Rogues are hanging by a thread as playable in the spell/combo niche. I would agree a few cards MAY be nerfable, such as blade fury, but I would love to see a few more cards to help the class as a whole before that happens. My down and dirty analysis of rogue comes down to this:
There is so much emphasis and weapons, it's the freakin' hero power for goodness sake. Yet there is very little to help with survivability. There are tempo slowing cards like sap, but that only stalls. Stalling is great for a combo type game but not so great for control. You still have to deal with the threat later. So lets say armor is out for rogues, makes no sense. Healing does, rogues use potions and poisons as well as abilities like recuperate. So lets add some ways of healing for the class. Also subtlety is a big part of a thief class, so some cards that alter the state of battle in your favor could be neat. My first thought would be secrets but that would be an entire design overhaul. Maybe a weird sort of secret alternative, like a collection of minions that are unidentifiable while stealth-ed but have effects. Or cards that do something about what has been done the previous turn. Like "Shadow Clone, All damage done to you since the end of your turn is healed." I'm not sure exactly what it needs, but rogues need something to make them more than a one trick wombo/combo pony.
Ugh, in what universe does Rogue need a nerf? Why can't they get Mysterious Challenger or Muster for Battle? How about 2 mana secrets? it fits the archetype. And please FtLoG stop throwing around the term 'design space' as if you have ever designed a game in your entire life.
In what Blade Flurry is a problem ? You guys have problems with maths.
Hero power (2 mana) + Deadly Poison (1 mana) + Blade Flurry (3 mana) is a 3 (and not 5 !!!!!) damage AoE for 5 mana and two cards ! Spell damage a problem ? So then nerf Consecration because it deals 3 damage to the board AND the face for only 4 mana and only one card with spell damage !!! Wow such OP, much broken, wow !
Let's delete the only decent AoE Rogue has, and while we're at it, the only decent removal (Sap). Some even talked about nerfing Edwin VanCleef ... there are at leat 30 cards to be nerfed before these ones. Why not completely remove the whole class altogether ? If Sap and Blade Flurry are so broken, why do most Rogue lists run only one copy of each ?
The only problematic Rogue card is Master of Disguise. There is no OP Rogue card and that's why the class sucks for more than a year.
I don't think that's the case at all. This thread began with someone posting a blurb from a guy over at liquidhearth about the dev team's thoughts about card nerfs coming up, and their feelings about Rogue were addressed specifically. Everyone wants diversity in the game, but when things like this come up it's hard not to discuss and consider what will likely happen. I agree that I'd rather see as few nerfs as possible, but if this information proves true, then we might as well play Devil's Advocate and discuss what the most likely candidates are. If it promotes better quality cards for the class and the game's long-term health improving going forward, then I think that's going to do more good than harm. Besides, it's not like these sort of large-scale card nerfs are going to be a regular occurrence.
In what Blade Flurry is a problem ? You guys have problems with maths.
Hero power (2 mana) + Deadly Poison (1 mana) + Blade Flurry (3 mana) is a 3 (and not 5 !!!!!) damage AoE for 5 mana and two cards ! Spell damage a problem ? So then nerf Consecration because it deals 3 damage to the board AND the face for only 4 mana and only one card with spell damage !!! Wow such OP, much broken, wow !
Let's delete the only decent AoE Rogue has, and while we're at it, the only decent removal (Sap). Some even talked about nerfing Edwin VanCleef ... there are at leat 30 cards to be nerfed before these ones. Why not completely remove the whole class altogether ? If Sap and Blade Flurry are so broken, why do most Rogue lists run only one copy of each ?
The only problematic Rogue card is Master of Disguise. There is no OP Rogue card and that's why the class sucks for more than a year.
I agree but take it easy. We're just speculating here. Sap is always 2 cards in the deck though (bolded the question).
Blade Flurry is just the burst of the combo deck and it shouldn't get nerfed before examining some other cards. I mean if they nerf BF, then there's no point in trying to make another deck like Oil because our combo burst damage is straight up gone. Not to mention what you said about it being the only reliable board clear for rogues (if only we had an activator like Equality for the Fan). As for Preparation, we'll see. I wouldn't mind a nerf (or to just make it decrease spells by 2), as long as they also decrease the mana cost in some other spell cards (ragerant: why FGS is Assassinate 5-mana, when Deadly Shot is 3?)
That's why I say that I don't like them being absolute with the "not buffing cards" mentality.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
In what Blade Flurry is a problem ? You guys have problems with maths.
Hero power (2 mana) + Deadly Poison (1 mana) + Blade Flurry (3 mana) is a 3 (and not 5 !!!!!) damage AoE for 5 mana and two cards ! Spell damage a problem ? So then nerf Consecration because it deals 3 damage to the board AND the face for only 4 mana and only one card with spell damage !!! Wow such OP, much broken, wow !
Let's delete the only decent AoE Rogue has, and while we're at it, the only decent removal (Sap). Some even talked about nerfing Edwin VanCleef ... there are at leat 30 cards to be nerfed before these ones. Why not completely remove the whole class altogether ? If Sap and Blade Flurry are so broken, why do most Rogue lists run only one copy of each ?
The only problematic Rogue card is Master of Disguise. There is no OP Rogue card and that's why the class sucks for more than a year.
Sure every oil and malyrogue run only one copy of blade furry and sap. Kappa.
On a more serious note, we are not game designers. We just see its effect in game and we don't know what they want to create, and yes maybe what they'd like to do is restricted by some rogue spells right now. You can't state how a card restrict design of other cards just based on your experience in game. I do agree that they are a lot of cards to nerf before rogue ones though.
PS : I just read that they wanted to nerf some rogue cards but that "innervate" was a part of druid soul and that they didn't intend to change it. What a yoke.
Just a showerthought: If Preparation would read "Your spells sost (1) less this turn", would it be be better, worse or a nice rework that limits its potential in early turns, reduce "burst" ability with expensive spells but still be powerful later on?
In conclusion I expect the following kappa inspired balance changes: - Backstab: 1 Mana, Deal 2 damage to and undamaged minion that has an uneven amount of health. - Blade Flurry: 4 Mana, Destroy your weapon and deal its damage to enemy minions. Combo: And their hero. - FoK: 3 Mana, Deal one damge to all enemy minions, draw a card. Combo: Your opponent draws a card. - Sap: 3 Mana, Return an enemy minion to your opponent's hand. Its Deathrattle triggers. - Prep: 0 Mana, Reduce the cost of the coin by three mana and concede.
Every class has strong core cards and none of rogue's basics are overpowered/stronger than other class's. Nerfing any of those cards would probably lock Valeera in some non-competitive Wild state or flush her out of the game altogether.
I expect Prep to be nerfed to the ground and Blade Flurry changed to only hit minions. In return, we'll get some nicer cards than usual and the Forbidden Rogue card, which will probably be "Use all your mana: add +1 attack to your weapon for each mana spent." That would be utterly busted with BF but just good without it.
Backstab and Deadly Poison will not be touched.
Rogue's power level will probably be worryingly low after these changes, but still hovering on viability thanks to the strength of new cards.
Well, with the 2 released cards I don't see them powerful enough to compensate for major nerfs. There was a chinese add on that recorded 8.5 million games and according to the graph below, Rogue not only needs help, but they're broken in a very negative way. I think the class will always be a bit on the weak scale since the pilot means more than any other class, but even a lot of legend players aren't running rogue (mryagut ditches rogue to grind to #1). When some cards leave the meta (specifically Belcher) it will help, but it benefits other classes more (Hunter, Shaman).
Well see how things play out, but they can't nerf this class and not put out cards that appear to be overpowered. Rogue is behind with the exception of the highest level of competition, and I don't just mean the pro scene but the top players in the game.
Am I missing something? Why are people saying Master of Disguise needs nerfed? I haven't seen it played in literally years. Why nerf a card that doesn't see play?
Am I missing something? Why are people saying Master of Disguise needs nerfed? I haven't seen it played in literally years. Why nerf a card that doesn't see play?
I asked about this earlier and apparently one of the designers sited this card as why Animated Armor wasn't neutral. They worry it may break minions with strong passive affects in the future.
Am I missing something? Why are people saying Master of Disguise needs nerfed? I haven't seen it played in literally years. Why nerf a card that doesn't see play?
It limits design space, keeping blizzard from printing a bunch of other cool cards for rogue or even just neutrals. Animated armor, for example was actually supposed to be a neutral, but it was too broken in rogue cuz of master of disguise, so they made it a mage minion.
Am I missing something? Why are people saying Master of Disguise needs nerfed? I haven't seen it played in literally years. Why nerf a card that doesn't see play?
I asked about this earlier and apparently one of the designers sited this card as why Animated Armor wasn't neutral. They worry it may break minions with strong passive affects in the future.
Makes sense... in that case, she should be reworked into something people actually use but doesn't limit design space.
Weird. I have always felt the rogue cards have been utter shit since forever. Part of why the class has been suffering.... Well if blizz disagree's and DOES nerf rogue cards, rogues are prooobably going to go from mediocre tier to shit tier.
Rogue has all these allegedly broken basic/classic cards, yet rogue is trash tier. If these cards are so OP, why aren't they being abused to win games?
If we're talking about Classic too, not just basic, then *phew*. Kidnapper's finally getting nerfed everyone! He's just too powerful, I can't handle him, I have bad dreams and nightmares, it was dark and I was alone, no apparently not, no, don't do it, not me, have mercy you foul animal, he didn't, not my pooor murlocs nooo, first Hungry Crab now this, I just cry, this is my breaking point, not waiting till he plays Magma Rager + Shadowflame (man I'll be glad when Rager gets nerfed).
Oh, we're talking about the card? Wellll it sucks, needs a buff if anything
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm just another one of those. You know, those who do things. Things that need to be done by those that do these things in order to do those things that don't do these things themselves. Has the word 'things' lost meaning to you already?
Rogues are hanging by a thread as playable in the spell/combo niche. I would agree a few cards MAY be nerfable, such as blade fury, but I would love to see a few more cards to help the class as a whole before that happens. My down and dirty analysis of rogue comes down to this:
There is so much emphasis and weapons, it's the freakin' hero power for goodness sake. Yet there is very little to help with survivability. There are tempo slowing cards like sap, but that only stalls. Stalling is great for a combo type game but not so great for control. You still have to deal with the threat later. So lets say armor is out for rogues, makes no sense. Healing does, rogues use potions and poisons as well as abilities like recuperate. So lets add some ways of healing for the class. Also subtlety is a big part of a thief class, so some cards that alter the state of battle in your favor could be neat. My first thought would be secrets but that would be an entire design overhaul. Maybe a weird sort of secret alternative, like a collection of minions that are unidentifiable while stealth-ed but have effects. Or cards that do something about what has been done the previous turn. Like "Shadow Clone, All damage done to you since the end of your turn is healed." I'm not sure exactly what it needs, but rogues need something to make them more than a one trick wombo/combo pony.
Ugh, in what universe does Rogue need a nerf? Why can't they get Mysterious Challenger or Muster for Battle? How about 2 mana secrets? it fits the archetype. And please FtLoG stop throwing around the term 'design space' as if you have ever designed a game in your entire life.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
In what Blade Flurry is a problem ? You guys have problems with maths.
Hero power (2 mana) + Deadly Poison (1 mana) + Blade Flurry (3 mana) is a 3 (and not 5 !!!!!) damage AoE for 5 mana and two cards ! Spell damage a problem ? So then nerf Consecration because it deals 3 damage to the board AND the face for only 4 mana and only one card with spell damage !!! Wow such OP, much broken, wow !
Let's delete the only decent AoE Rogue has, and while we're at it, the only decent removal (Sap). Some even talked about nerfing Edwin VanCleef ... there are at leat 30 cards to be nerfed before these ones. Why not completely remove the whole class altogether ?
If Sap and Blade Flurry are so broken, why do most Rogue lists run only one copy of each ?
The only problematic Rogue card is Master of Disguise. There is no OP Rogue card and that's why the class sucks for more than a year.
I don't think that's the case at all. This thread began with someone posting a blurb from a guy over at liquidhearth about the dev team's thoughts about card nerfs coming up, and their feelings about Rogue were addressed specifically. Everyone wants diversity in the game, but when things like this come up it's hard not to discuss and consider what will likely happen. I agree that I'd rather see as few nerfs as possible, but if this information proves true, then we might as well play Devil's Advocate and discuss what the most likely candidates are. If it promotes better quality cards for the class and the game's long-term health improving going forward, then I think that's going to do more good than harm. Besides, it's not like these sort of large-scale card nerfs are going to be a regular occurrence.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
Just a showerthought: If Preparation would read "Your spells sost (1) less this turn", would it be be better, worse or a nice rework that limits its potential in early turns, reduce "burst" ability with expensive spells but still be powerful later on?
- senti
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
Every class has strong core cards and none of rogue's basics are overpowered/stronger than other class's. Nerfing any of those cards would probably lock Valeera in some non-competitive Wild state or flush her out of the game altogether.
I expect Prep to be nerfed to the ground and Blade Flurry changed to only hit minions. In return, we'll get some nicer cards than usual and the Forbidden Rogue card, which will probably be "Use all your mana: add +1 attack to your weapon for each mana spent." That would be utterly busted with BF but just good without it.
Backstab and Deadly Poison will not be touched.
Rogue's power level will probably be worryingly low after these changes, but still hovering on viability thanks to the strength of new cards.
Well, with the 2 released cards I don't see them powerful enough to compensate for major nerfs. There was a chinese add on that recorded 8.5 million games and according to the graph below, Rogue not only needs help, but they're broken in a very negative way. I think the class will always be a bit on the weak scale since the pilot means more than any other class, but even a lot of legend players aren't running rogue (mryagut ditches rogue to grind to #1). When some cards leave the meta (specifically Belcher) it will help, but it benefits other classes more (Hunter, Shaman).
Well see how things play out, but they can't nerf this class and not put out cards that appear to be overpowered. Rogue is behind with the exception of the highest level of competition, and I don't just mean the pro scene but the top players in the game.
Am I missing something? Why are people saying Master of Disguise needs nerfed? I haven't seen it played in literally years. Why nerf a card that doesn't see play?
Because it limits future design space
Weird. I have always felt the rogue cards have been utter shit since forever. Part of why the class has been suffering.... Well if blizz disagree's and DOES nerf rogue cards, rogues are prooobably going to go from mediocre tier to shit tier.
Rogue has all these allegedly broken basic/classic cards, yet rogue is trash tier. If these cards are so OP, why aren't they being abused to win games?
Welll... just my two cents now...
If we're talking about Classic too, not just basic, then *phew*. Kidnapper's finally getting nerfed everyone! He's just too powerful, I can't handle him, I have bad dreams and nightmares, it was dark and I was alone, no apparently not, no, don't do it, not me, have mercy you foul animal, he didn't, not my pooor murlocs nooo, first Hungry Crab now this, I just cry, this is my breaking point, not waiting till he plays Magma Rager + Shadowflame (man I'll be glad when Rager gets nerfed).
Oh, we're talking about the card? Wellll it sucks, needs a buff if anything
I'm just another one of those. You know, those who do things. Things that need to be done by those that do these things in order to do those things that don't do these things themselves. Has the word 'things' lost meaning to you already?
[Game] Name another card that has the same...
blade fury should be nerfed so rogues can start getting better weapons