1.) backstab. It is NOT a spell without costs. It costs 1 cardslot. Which makes it hard to Trade 1vs1 with it. No other class would Play this card (unless miracle/malydecks) because it s only worth the cardloss if you can Clear a early minion with high value (like knifejuggler or secretkeeper) or to setup a combo. Otherwise it s a Plain tempoplay which gives you carddisatvantage in the Longterm. Especially if prep (for Sprint) gets nerfed.
2.) Sap. Other classes have stronger removals for about the Same cost. Which actually kill the minion. Yes. Ofc. Against deathrattleminions the sap Is stronger. But the other way around. Against minions with Strong battlecries it s way Weaker. Yes the other classes cheap big removals have conditions (execute, swd, shieldslam, poly, huntersmark, equality, keeper of uldaman etc.) but the other classes do Not put themselves in a carddisatvantage with their removals. Cause in constructed you usually can easily get those conditions, cause your deck Happens to have quite some synergie.
the only Cards that i See in rogue that Need nerfing Are: conseal, the minion that gives stealth And Blade Flurry. Mit because they Are so OP. They Are Fine or Bad in the current decks. I mean the higher Tier any rogue Deck has Been in the Last 3 months Is maybe Tier 3. obviously the class Is Not OP. So the Nerfs can only Be because current Cards may Limit designing New cards for rogue. and Not only for rogue. Designing New neutral minions means having in mind what every class Could Do with it. So you cannot make any neutral card that may Be abused by conseal (for example)
Shadowstep should Be nerfed/ removed aswell. Due to abusepotential with any Kind of battlecry (everybody knows about which legendary i m thinking).
Tldr: Stop thinking blizz Nerfs Cards that Are Strong. Rogue isn't strong, it a Not necessairy to nerf Cards of this class, simply cause they Are Strong. Cards of this class that Need Nerfs Are the Cards that have the Potential to Be abused hard.
I genuinely do not believe we're going to see a nerf to Prep. Like I'd be absolutely shocked and frustrated if Druid gets to keep their Ramp and Rogues lose theirs.
As far as Backstab goes... I honestly don't know of a different version that would be satisfactory. I'd lean towards the 2-damage Toxin as a potential change that could be made, but that genuinely seems broken in something like Malyrogue. It's more of a hunch than anything since they implied Rogue's Basic set in general was at a higher level than anyone else's and my experience is telling me that card has something to do with it. We shall see when they announce the nerfs, like I said it's only a hunch.
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I genuinely do not believe we're going to see a nerf to Prep. Like I'd be absolutely shocked and frustrated if Druid gets to keep their Ramp and Rogues lose theirs.
That's what I've been saying as well. Prep is balanced only when compared to Innervate. I'll be really frustrated, if they nerf Prep and leave Innervate as it is.
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'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
1.) backstab. It is NOT a spell without costs. It costs 1 cardslot. Which makes it hard to Trade 1vs1 with it. No other class would Play this card (unless miracle/malydecks) because it s only worth the cardloss if you can Clear a early minion with high value (like knifejuggler or secretkeeper) or to setup a combo. Otherwise it s a Plain tempoplay which gives you carddisatvantage in the Longterm. Especially if prep (for Sprint) gets nerfed.
2.) Sap. Other classes have stronger removals for about the Same cost. Which actually kill the minion. Yes. Ofc. Against deathrattleminions the sap Is stronger. But the other way around. Against minions with Strong battlecries it s way Weaker. Yes the other classes cheap big removals have conditions (execute, swd, shieldslam, poly, huntersmark, equality, keeper of uldaman etc.) but the other classes do Not put themselves in a carddisatvantage with their removals. Cause in constructed you usually can easily get those conditions, cause your deck Happens to have quite some synergie.
the only Cards that i See in rogue that Need nerfing Are: conseal, the minion that gives stealth And Blade Flurry. Mit because they Are so OP. They Are Fine or Bad in the current decks. I mean the higher Tier any rogue Deck has Been in the Last 3 months Is maybe Tier 3. obviously the class Is Not OP. So the Nerfs can only Be because current Cards may Limit designing New cards for rogue. and Not only for rogue. Designing New neutral minions means having in mind what every class Could Do with it. So you cannot make any neutral card that may Be abused by conseal (for example)
Shadowstep should Be nerfed/ removed aswell. Due to abusepotential with any Kind of battlecry (everybody knows about which legendary i m thinking).
Tldr: Stop thinking blizz Nerfs Cards that Are Strong. Rogue isn't strong, it a Not necessairy to nerf Cards of this class, simply cause they Are Strong. Cards of this class that Need Nerfs Are the Cards that have the Potential to Be abused hard.
1) Backstab comes at a cost where you do indeed need to allocate a deckslot to it, and while I disagree that no other classes would run it (Tempo Mage would be an arguable case) it's pretty irrelevant because Rogue is designed in such a way that it almost always wants to run it. Cards belonging to certain classes is the reason Anub is rarely ever seen, but would be an absurd card if you gave him to a class that can play that super long game. Alongside a ping hero power that lasts two turns, Backstab is an amazing tool for board control with or without a combo to follow it up.
2) Once again if you look at the class Sap is in, you're talking about a class that has the tools to absolutely punish the tempo loss they create. It's not always the case (Rogues without burst don't really have an incentive to deal with something twice), but Sap as a pseudo-removal is amazingly strong. Delaying your opponent's late game bomb by an extra turn can be huge. It's one of the reason slower decks generally can't keep up with them, since this game is so heavily predicated on tempo gains. Is it a problematic card? It certainly could be crazy in a meta that's much slower.
Like I said I've considered the Toxins being a canary in the coal mine for some changes. Shadowstep being increased to 1 mana sounds like it could very well happen since you can do things like Shadowstep C'thun (though how you survive that long as Rogue is yet to be determined), Master of Disguise is pretty much a given if they're ever going to give us neutral minions with strong persistent effects, and Blade Flurry is one of those cards that people call OP but I've never really bought that argument (so we spend 2 mana to hero power, play our cheapest weapon buff at 1 mana, and then play Blade Flurry for 2 mana; you have now created a clunkier version of most board clears that requires the single target portion of it to still be face tanked).
Nerving cards because they're strong is a very real possibility people will have to accept. Ancient of Lore and Keeper of the Grove are probably on the chopping block, Combo is probably on the chopping block... these are cards that aren't on their own particularly OP. The first two are actually just strong cards, but they're so absurdly good if they don't tone them down they will remain staples in every Druid deck. AoL and Keeper are not cards that are going to lead to abuse, but they are going to lead to very stagnant Druid decks.
Rogue is a very strong class, and they're absolutely going to be stronger in Standard with sticky minions going away. We'll see how the nerfs land to see if they retain enough of what would make them strong currently, but I think they'll be in an awesome spot.
I genuinely do not believe we're going to see a nerf to Prep. Like I'd be absolutely shocked and frustrated if Druid gets to keep their Ramp and Rogues lose theirs.
That's what I've been saying as well. Prep is balanced only when compared to Innervate. I'll be really frustrated, if they nerf Prep and leave Innervate as it is.
I won't claim that I'd quit the game, but I would need Blizzard to immediately provide Rogues with a card to point at and say "We could make this because we made a change to Prep" to not create a Twitter account just to ask Ben Brode why he hates Rogue players so much. Especially after explaining that adjustments to Druid Ramp took too much identity out of the class. Because Rogue players are generally awesome people that play the class because they love it, I'm sure they would adapt... but Prep is absolutely part of the Rogue identity. So part of it is because I legitimately think there isn't a reason to nerf it (quick Prep+Sprint math; you spend two cards and 4 mana for 4 cards, which means you essentially cycled and gained two cards, not what I'd call OP), and partially because I want to assume Blizzard doesn't actually hate Rogue players and their adjustments are going to be stuff we can at least somewhat swallow the justification for.
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I m impressed by your argumentation. I realy am. The only statement i disagree with Is the "rogue Is Strong" part. Problem Is, with this assumtion Stands And falls our two positions. Ofc it will heavily depend on New Card releases, if rogue becomes Strong in crafted i agree with every Point you made. At current State i think we can agree that rogue, maybe with Shaman, Is the weakest class atm. Which Is partially due to the meta. current Meta Is basically you re either very fast or realy slow. It s hard to match your techcards against both.
Absurd if they go through with it. Rogues use the same old cards because they can't replace it with something as good/good in certain situations/decks. Give Rogues more niche cards a la Beast related Druid cards so Rogues can evolve in other ways than Miracle/Oil. Unearthed Raptor is a prime example of a card that creates and serves a certain niche. Deathrattle rogue before LOE? Lol. If they wanna move away from Eviscerate, Backstab, SI: 7 etc etc, give Rogues cards that can replace them without being OP. It wouldn't be impossible, but nerfing is of course easier.
Master of Disguise should be changed though to only give stealth for one turn and to become a 4/5. I really hope they do that, because I have 2 golden ones :D Maybe Blade Flurry aswell when I think about it. But that's basically it IMO. Preparation could perhaps be made to cost 1 mana but give 4 mana discount on the next spell, that would be reasonable and only a small nerf.
1.) backstab. It is NOT a spell without costs. It costs 1 cardslot. Which makes it hard to Trade 1vs1 with it. No other class would Play this card (unless miracle/malydecks) because it s only worth the cardloss if you can Clear a early minion with high value (like knifejuggler or secretkeeper) or to setup a combo. Otherwise it s a Plain tempoplay which gives you carddisatvantage in the Longterm. Especially if prep (for Sprint) gets nerfed.
2.) Sap. Other classes have stronger removals for about the Same cost. Which actually kill the minion. Yes. Ofc. Against deathrattleminions the sap Is stronger. But the other way around. Against minions with Strong battlecries it s way Weaker. Yes the other classes cheap big removals have conditions (execute, swd, shieldslam, poly, huntersmark, equality, keeper of uldaman etc.) but the other classes do Not put themselves in a carddisatvantage with their removals. Cause in constructed you usually can easily get those conditions, cause your deck Happens to have quite some synergie.
the only Cards that i See in rogue that Need nerfing Are: conseal, the minion that gives stealth And Blade Flurry. Mit because they Are so OP. They Are Fine or Bad in the current decks. I mean the higher Tier any rogue Deck has Been in the Last 3 months Is maybe Tier 3. obviously the class Is Not OP. So the Nerfs can only Be because current Cards may Limit designing New cards for rogue. and Not only for rogue. Designing New neutral minions means having in mind what every class Could Do with it. So you cannot make any neutral card that may Be abused by conseal (for example)
Shadowstep should Be nerfed/ removed aswell. Due to abusepotential with any Kind of battlecry (everybody knows about which legendary i m thinking).
Tldr: Stop thinking blizz Nerfs Cards that Are Strong. Rogue isn't strong, it a Not necessairy to nerf Cards of this class, simply cause they Are Strong. Cards of this class that Need Nerfs Are the Cards that have the Potential to Be abused hard.
1) Backstab comes at a cost where you do indeed need to allocate a deckslot to it, and while I disagree that no other classes would run it (Tempo Mage would be an arguable case) it's pretty irrelevant because Rogue is designed in such a way that it almost always wants to run it. Cards belonging to certain classes is the reason Anub is rarely ever seen, but would be an absurd card if you gave him to a class that can play that super long game. Alongside a ping hero power that lasts two turns, Backstab is an amazing tool for board control with or without a combo to follow it up.
2) Once again if you look at the class Sap is in, you're talking about a class that has the tools to absolutely punish the tempo loss they create. It's not always the case (Rogues without burst don't really have an incentive to deal with something twice), but Sap as a pseudo-removal is amazingly strong. Delaying your opponent's late game bomb by an extra turn can be huge. It's one of the reason slower decks generally can't keep up with them, since this game is so heavily predicated on tempo gains. Is it a problematic card? It certainly could be crazy in a meta that's much slower.
Like I said I've considered the Toxins being a canary in the coal mine for some changes. Shadowstep being increased to 1 mana sounds like it could very well happen since you can do things like Shadowstep C'thun (though how you survive that long as Rogue is yet to be determined), Master of Disguise is pretty much a given if they're ever going to give us neutral minions with strong persistent effects, and Blade Flurry is one of those cards that people call OP but I've never really bought that argument (so we spend 2 mana to hero power, play our cheapest weapon buff at 1 mana, and then play Blade Flurry for 2 mana; you have now created a clunkier version of most board clears that requires the single target portion of it to still be face tanked).
Nerving cards because they're strong is a very real possibility people will have to accept. Ancient of Lore and Keeper of the Grove are probably on the chopping block, Combo is probably on the chopping block... these are cards that aren't on their own particularly OP. The first two are actually just strong cards, but they're so absurdly good if they don't tone them down they will remain staples in every Druid deck. AoL and Keeper are not cards that are going to lead to abuse, but they are going to lead to very stagnant Druid decks.
Rogue is a very strong class, and they're absolutely going to be stronger in Standard with sticky minions going away. We'll see how the nerfs land to see if they retain enough of what would make them strong currently, but I think they'll be in an awesome spot.
I genuinely do not believe we're going to see a nerf to Prep. Like I'd be absolutely shocked and frustrated if Druid gets to keep their Ramp and Rogues lose theirs.
That's what I've been saying as well. Prep is balanced only when compared to Innervate. I'll be really frustrated, if they nerf Prep and leave Innervate as it is.
I won't claim that I'd quit the game, but I would need Blizzard to immediately provide Rogues with a card to point at and say "We could make this because we made a change to Prep" to not create a Twitter account just to ask Ben Brode why he hates Rogue players so much. Especially after explaining that adjustments to Druid Ramp took too much identity out of the class. Because Rogue players are generally awesome people that play the class because they love it, I'm sure they would adapt... but Prep is absolutely part of the Rogue identity. So part of it is because I legitimately think there isn't a reason to nerf it (quick Prep+Sprint math; you spend two cards and 4 mana for 4 cards, which means you essentially cycled and gained two cards, not what I'd call OP), and partially because I want to assume Blizzard doesn't actually hate Rogue players and their adjustments are going to be stuff we can at least somewhat swallow the justification for.
(For my answer): Yeah, I dont think I would quit either, if they properly considered the situation and made proper adjustments to the class (not TGT adjustments)
(Some personal thoughts for your other comment): If you put it that way, then a change in Shadowstep is quite possible. However, if they make it 1-mana, I'd prefer if they also somewhat change the effect to differentiate from the Toxin. I like the utility in the Rogue cards but I dont like that some of them are either useless or broken (Shadowstep is there for me). I prefer if we get these utilities through Toxin-based mechanics (discover mostly) and have in our core set more functional than clunky cards.
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'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
I honestly don't see a single vanilla Rogue card that needs a nerf. People seem to be bitching about how strong Blade Flurry is, but I have no goddamn idea what their smoking. It's a board clear/ face damage that needs a hero power and a second card to be worth fuck all. Warlocks can basically do the exact same thing with Hellfire for 1 mana less.
I honestly don't see a single vanilla Rogue card that needs a nerf. People seem to be bitching about how strong Blade Flurry is, but I have no goddamn idea what their smoking. It's a board clear/ face damage that needs a hero power and a second card to be worth fuck all. Warlocks can basically do the exact same thing with Hellfire for 1 mana less.
Because your are unable to see further than the already established cards. You want rogue to have good weapons or buffs better than deadly poison ? As long as blade flurry is here, you will never get these cards.
That's simple, you keep blade flurry, and Blizz keeps giving poisoned blade tier cards to rogue. Deal?
At this point, I don't trust Blizzards "Oh we can't give you better cards because of cards x and z" bullshit. We're talking about the people who argued that Patron was beyond overpowered, but then gave us secret Paladin. We're talking about the people who had no problems releasing cards like Doctor 7 and Shredder, but now Master of Disguise is somehow an issue? Until they actually release some overpowered Rogue cards, I'm gonna have to call bullshit.
Seriously, why would you trust Blizzard with nerfing Blade Flurry, the only reliable board clear Rogues have in favor of getting a weapon that Blizzard thinks will be enough to keep a Flurryless rogue viable?
Well, no other class has board clear that can wipe a board full of Molten Giants while simultaneously dealing 10 damage to your opponent's face.
On the other hand, Rogue board clear generally requires 2-3 cards so you rarely actually gain card advantage from it.
And Rogue cards are balanced around that (translation: most Rogue cards are shit), so if you nerf Blade Flurry to only deal damage to minions, Rogues are going to find it very hard to do things like actually kill their opponents. A big problem has been that their removal/board clear and kill spells are the same cards (Blade Flurry, Eviscerate).
I fully expect Blade Flurry to receive said nerf, and the Forbidden Rogue card will be 0 mana: Use all your mana. Give your weapon +1 attack for each mana spent this way. Forbidden Venom or something...a card that would have been unthinkable with Blade Flurry in its current form. You'd just hero power on 9, Forbidden Venom on 10, Prep + Blade Flurry for 22 face damage from hand.
Rogue will slow down a bit and play a bit more for value. New avenues of play will open up. But with the lack of healing options in standard, and the general lack of aptitude the HS balance team has shown thus far, I expect Rogue will have a bit of a hard time for a while.
I honestly don't see a single vanilla Rogue card that needs a nerf. People seem to be bitching about how strong Blade Flurry is, but I have no goddamn idea what their smoking. It's a board clear/ face damage that needs a hero power and a second card to be worth fuck all. Warlocks can basically do the exact same thing with Hellfire for 1 mana less.
Because your are unable to see further than the already established cards. You want rogue to have good weapons or buffs better than deadly poison ? As long as blade flurry is here, you will never get these cards.
That's simple, you keep blade flurry, and Blizz keeps giving poisoned blade tier cards to rogue. Deal?
At this point, I don't trust Blizzards "Oh we can't give you better cards because of cards x and z" bullshit. We're talking about the people who argued that Patron was beyond overpowered, but then gave us secret Paladin. We're talking about the people who had no problems releasing cards like Doctor 7 and Shredder, but now Master of Disguise is somehow an issue? Until they actually release some overpowered Rogue cards, I'm gonna have to call bullshit.
Seriously, why would you trust Blizzard with nerfing Blade Flurry, the only reliable board clear Rogues have in favor of getting a weapon that Blizzard thinks will be enough to keep a Flurryless rogue viable?
Even though I dont agree so much with Mazzmaker, I have to point out that he's kind of right on sth. These are the guys who said that they printed Hemet Nesingwary because of an OP beast hunter deck during their testing phase. They also said that they were afraid of MoD+Summoning Stone interaction but nothing happened after all.
The class cannot move forward on mere speculations and fears (seems they have no problem with the other classes though) + (stats in Xaril, Poisoned Mind). And even if there is a game breaking deck, they can always change by nerfing some cards, right? (this is one point where you can see, if they're greedy or not).
Overall, I'm pretty satisfied with the Toxin concept and I hope to see more interaction with it now and in the future.
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'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
At this point, I don't trust Blizzards "Oh we can't give you better cards because of cards x and z" bullshit. We're talking about the people who argued that Patron was beyond overpowered, but then gave us secret Paladin. We're talking about the people who had no problems releasing cards like Doctor 7 and Shredder, but now Master of Disguise is somehow an issue? Until they actually release some overpowered Rogue cards, I'm gonna have to call bullshit.
Seriously, why would you trust Blizzard with nerfing Blade Flurry, the only reliable board clear Rogues have in favor of getting a weapon that Blizzard thinks will be enough to keep a Flurryless rogue viable?
I can agree that Blizzard was disappointing in the past. But as a TCG players for 15 years and a fromer beta player, I can tell you that blade flurry is a really dangerous card. It shares so much with the former Salvagery and Envenom, two cards that got destroyed by blizzard because they created toxic archetypes back in the days.
The major flaw in your statement is that Blade Flurry is not only used as a Board clear. That's why the card is broken : it is supposed to be a boardclear, not a way to deal stupid amount of damage to your opponent's face by doubling your weapon's damage output. I know I repeat myself, but as long as BF is able to deal face damage, you will never see good weapons for rogue.
The fix is quite simple : reduce the durability of the weapon by 1 instead of destroying it, and remove the face damage.
Your argument has one major flaw in it. You assume that Blizzard will ever give rogues another decent tool to replace the lost face damage from BF or that the new version of rogue that doesn't go for face damage with BF will be in any way viable. I've played pretty much every single Blizzard game ever and they are in no way infallible. I am not going to trust the company that thought that the Diablo 3 real money auction house was a good idea, the company that has had balance issues in pretty much every single game and the company that really hasn't learned from their mistakes to simply change a card because of the potential dangers it presents in compination with some supposed future cards.
Let the player base test the news cards with the so called "problematic" cards and then do the necessary balance changes. Basically, I want a Hearthstone PTR server.
I am not going to trust the company that thought that the Diablo 3 real money auction house was a good idea, the company that has had balance issues in pretty much every single game and the company that really hasn't learned from their mistakes to simply change a card because of the potential dangers it presents in compination with some supposed future cards.
1 - Not the same devs working on diablo and HS.
2- They did it GvG and the spare parts with auctioneer, and it was a major argument for the Warsong Commander nerf (design space)
3- Since your only argument is "I don't trust blizzard, they are stupid and don't know shit about game design" and nothing more I will stop this conversation with you. Have a ggod day Sir.
About your second point, they didnt do it with Archmage Antonidas though (and basically Auctioneer was used only in Rogue at the time); if Patron Warrior wasn't the strongest/meta-defining deck, would they still nerf Warsong with the "design space" argument? (not to mention the tournament scene with basically 3 decks in it)
For your third point, I dont think that was his argumetnt
I am not going to trust the company that thought that the Diablo 3 real money auction house was a good idea, the company that has had balance issues in pretty much every single game and the company that really hasn't learned from their mistakes to simply change a card because of the potential dangers it presents in compination with some supposed future cards.
1 - Not the same devs working on diablo and HS.
2- They did it GvG and the spare parts with auctioneer, and it was a major argument for the Warsong Commander nerf (design space)
3- Since your only argument is "I don't trust blizzard, they are stupid and don't know shit about game design" and nothing more I will stop this conversation with you. Have a good day Sir.
Way to strawman like a pro. By your logic, your sole argument boils down to "Blizzard are the gods of game design and can do no wrong, do not show any dissenting opinion and trust your Lords and Masters at Blizzard and your Eternal Savior Ben Brode".
I am not going to trust the company that thought that the Diablo 3 real money auction house was a good idea, the company that has had balance issues in pretty much every single game and the company that really hasn't learned from their mistakes to simply change a card because of the potential dangers it presents in compination with some supposed future cards.
1 - Not the same devs working on diablo and HS.
2- They did it GvG and the spare parts with auctioneer, and it was a major argument for the Warsong Commander nerf (design space)
3- Since your only argument is "I don't trust blizzard, they are stupid and don't know shit about game design" and nothing more I will stop this conversation with you. Have a good day Sir.
Way to strawman like a pro. By your logic, your sole argument boils down to "Blizzard are the gods of game design and can do no wrong, do not show any dissenting opinion and trust your Lords and Masters at Blizzard and your Eternal Savior Ben Brode".
By your logic, your sole argument boils down to words. Which is one thousandth as effective as this picture-based argument:
About your second point, they didnt do it with Archmage Antonidas though (and basically Auctioneer was used only in Rogue at the time); if Patron Warrior wasn't the strongest/meta-defining deck, would they still nerf Warsong with the "design space" argument? (not to mention the tournament scene with basically 3 decks in it)
For your third point, I dont think that was his argumetnt
Because archmage is a high costed legendary class card. Because they said that Dreadsteed was supposed to be neutral but they couldn't leave it to warrior because of warsong. Because Ben Brode stated multiple times that direct damage and charge were probably the most unfun mechanics in Hearthstone, and they underestimated them when they created the game.
I am kinda tired of talking about stuff people are not even aware about because complaining is easier than just trying to seek info and asking yourself the right questions. Not trying to def Blizzard in any way (most of their decisions are questionnable). People are so short minded and they complain about Blizzard being too conservative afterwards. What a bunch of hypocrites. Seriously.
Cool your head off. The only one complaining here is you.
They said that the Warsong interaction was problematic since Naxx, so they could have thought it more at that time. Charge is an issue but the Druid combo deck has been in the game, since the beginning. As for Archmage, I can say the same about Xaril and give it +1 attack (or +1/+1 and make it a Tirion) but the card is as fair as an epic minion.
(Last point since you wish to end the discussion): I completely agree with your argument about BF and MoD and I do see the game-breaking potential with these cards. However, there's no denying that the HS team has been (and still is) overly cautious with the class, while that's not the case with the others.
I honestly don't see a single vanilla Rogue card that needs a nerf. People seem to be bitching about how strong Blade Flurry is, but I have no goddamn idea what their smoking. It's a board clear/ face damage that needs a hero power and a second card to be worth fuck all. Warlocks can basically do the exact same thing with Hellfire for 1 mana less.
Because your are unable to see further than the already established cards. You want rogue to have good weapons or buffs better than deadly poison ? As long as blade flurry is here, you will never get these cards.
That's simple, you keep blade flurry, and Blizz keeps giving poisoned blade tier cards to rogue. Deal?
Not only a great point there...but are we ignoring that Hellfire nukes your board and face as well?
I am not going to trust the company that thought that the Diablo 3 real money auction house was a good idea, the company that has had balance issues in pretty much every single game and the company that really hasn't learned from their mistakes to simply change a card because of the potential dangers it presents in compination with some supposed future cards.
1 - Not the same devs working on diablo and HS.
2- They did it GvG and the spare parts with auctioneer, and it was a major argument for the Warsong Commander nerf (design space)
3- Since your only argument is "I don't trust blizzard, they are stupid and don't know shit about game design" and nothing more I will stop this conversation with you. Have a good day Sir.
Way to strawman like a pro. By your logic, your sole argument boils down to "Blizzard are the gods of game design and can do no wrong, do not show any dissenting opinion and trust your Lords and Masters at Blizzard and your Eternal Savior Ben Brode".
By your logic, your sole argument boils down to words. Which is one thousandth as effective as this picture-based argument:
(Last point since you wish to end the discussion): I completely agree with your argument about BF and MoD and I do see the game-breaking potential with these cards. However, there's no denying that the HS team has been (and still is) overly cautious with the class, while that's not the case with the others.
Because you probably never experienced alpha / beta rogue. This class was the dumbest thing Hearthstone will ever see with savagery druid. You never experienced the 28 damage over two cards burst, the one-mana, draw 2 cards spell, and all the other shit that rogue had, like perma stealth 0 mana conceal and Edwin VanCleef with built-in stealth.
And because you never experienced that, you will understand why Blizzard is so careful with Rogue. This class has always been a problem, either useless and barely playable or completely dominant. That's why they need to get rid of the problematic cards, even if the class is barely playable right now. You think cards like blade flurry are keeping Rogue alive ? You are wrong, they are the ones killing it.
Since many core cards are like this, what do you expect.
Who FFS told you that I think that? Once more, calm yourself kid; your anger clouds your mind and you jump into baseless conclusions.
(Last point since you wish to end the discussion): I completely agree with your argument about BF and MoD and I do see the game-breaking potential with these cards. However, there's no denying that the HS team has been (and still is) overly cautious with the class, while that's not the case with the others.
Because you probably never experienced alpha / beta rogue. This class was the dumbest thing Hearthstone will ever see with savagery druid. You never experienced the 28 damage over two cards burst, the one-mana, draw 2 cards spell, and all the other shit that rogue had, like perma stealth 0 mana conceal and Edwin VanCleef with built-in stealth.
And because you never experienced that, you will understand why Blizzard is so careful with Rogue. This class has always been a problem, either useless and barely playable or completely dominant. That's why they need to get rid of the problematic cards, even if the class is barely playable right now. You think cards like blade flurry are keeping Rogue alive ? You are wrong, they are the ones killing it.
So basically, you want to Blizzard to make rogue unplayable for the foreseeable future in hopes that somewhere down the line they MIGHT make a different variation of Rogue competitive, a variation that might feel so different from todays rogue that it might as well be an entirely different class. And you don't see a damn thing wrong with that?
And you're not the only one who played the beta, yeah there were some overpowered things in the Beta. But your solution burn Rogue as a class to the ground in hopes that Blizzard at some point will give us the tools to be competitive again is asinine.
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I don't think backstab or sap Will Be nerfed.
1.) backstab. It is NOT a spell without costs. It costs 1 cardslot. Which makes it hard to Trade 1vs1 with it. No other class would Play this card (unless miracle/malydecks) because it s only worth the cardloss if you can Clear a early minion with high value (like knifejuggler or secretkeeper) or to setup a combo. Otherwise it s a Plain tempoplay which gives you carddisatvantage in the Longterm. Especially if prep (for Sprint) gets nerfed.
2.) Sap. Other classes have stronger removals for about the Same cost. Which actually kill the minion. Yes. Ofc. Against deathrattleminions the sap Is stronger. But the other way around. Against minions with Strong battlecries it s way Weaker. Yes the other classes cheap big removals have conditions (execute, swd, shieldslam, poly, huntersmark, equality, keeper of uldaman etc.) but the other classes do Not put themselves in a carddisatvantage with their removals. Cause in constructed you usually can easily get those conditions, cause your deck Happens to have quite some synergie.
the only Cards that i See in rogue that Need nerfing Are: conseal, the minion that gives stealth And Blade Flurry. Mit because they Are so OP. They Are Fine or Bad in the current decks. I mean the higher Tier any rogue Deck has Been in the Last 3 months Is maybe Tier 3. obviously the class Is Not OP. So the Nerfs can only Be because current Cards may Limit designing New cards for rogue. and Not only for rogue. Designing New neutral minions means having in mind what every class Could Do with it. So you cannot make any neutral card that may Be abused by conseal (for example)
Shadowstep should Be nerfed/ removed aswell. Due to abusepotential with any Kind of battlecry (everybody knows about which legendary i m thinking).
Tldr: Stop thinking blizz Nerfs Cards that Are Strong. Rogue isn't strong, it a Not necessairy to nerf Cards of this class, simply cause they Are Strong. Cards of this class that Need Nerfs Are the Cards that have the Potential to Be abused hard.
I genuinely do not believe we're going to see a nerf to Prep. Like I'd be absolutely shocked and frustrated if Druid gets to keep their Ramp and Rogues lose theirs.
As far as Backstab goes... I honestly don't know of a different version that would be satisfactory. I'd lean towards the 2-damage Toxin as a potential change that could be made, but that genuinely seems broken in something like Malyrogue. It's more of a hunch than anything since they implied Rogue's Basic set in general was at a higher level than anyone else's and my experience is telling me that card has something to do with it. We shall see when they announce the nerfs, like I said it's only a hunch.
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I m impressed by your argumentation. I realy am. The only statement i disagree with Is the "rogue Is Strong" part. Problem Is, with this assumtion Stands And falls our two positions. Ofc it will heavily depend on New Card releases, if rogue becomes Strong in crafted i agree with every Point you made. At current State i think we can agree that rogue, maybe with Shaman, Is the weakest class atm. Which Is partially due to the meta. current Meta Is basically you re either very fast or realy slow. It s hard to match your techcards against both.
Absurd if they go through with it. Rogues use the same old cards because they can't replace it with something as good/good in certain situations/decks. Give Rogues more niche cards a la Beast related Druid cards so Rogues can evolve in other ways than Miracle/Oil. Unearthed Raptor is a prime example of a card that creates and serves a certain niche. Deathrattle rogue before LOE? Lol. If they wanna move away from Eviscerate, Backstab, SI: 7 etc etc, give Rogues cards that can replace them without being OP. It wouldn't be impossible, but nerfing is of course easier.
Master of Disguise should be changed though to only give stealth for one turn and to become a 4/5. I really hope they do that, because I have 2 golden ones :D Maybe Blade Flurry aswell when I think about it. But that's basically it IMO. Preparation could perhaps be made to cost 1 mana but give 4 mana discount on the next spell, that would be reasonable and only a small nerf.
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I honestly don't see a single vanilla Rogue card that needs a nerf. People seem to be bitching about how strong Blade Flurry is, but I have no goddamn idea what their smoking. It's a board clear/ face damage that needs a hero power and a second card to be worth fuck all. Warlocks can basically do the exact same thing with Hellfire for 1 mana less.
Well, no other class has board clear that can wipe a board full of Molten Giants while simultaneously dealing 10 damage to your opponent's face.
On the other hand, Rogue board clear generally requires 2-3 cards so you rarely actually gain card advantage from it.
And Rogue cards are balanced around that (translation: most Rogue cards are shit), so if you nerf Blade Flurry to only deal damage to minions, Rogues are going to find it very hard to do things like actually kill their opponents. A big problem has been that their removal/board clear and kill spells are the same cards (Blade Flurry, Eviscerate).
I fully expect Blade Flurry to receive said nerf, and the Forbidden Rogue card will be 0 mana: Use all your mana. Give your weapon +1 attack for each mana spent this way. Forbidden Venom or something...a card that would have been unthinkable with Blade Flurry in its current form. You'd just hero power on 9, Forbidden Venom on 10, Prep + Blade Flurry for 22 face damage from hand.
Rogue will slow down a bit and play a bit more for value. New avenues of play will open up. But with the lack of healing options in standard, and the general lack of aptitude the HS balance team has shown thus far, I expect Rogue will have a bit of a hard time for a while.
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