I think it's pretty appropriately costed now so having it at 4 seems like overkill. Might make it OP considering how much Rogue really can get mileage out of that 4 durability with weapon buffs. ;)
I've racked my brain on Basic cards that might be too good, and honestly I think Backstab is going to get nerfed. Right now everyone evaluates things like it in the context of the game we have now, where you normally have to use it to try and 2-for-1 something; in a game without all the sticky minions each and every tool we get that buys tempo for almost no cost is going to be big.
Sap also seems plausible. It's hard to imagine it'll be a lot of cards since they said it would be 10-12 cards getting nerfed I believe, and we already have a bunch of Druid cards and some Nuetrals heavily implied as being on the chopping block (AoL, Keeper, Combo, Leper Gnome, Knife Juggler, Owl brings it up to 7 cards already). Nerfs suck but I think people underestimate exactly how well off Rogue looked with Standard coming up.
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I don't think they can nerf Backstab. It's one of if not the only real early Combo enabler. Any chnage making it less playable would also nerf all those cards with Combo.
But they're also the only things keeping Rogue viable at the moment.
Part of the problem with Rogue is that it's a class that needs to tank face damage to clear the board, yet it's the only class in the game other than Hunter that has no healing option. So because a control or midrange Rogue is not viable, every Rogue is forced to rely on sometimes unreliable sudden burst to kill the opponents. Not because that's all Rogue can do...but because that's the niche Rogue is forced into by virtue of its hero power and lack of sustain.
I can certainly understand why people would think Backstab is not getting nerfed, but what makes me think that it's on the chopping block is because of Blizzard's wording in specifying that Basic cards were problematic. And not problematic because of design space issues, problematic because they were just very strong cards in Standard. Design space is only one of the reasons you'd consider nerfs or changes so it doesn't really make sense to rule out changes for that reason alone.
Of all the Basic cards I can think of, 4 consistently see play; Backstab, Sap, Deadly Poison, and Fan of Knives. Of all of those cards only one is a staple in virtually any Rogue deck I've ever seen (Raptor, Oil, Maly, Miracle, Control, Tempo, Mech, Aggro... So many lists), which is Backstab. Bear in mind while people focus on Combo's amazing strength to flat out win games, the consideration for their nerf alongside AoL and Keeper was that they're being used and abused in virtually every Druid list.
Thw way I see it is this; in the current meta, the decks Rogue does exceptionally well against are board-based decks that can't sustain tempo long enough to really keep up with Rogue's pressure. Midrange Paladin, Zoo, and Midrange Hunter are either a 50/50 or better for the rogue because it has so many ways to get ahead and stay ahead (Tirion and Highmane are the reason Sap is so good, it doesn't matter that they didn't die, you just gained 14 and 10 mana of tempo respectively while essentially SKIPPING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN). Now take out sticky minions that make board clears more effective and bump up the impact of something like Backstab/SI:7.
I certainly will not be sad if Backstab/Sap go untouched (big tempo plays are exactly why I love rogue, nothing is more satisfying than sapping a big target and telling your opponent to try again), but I can see why they'd be considering making them worse. I'm somewhat convinced it'll look like the Toxin card that does two damage.
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I agree on Sap, IF they were really talking about Basic cards and didn't mean Basic/Classic ones instead. But there is no way you can nerf Backstab even more without making it useless.
I'd be fine with nerfs to some Basic cards if Rogue got some insanely good cards to compensate, but I don't expect that. If Rogue gets hit hard, I might just quit, since they've been my favorite class since before I started playing and I've been extremely frustrated by the lack of good cards since classic.
I am very, very, very, very, very, very confident that Backstab is not getting nerfed.
Sap falls into the same problem as BGH: it discourages playing cards and makes high-cost creatures worse than they already are, which is why I believe it'll get nerfed. And Preparation just flat-out breaks the game.
It draws you 4 cards but you burn an extra card in the process. So basically its like drawing 3 cards for 4 mana. Compared to arcane intellect this sounds reasonable. Compared to nourish its reasonable since that card has a choose-one effect.
Also you run the risk of top-decking Prep when you dont have a spell in hand, or getting it in your opening hand when you'd rather have an early game threat.
@tommymahar it's not Prep + Sprint that's OP, but Prep + Gadgetzan/combos with Malygos.
@xsarq the reason Sap is good in HS is because HS is more of a tempo-oriented game than Magic. Removal and board clear in HS is appallingly bad compared to MtG, so if you lose the board or get behind on tempo, you often lose the game.
I can certainly understand why people would think Backstab is not getting nerfed, but what makes me think that it's on the chopping block is because of Blizzard's wording in specifying that Basic cards were problematic. And not problematic because of design space issues, problematic because they were just very strong cards in Standard. Design space is only one of the reasons you'd consider nerfs or changes so it doesn't really make sense to rule out changes for that reason alone.
They also said that they don't want to change the core of the classes so much and some basic/classic cards are perfect for that. In fact I would suggest them to rotate some cards out of these sets, because cards from certain expansions are much better for the core of the class.
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@Kakimori, Deadly is very common in lists I agree. But if you look at lists like Raptor it really hasn't stuck around whereas Backstab has. Evis and SI:7 are certainty staple, but once again all that was mentioned was Basic cards specifically. Considering how literal Blizzard tries to be on wording I won't assume Classic is outside the realm of the statement they gave players at the summit they had prior to Old Gods being announced.
@Giogioksk, I totally understand other classes have extremely strong Basic cards as well that give the class part of its identity and that it should be kept intact. All I'm restating is their reasoning and trying to think what Basic cards are actually strong enough to warrant that. Backstab is my personal prediction, like I said I'll be pleased as punch if it doesn't get changed. In my book it is absolutely the strongest card in our Basic set.
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The problem with nerfing Backstab is it causes even more issues with one of our biggest weaknesses, Divine Shield. Look at a Shielded Minibot interaction if you have no way to deal with it other than face tanking. They play it, you hit it to pop the shield, they hit you, you kill it...(if you can buff the weapon). That's 6 damage cost to kill a 2 costed minion. Yes, that card is getting phased out but Divine Shield is not.
If they do target Preparation and Backstab hopefully its just a reduces the power instead of increasing the cost to 1. Decreasing the ability wouldn't be as bad. A reduction in Prep really only affects Sprint. Changing rogues 0 cost spells would break the class and not in a good way. That in turn makes SI:7 Agent, Edwin VanCleef, Cold Blood, and Eviscerate less playable, and would essentially gut the class. I may be a exaggerating a bit but I don't think so. A nerf to our combo enablers is a nerf to all the combo cards, and I hope Blizzard understands that.
If they nerf Blade Flurry then they should make it something like this, 1 mana: destroy your weapon and deal it's damage to all enemy minions.
That way it doesn't hit face anymore but at least it cost 1 mana, so it's still a decent card.
While they're at it, why don't they go ahead and make Assassinate 4 mana and Kidnapper 5 mana, since those are the correct mana costs for those cards?
You guyz think that Assassin's Blade at 4 mana would be OP?
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I don't think they can nerf Backstab. It's one of if not the only real early Combo enabler. Any chnage making it less playable would also nerf all those cards with Combo.
- senti
They can't nerf Prep. Without strong 0 mana spells they would have to remove Combo from the game. Prep is essential.
Blade Flurry, of course, is super OP. That being said, to make Blade Flurry work you need to play bad cards like Deadly Poison and Oil.
I'm expecting a nerf to Azure Drake, which will hurt Rogue more than any other class.
Backstab is absolutely not getting nerfed. It's a simple but useful card that doesn't limit design space in any meaningful way.
Preparation, Sap, and Blade Flurry are candidates.
But they're also the only things keeping Rogue viable at the moment.
Part of the problem with Rogue is that it's a class that needs to tank face damage to clear the board, yet it's the only class in the game other than Hunter that has no healing option. So because a control or midrange Rogue is not viable, every Rogue is forced to rely on sometimes unreliable sudden burst to kill the opponents. Not because that's all Rogue can do...but because that's the niche Rogue is forced into by virtue of its hero power and lack of sustain.
I really hope we get some damage mitigation with the new expansion.
Maybe Kno's card is something like that?
- senti
I can certainly understand why people would think Backstab is not getting nerfed, but what makes me think that it's on the chopping block is because of Blizzard's wording in specifying that Basic cards were problematic. And not problematic because of design space issues, problematic because they were just very strong cards in Standard. Design space is only one of the reasons you'd consider nerfs or changes so it doesn't really make sense to rule out changes for that reason alone.
Of all the Basic cards I can think of, 4 consistently see play; Backstab, Sap, Deadly Poison, and Fan of Knives. Of all of those cards only one is a staple in virtually any Rogue deck I've ever seen (Raptor, Oil, Maly, Miracle, Control, Tempo, Mech, Aggro... So many lists), which is Backstab. Bear in mind while people focus on Combo's amazing strength to flat out win games, the consideration for their nerf alongside AoL and Keeper was that they're being used and abused in virtually every Druid list.
Thw way I see it is this; in the current meta, the decks Rogue does exceptionally well against are board-based decks that can't sustain tempo long enough to really keep up with Rogue's pressure. Midrange Paladin, Zoo, and Midrange Hunter are either a 50/50 or better for the rogue because it has so many ways to get ahead and stay ahead (Tirion and Highmane are the reason Sap is so good, it doesn't matter that they didn't die, you just gained 14 and 10 mana of tempo respectively while essentially SKIPPING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN). Now take out sticky minions that make board clears more effective and bump up the impact of something like Backstab/SI:7.
I certainly will not be sad if Backstab/Sap go untouched (big tempo plays are exactly why I love rogue, nothing is more satisfying than sapping a big target and telling your opponent to try again), but I can see why they'd be considering making them worse. I'm somewhat convinced it'll look like the Toxin card that does two damage.
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I agree on Sap, IF they were really talking about Basic cards and didn't mean Basic/Classic ones instead. But there is no way you can nerf Backstab even more without making it useless.
- senti
Why would you want to nerf Sap though. In Magic the Gathering this card cost only 1 mana and it's considered very good but way off from broken.
I'd be fine with nerfs to some Basic cards if Rogue got some insanely good cards to compensate, but I don't expect that. If Rogue gets hit hard, I might just quit, since they've been my favorite class since before I started playing and I've been extremely frustrated by the lack of good cards since classic.
Are you kidding? Deadly Poison is equally a staple with Backstab. So is Eviscerate. So is SI:7 Agent.
But that doesn't mean Backstab is overpowered or even close to problematic in Standard.
You might as well nerf Frostbolt or Fiery War Axe.
I am very, very, very, very, very, very confident that Backstab is not getting nerfed.
Sap falls into the same problem as BGH: it discourages playing cards and makes high-cost creatures worse than they already are, which is why I believe it'll get nerfed. And Preparation just flat-out breaks the game.
Prep + Sprint is definitely not OP.
It draws you 4 cards but you burn an extra card in the process. So basically its like drawing 3 cards for 4 mana. Compared to arcane intellect this sounds reasonable. Compared to nourish its reasonable since that card has a choose-one effect.
Also you run the risk of top-decking Prep when you dont have a spell in hand, or getting it in your opening hand when you'd rather have an early game threat.
Blizzard leave Preparation alone!!
@tommymahar it's not Prep + Sprint that's OP, but Prep + Gadgetzan/combos with Malygos.
@xsarq the reason Sap is good in HS is because HS is more of a tempo-oriented game than Magic. Removal and board clear in HS is appallingly bad compared to MtG, so if you lose the board or get behind on tempo, you often lose the game.
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@Kakimori, Deadly is very common in lists I agree. But if you look at lists like Raptor it really hasn't stuck around whereas Backstab has. Evis and SI:7 are certainty staple, but once again all that was mentioned was Basic cards specifically. Considering how literal Blizzard tries to be on wording I won't assume Classic is outside the realm of the statement they gave players at the summit they had prior to Old Gods being announced.
@Giogioksk, I totally understand other classes have extremely strong Basic cards as well that give the class part of its identity and that it should be kept intact. All I'm restating is their reasoning and trying to think what Basic cards are actually strong enough to warrant that. Backstab is my personal prediction, like I said I'll be pleased as punch if it doesn't get changed. In my book it is absolutely the strongest card in our Basic set.
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Oh yes pls Blizzard, nerf this class. Almost as OP as druid right now.
The problem with nerfing Backstab is it causes even more issues with one of our biggest weaknesses, Divine Shield. Look at a Shielded Minibot interaction if you have no way to deal with it other than face tanking. They play it, you hit it to pop the shield, they hit you, you kill it...(if you can buff the weapon). That's 6 damage cost to kill a 2 costed minion. Yes, that card is getting phased out but Divine Shield is not.
If they do target Preparation and Backstab hopefully its just a reduces the power instead of increasing the cost to 1. Decreasing the ability wouldn't be as bad. A reduction in Prep really only affects Sprint. Changing rogues 0 cost spells would break the class and not in a good way. That in turn makes SI:7 Agent, Edwin VanCleef, Cold Blood, and Eviscerate less playable, and would essentially gut the class. I may be a exaggerating a bit but I don't think so. A nerf to our combo enablers is a nerf to all the combo cards, and I hope Blizzard understands that.