I'm with you. But even Tinker's Sharpsword Oil, which only gave +3 attack led to huge bursts with Blade Flurry. If this is really Blizzards concern, please for gods sake they should nerf Blade Flurry that it only damages minions and give us useful weapon buffs. We could always get something similar to Blade Flurry in later expansions (like alpha's Envenom). With the rotation Blizzard can balance such things and weapon buffs.
Im not into weapons for Rogue as it renders it's hero power useless, unsless it somehow works with the hero power, i.e. Battlecry: if you already have a weapon eqipped give it +x/+x instead of replacing it with this weapn or something like this.
I do not agree. Tinker's Sharpsword Oil is a boring card and that's not what Rogue players want. With the few examples I gave, none was broken with Blade Flurry. Blizzard only gave completely boring and no-brain buffs for weapons. We don't want to have a 16/2 dagger to OTK with Blade Flurry. We want interactive and interesting buffs that allow Rogue players to deal with the board with their weapon without dying. Even with TGT where lots of things were about heroes and hero powers, Blizzard release NO cards that had any synergy with Rogue hero power. But they released Poisoned Blade, which, appart from being completely useless, is boring af. +1 atk when you HP ? Why not something actually interesting/useful, like EVERY OTHER WEAPON CLASS got since beta ?
I might even start playing rogue after WooG if it looks fun enough.
For nerfs/buffs/balances or whatever, I kinda wanna see Master of Disguise fit its name, and appear as a random 4 mana rogue or neutral minion (maybe until attacked, maybe for a turn) just so it isn't limiting the capability of permastealth on any minion.
For Blade Flurry, I feel like maybe something along the lines of hits 2 (or maybe 3) random enemies (minions and hero, so a minion and hero or 2 minions)
I don't know why people are talking about classic cards. Unless I'm wrong, basic does not mean classic. We're talking about deadly poison, sap, fan of knives, even sprint is insane when used with prep.
Hm do not confuse everything please. Sprint is a really bad card let's be honest. I'd take lay on hands over sprint every day. Preparation is too good maybe tho, and I definitely agree that it might restrict cards design for rogue.
With that being said some cards they made have no excuses for how bad they are (Pit snake comes into my mind). I would even say that in terms of minions, rogue is a really poor class, so nothing really stops them to figure out a way to make good minions without making rogue too strong. But that last part is merely my opinion, since i'm not a card designer and i'm bad at it i'll reckon that. I'd have love to get a discover minion for rogue tho!
As mentionner above, perhaps blade furry is too strong. I mean if rogue were to get a good weapon, blade furry in its current state would be a carnage. However, I don't really understand why brode thinks so much when it comes to rogue and make some clearly overpowered cards for other classes (Challenger). But after all I guess that's why they introduce standard, to make games more fair so I would agree on a nerf of blade furry or Preparation if it were for the sake of rogue and possibly new archetypes.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
Oops, I did mistake this in my original post, but anyways: is Deadly Poison and Sap so powerful compared to other classes basics? Or maybe they see play because rogue has only few good cards in past expansions. They are good, but for example, Warrior has Fiery War Axe and Execute, which see as much play as those two. Mages have even more useful basics: Fireball, Polymorph, Arcane Intellect, Arcane Missiles. I don't see why rogue ones are better in Blizzard's opinion and even why they want to nerf them.
Rogue turn 2 + coin or turn 3 usage, hero power + poison. Warrior Axe Turn 1 + coin or turn 2 usage. Those tempo warrior get, not to mention the following turn warrior can still hero power.
Many time this card lead into a massive debate, i just like to highlight that this card, even though is powerful, are definitely not broken or OP. Think about it, when rogue want to Flurry, it require A weapon (2mana hero power) + a spell bonus minion(2mana Thalnos or 5mana Azure drake) or weapon buff (1mana deadly poison) + Preparation (if need be) + Blade Flurry itself (2mana). That is at least 2-4 card + weapon, or without Preparation 5-9mana cost for this card to be effective, and it also some time require you to play this few card over a few turn, and than there is draw back of hero power can't be use many of a time, when other hero could ping/heal/draw/gain tempo via token, not to mention the weapon can be destory by cheap minion Acidic Swamp Ooze.
imho there is similar idea between the 2, sending minion back to owner hand, Where trap can be play around (or need to play around with the guessing game) but the hunter gain tempo after, can be use both early or late game to generate advantange if used right, also if the guessing game is wrong from the opponent, huge tempo is gained from it even before it trigger. Where as Sap is voluntary spell that usually only see play late game, otherwise a dead card in hand early game. Sap OP? i dunno really.
Preparation one of the very few card that define rogue, may have limit future design of card, but imho is not OP.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
Oops, I did mistake this in my original post, but anyways: is Deadly Poison and Sap so powerful compared to other classes basics? Or maybe they see play because rogue has only few good cards in past expansions. They are good, but for example, Warrior has Fiery War Axe and Execute, which see as much play as those two. Mages have even more useful basics: Fireball, Polymorph, Arcane Intellect, Arcane Missiles. I don't see why rogue ones are better in Blizzard's opinion and even why they want to nerf them.
Just like Agithore said in another post in this thread "It's their excuse for the fact that Rogue has only gotten 2 playable cards in the past 2 years.".
What I really hate about this is that there is no acknoledgement that they could buff some of the literally unplayable cards ....like Kidknapper for example. Why not take the oppurtunity to reduce it from 6 to 5 mana or something?
- I can't beleive people support blizzards 'no balance policy' its effing dumb, it's a digital card game.
Rogue's cards are balanced in my opinion. They have a lot of very efficient cards but not really anything that's outright powerful. They rely HEAVILY on synergies to win.
Not to mention how trash almost all of their cards have been since Classic...
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Its fangs are in your flesh before its hiss leaves your ears.
Sounds fair, about as fair as Mage without Frostbolt, Fireball, Flamestrike and Polymorph. yeeaahh i don't know about that, blizzard has the potential to f*ck up big time with this, i am not optimistic at all -.-
I agree with a change to Master of Disguise though, this card is very dangerous
2 mana board clear with face damage is NOT balanced. Even with hero power + poison, it's still way less cost than Flamestrike and can do more damager.
Playing against classes that can go off and destroy you, your minions and your dog in one turn while drawing half their deck is pretty frustrating. The only think worse is shield slam. 1 mana, kill any minion is derp
The cards that are being mentioned are the current core of Rogue's identity as a class. If they do the Warsong shuffle on those cards, what the fuck will Rogue be left with? Defias Ringleader? Headcrack? Spellpower Rogue back in the meta?!?! PogChamp
Rogue does not need ridiculous weapon buffs. Rogue needs useful weapons buff. Something like "Give your weapon +1/+1 and Spell Power +1", something like "When you attack a minion with your weapon, restore to your hero as much health as damage dealt", something like "Give your weapon Deathrattle : equip a random weapon".
Blade Flurry is not a problem, it's not even played in Tempo Rogue and played as a one-of in Miracle Rogue. We don't want Rogue to be just "buff your weapon and kill the ennemy", we want fun and original mechanics like every other class do.
Sap is not a problem neither. It's a good Tempo tool but far from being strong as Execute, Entomb or Shield Slam.
Blizzard just finds terrible excuses for their crappy cards they gave Rogue since the game was out.
I agree completely. Rogue should be a weapon class, but the weapons it gets are crap.Assassin's Blade is too late in the game to do too much minion damage without Deadly Poison, so it becomes a 6 mana combo. The only nerf that rogue should get is Blade Flurry but not in its text. The nerf should be making the damage unaffected by spell damage bonus. I know that this is a two card combo, but Dagger Mastery, Deadly Poison, swing with weapon, followed by Blade Flurry with a spell damage minion on the board for a 5 mana Flamestrike that also hits face. Yes, having a spell damage minion does complicate, but as most other rogue spells do crap damage without the boost, one would think that spell damage would be common enough. (I have not been smashed by Malygos Rogue, but I honestly don't think it should be able to work)
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Wants to play Captain Cookie Druid because why not?
2 mana board clear with face damage is NOT balanced. Even with hero power + poison, it's still way less cost than Flamestrike and can do more damager.
Playing against classes that can go off and destroy you, your minions and your dog in one turn while drawing half their deck is pretty frustrating. The only think worse is shield slam. 1 mana, kill any minion is derp
Hero power + poison + flurry basicly is 5 mana consecration + spell damage with additional 3 damage to other stuff, but it requires 2 cards unlike Flamestrike that needs 1, so you can't compare to it. It's not imbalanced, it's good, but not imbalanced.
Edwin VanCleef: Im surprised nobody mentioned him, he is the most likely to get a nerf IMO. They want to nerf BGH, but to do so, they also NEED to nerf the giants. So that leaves Edwin as the only potential giant in the very early game who definitely needs a nerf if there is no BGH to answer him.
BTW I wouldnt mind if Blizz could just leave BGH, giants and Edwin in their current form, but sadly its not very likely.
I completely agree with you on everything except Edwin. I'm guessing that since he is a legendary, Blizzard won't see a reason to nerf him. I personally love the card, and I hope it doesn't change. It's really the only huge minion that fits in a current Rogue deck.
I also wouldn't mind Blizzard keeping giants as they are. I hope BGH gets nerfed just enough to prevent it from being an auto-include in every control deck, though.
Please don't make rogue into just another class where you just plop down minions on curve with no real thought into the next plays. Its like the casters said about Rogue in the NA Winter's Champs; Rogue players are fanatical about their class because its really a tough class to master. I think if they try to put the play style in line with other classes they'll lose some of the creativity in the game. Right now we just have too many unimaginative Archetypes in the game.
My thoughts:
I'm expecting a nerf:
Master of Disguise; I don't think anyone really cares if they gut the card. It doesn't see play and the battlecry can be op.
A look at the Basic Card targets:
Sap I would put money that is this is a target. Since Blizzard has been vocal about nerfing silence effects, expect this to change. I'm kind of okay with it.
Fan of Knives I think this one is balanced, but I could see it being targeted
Backstab Possibly another target; the problem is any mana change and it significantly weakens our combo theme.
Deadly Poison Unless we see changes to Rockbiter, I don't see this being changed. At least I hope not. IMO, this is the core card of the class.l
Sprint I can see a card draw reduction. I don't think its needed but if Blizzard thinks our card draw is too good then it may be modified in some way
Blade Flurry Looks like a target, but Blizzard needs to be careful because this is really our only way to beat flood decks. Since some combos are close to OTK's, I could see it not doing face damage.
Preparation Maybe, I hope not. Again, since its a combo enabler I can only see them reducing the discount.
Hopefully the impending changes won't change the spirit of the class. IMO, very few decks in the game have any sort of skill cap, lets not remove all the ones that do. Patron, Oil, MalyRogue, and Freeze Mage all may be dead in standard. Hopefully the game doesn't devolve into Dire Wolf Alpha positioning being the pinnacle of the game. I understand OTK combos aren't great for the game, but I think combos in general are good for the game.
as I metnioned before I aslo believe Sap is the target, becaus of the pseudo-Silence it gives. Please let them not touch Backstab or Preparation. I'm ok reducing card draw with Sprint if they reduce its mana cost at the same time.
Master of Disguise is one of those cards I like to make a ridiculous gimmick Rogue deck with, then remember how slow it is and I just lose. It's clear that the perma-stealth limits design space of Rogue and neutral cards, regardless of the card's actual playability. They can never give Rogue a minion that gives the hero immunity, as great as that would be with the way the class tends to run its face into minions, for example.
It feels pretty bad to play against Sap. It's worse than getting a taunt silenced in a lot of cases. Recently I sapped a Kel'Thuzad two turns in a row, which means I basically had my opponent skip two consecutive turns. And he never played KT again for the rest of the game because he would have just died (which eventually happened anyway). So I could see that getting changed.
When Unearthed Raptor came out, everyone was so happy because Rogue finally had another archetype.
Now people are all for nerfs that will completely kill the combo Rogue archetype. And when I say kill, I mean burn to the ground and salt it so nothing ever grows again.
I thought people were all for diversity but apparently not.
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Its fangs are in your flesh before its hiss leaves your ears.
Blizzard only gave completely boring and no-brain buffs for weapons. We don't want to have a 16/2 dagger to OTK with Blade Flurry. We want interactive and interesting buffs that allow Rogue players to deal with the board with their weapon without dying. Even with TGT where lots of things were about heroes and hero powers, Blizzard release NO cards that had any synergy with Rogue hero power. But they released Poisoned Blade, which, appart from being completely useless, is boring af. +1 atk when you HP ? Why not something actually interesting/useful, like EVERY OTHER WEAPON CLASS got since beta ?
It's not that I want them to nerf Blade Flurry, but I could understand.
We will probably get something this expansion regarding weapon buffs/weapons. Let's see if Blizzard learned..
- senti
I might even start playing rogue after WooG if it looks fun enough.
For nerfs/buffs/balances or whatever, I kinda wanna see Master of Disguise fit its name, and appear as a random 4 mana rogue or neutral minion (maybe until attacked, maybe for a turn) just so it isn't limiting the capability of permastealth on any minion.
For Blade Flurry, I feel like maybe something along the lines of hits 2 (or maybe 3) random enemies (minions and hero, so a minion and hero or 2 minions)
Diehard druid player ^~^
Check out my theorycrafted Blistering Rot
i think there is really room for argument for rogue basic/classic card.
Deadly Poison compare to Fiery War Axe
Rogue turn 2 + coin or turn 3 usage, hero power + poison. Warrior Axe Turn 1 + coin or turn 2 usage. Those tempo warrior get, not to mention the following turn warrior can still hero power.
Blade Flurry compare to any other AOE in game
Many time this card lead into a massive debate, i just like to highlight that this card, even though is powerful, are definitely not broken or OP. Think about it, when rogue want to Flurry, it require A weapon (2mana hero power) + a spell bonus minion(2mana Thalnos or 5mana Azure drake) or weapon buff (1mana deadly poison) + Preparation (if need be) + Blade Flurry itself (2mana). That is at least 2-4 card + weapon, or without Preparation 5-9mana cost for this card to be effective, and it also some time require you to play this few card over a few turn, and than there is draw back of hero power can't be use many of a time, when other hero could ping/heal/draw/gain tempo via token, not to mention the weapon can be destory by cheap minion Acidic Swamp Ooze.
Sap compare to Freezing Trap
imho there is similar idea between the 2, sending minion back to owner hand, Where trap can be play around (or need to play around with the guessing game) but the hunter gain tempo after, can be use both early or late game to generate advantange if used right, also if the guessing game is wrong from the opponent, huge tempo is gained from it even before it trigger. Where as Sap is voluntary spell that usually only see play late game, otherwise a dead card in hand early game. Sap OP? i dunno really.
Preparation one of the very few card that define rogue, may have limit future design of card, but imho is not OP.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
What I really hate about this is that there is no acknoledgement that they could buff some of the literally unplayable cards ....like Kidknapper for example. Why not take the oppurtunity to reduce it from 6 to 5 mana or something?
- I can't beleive people support blizzards 'no balance policy' its effing dumb, it's a digital card game.
Rogue's cards are balanced in my opinion. They have a lot of very efficient cards but not really anything that's outright powerful. They rely HEAVILY on synergies to win.
Not to mention how trash almost all of their cards have been since Classic...
Its fangs are in your flesh before its hiss leaves your ears.
Golden Heroes: Druid -> Rogue -> Shaman -> Hunter -> Warlock
Rogue without Sap, Preparation, Blade Flurry and Deadly Poison?
Sounds fair, about as fair as Mage without Frostbolt, Fireball, Flamestrike and Polymorph. yeeaahh i don't know about that, blizzard has the potential to f*ck up big time with this, i am not optimistic at all -.-
I agree with a change to Master of Disguise though, this card is very dangerous
2 mana board clear with face damage is NOT balanced. Even with hero power + poison, it's still way less cost than Flamestrike and can do more damager.
Playing against classes that can go off and destroy you, your minions and your dog in one turn while drawing half their deck is pretty frustrating. The only think worse is shield slam. 1 mana, kill any minion is derp
The cards that are being mentioned are the current core of Rogue's identity as a class. If they do the Warsong shuffle on those cards, what the fuck will Rogue be left with? Defias Ringleader? Headcrack? Spellpower Rogue back in the meta?!?! PogChamp
Removing face damage from Blade Flurry would probably be enough to balance it.
Wants to play Captain Cookie Druid because why not?
I completely agree with you on everything except Edwin. I'm guessing that since he is a legendary, Blizzard won't see a reason to nerf him. I personally love the card, and I hope it doesn't change. It's really the only huge minion that fits in a current Rogue deck.
I also wouldn't mind Blizzard keeping giants as they are. I hope BGH gets nerfed just enough to prevent it from being an auto-include in every control deck, though.
Ugh.
Please don't make rogue into just another class where you just plop down minions on curve with no real thought into the next plays. Its like the casters said about Rogue in the NA Winter's Champs; Rogue players are fanatical about their class because its really a tough class to master. I think if they try to put the play style in line with other classes they'll lose some of the creativity in the game. Right now we just have too many unimaginative Archetypes in the game.
My thoughts:
I'm expecting a nerf:
Master of Disguise; I don't think anyone really cares if they gut the card. It doesn't see play and the battlecry can be op.
A look at the Basic Card targets:
Cards I don't see getting changed: Sinister Strike, Shiv, Assassinate
Other cards that may be changed:
Hopefully the impending changes won't change the spirit of the class. IMO, very few decks in the game have any sort of skill cap, lets not remove all the ones that do. Patron, Oil, MalyRogue, and Freeze Mage all may be dead in standard. Hopefully the game doesn't devolve into Dire Wolf Alpha positioning being the pinnacle of the game. I understand OTK combos aren't great for the game, but I think combos in general are good for the game.
as I metnioned before I aslo believe Sap is the target, becaus of the pseudo-Silence it gives. Please let them not touch Backstab or Preparation. I'm ok reducing card draw with Sprint if they reduce its mana cost at the same time.
- senti
Master of Disguise is one of those cards I like to make a ridiculous gimmick Rogue deck with, then remember how slow it is and I just lose. It's clear that the perma-stealth limits design space of Rogue and neutral cards, regardless of the card's actual playability. They can never give Rogue a minion that gives the hero immunity, as great as that would be with the way the class tends to run its face into minions, for example.
It feels pretty bad to play against Sap. It's worse than getting a taunt silenced in a lot of cases. Recently I sapped a Kel'Thuzad two turns in a row, which means I basically had my opponent skip two consecutive turns. And he never played KT again for the rest of the game because he would have just died (which eventually happened anyway). So I could see that getting changed.
Here's what I find really sad and ironic:
When Unearthed Raptor came out, everyone was so happy because Rogue finally had another archetype.
Now people are all for nerfs that will completely kill the combo Rogue archetype. And when I say kill, I mean burn to the ground and salt it so nothing ever grows again.
I thought people were all for diversity but apparently not.
Its fangs are in your flesh before its hiss leaves your ears.
Golden Heroes: Druid -> Rogue -> Shaman -> Hunter -> Warlock