already stated they have plans to redo the classic/basic set. How does that prove Blizzard is rigging the game?
1
I mean you need evidence to prove a truth, that's not "modernity". And I didn't contradict myself. If you're right, and Blizzard is stacking the code (which they have no reason to do as far as I can tell) then you were right because you assumed the worst and you were salty because you lost, not because you had actual evidence of wrongdoing.
Top decks win games because the decks only have 30 cards in them, and you don't put bad cards into your deck. Random gifts from mage win games because mage cards are insanely swing-y and you can generate a good 10-20 cards (giving you good odds on getting frostbolt or pyroblast or fireball or whatever). Most of them either burn the opponent's face or freeze things or summon big minions. Priest spells all are the same. Everything you generate is potentially geared towards WINNING YOU THE GAME.
No, but that's not what people are talking about. People are insinuating that Blizzard is intentionally gearing the CODE to win or lose games based on... I don't even know what parameters. It'd actually be pretty difficult to bias the game in a subtle enough way that no one would notice. People just really don't understand how statistics work. (i.e. Devolving Missiles must be bugged because sometimes it only hits one target, and it's not supposed to do that -- even though it totally can do that and it isn't that unlikely.)
Excessive RNG being a problem is debatable. It feels bad to lose to I guess, but the bulk of CCGs and TCGs are luck-based. And mana cheating has always been in this game. Sometimes it works well, other times it doesn't. A lot of the combo druid stuff is kind of silly right now but it isn't a problem in concept.
Matchmaking tries to even out your win/loss record. It's always worked that way in every Blizzard game I've played. That's manipulative I guess, but it also makes the experience pretty fair/fun for everyone. If you're getting a 55-60% winrate you climb, if you're not, then you probably hit a threshold and need to work out a way to get your winrate up slightly to start climbing ranks. This is really not a problem. The only way they could change this is if they made it COMPLETELY random.
The nerf thing isn't really that big a deal, they should give more compensation than they do when they nerf cards (because it impacts your whole DECK, not just the card they nerfed) and they should NEVER nerf cards that were gifts (and they've been doing that a lot lately), but that has nothing to do with them rigging the game. It's just a bad business practice.
2
Um, bullshit? Conspiracy theories are theories based on no or weak evidence meant to incite others. If you don't have proof, it's not the truth. And even if it's true, you're more likely to be right by coincidence.
People don't even present STATISTICS when they talk about Blizzard stacking the game, or whatever they think they're doing. They just go "Oh, it feels true,"
And this wouldn't be the thread for that anyway...
Anyway, I'm sick of getting high rolled. Kinda wish the game wasn't built around it quite as much.
0
Um, these would be pretty harsh nerfs. The only one I MIGHT agree with is Libram of Wisdom, but that's more because I think that card is kind of obnoxiously designed.
0
I dunno how Argent Braggart has STILL gone without a nerf.
Playing two 11/14s for 4 mana is... what? Reasonable? Christ.
0
Still not a huge fan of Paladin, and at least on ladder a few of the cards seem a little overtuned. (Mainly Argent Braggart) but I think these were great nerfs and if they need to do more they will.
0
They're fixing it in the patch, but this never made sense. Professor Slate is NOT killing the minion, he makes spells deadly. His effect isn't directly destroying the minion. It was just a bug.
0
I mean it highrolls against slower or control decks if those slower or control decks play for value, but otherwise unless you draw guardian animals you're pretty likely to die early because you're just literally doing nothing until like turn... 5 or 6 and it's potentially too late to catch up.
0
You should probably be able to disenchant it for a refund, but it's definitely overall a buff. Playing the card a whole turn earlier, or being able to hero power or nether breath or whatever the same turn is a huge buff. You're not playing her for her stats.
0
Tiny nerf, big buff.
Getting that play out a turn earlier is more significant than losing a couple of stats.
Uh, yeah I'm kinda confused Argent Braggart didn't get nerfed at all?
2
I mean it is free, but they could be a little less stingy about it than that.