"Basic Rogue cards are seen as slightly too strong. Blizzard is cautious about adding powerful Rogue cards in expansions, since the power level of Rogue Basic cards is already so high. For example, Tinker's Sharpsword Oil and Tomb Pillager are two of the only significant additions in all of the expansions and adventures for the Rogue class. Look for Basic Rogue cards to be nerfed so that more powerful Rogue cards can be added in future expansions."
I was really surprised when I read this. Even though Rogue is one of my favorite classes, I must say that really only one deck has been usable in high ranks (Oil Rogue). Looking at Rogue's basics, I don't see much difference between them and basics of other classes (maybe druid is the class that has better basics then others, but not rogue). Yes, there are some nice cards, but they aren't anyway better than other classes basics and Rogue still has some crap cards and I see no card that is game breaking or affecting design space. I support the nerf of Master of Disguise, because it's not played, but it causes problems creating and designing new netural or rogue minions.
If they nerf cards like Preparation or Blade Flurry, I'm afraid that without amazing cards next expansion, rogue will see no play at all in competitive game. I really hope it does not happen.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
But there is really nothing special in the rogue basic cards, I also suppose they should be talking about classics too, although, except for Master of Disguise, nerfing some of them would be like a very bad joke from Blizzard.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
But there is really nothing special in the rogue basic cards, I also suppose they should be talking about classics too, but except for Master of Disguise, nerfing some of them would be like a very bad joke from Blizzard.
It's their excuse for the fact that Rogue has only gotten 2 playable cards in the past 2 years.
That's exactly their point though. In every rogue deck (much like druids) we have like 15 basic rogue cards and all rogue decks are the same, because thats the only thing thats viable - we always play around the basic cards.
But in this case it's not the fault of the basic and classic rogue cards, they are not that powerful and most rogue cards from the expansions and adventures have never been truly viable. You can't really compare the rogue class with the druid one...
I don't think it's so much that the current cards are breaking design space, but some Rogue cards that exist right now are limiting what they can actually print. I think the last poster was pretty spot-on with their speculations, as I can't really see any of the other cards being changed drastically (Basic seems like it also means Classic, but who knows). In any case, a quick rundown of what we could expect:
Master of Disguise Limits design on Rogue minions, as a cheap enough minion with a powerful passive effect would bust things wide open for this card. As everyone else has said already, best guess is that the Battlecry effect mirrors Conceal - i.e. Stealth until the start of your next turn.
Preparation Though it is restricted to spells, mana discounting and cheating powerful spells into play is a dangerous thing to have exist unless done properly. Reducing the cost of a spell by three mana is pretty insane, and is likely limiting what sort of Rogue spells we're seeing currently. It's the same issue with Innervate right now, these sorts of cards have very unfair effects, and it's tricky to find balance between "useless" and "broken." I'm not sure what the best change is - whether simply making the reduction only two mana or redesigning how the card works - but as we near the update I won't be surprised to see Preparation with a new look.
Blade Flurry Another case of restricting future designs (a bit of a theme here :P), but this time with weapons and buffing spells. I mean, it's a little sad to a weapon-centric class have such pathetic options at their disposal. Granted, buffing effects do exist, but things aren't much better on that front. Deadly Poison and Tinker's Sharpsword Oil are fantastic, but after that it drops off immensely, and it does appear that Blade Flurry is partially to blame. Largely, it's mostly because it can deal damage to the face along with clearing the opposing board of minions. It's a case of "having your cake and eating it, too," and that does seem problematic. I feel like the best change would be to remove said face damage, as the effect of the card otherwise is pretty reasonable; you're getting a scaling board clear in exchange for your weapon and often other cards. It'll take away Rogue's burst potential in one way, but it will allow other kinds to emerge in the form of better class weapons and buffers.
Sap Now, this is an interesting choice, but looking at it again I can see where design might be coming from if Sap does indeed get changed - even if it feels unlikely. Rogues aren't great at killing big minions, but Sap offers a means for them to remove it in order to finish the job before the big minion in question becomes too much of a problem. While it's a much needed effect, the efficiency of it does hinder the dev team's ability to design other interesting cards that could help Rogue fight big minions in other ways. It causes the problem of "well, this is cool and all, but Sap's just better X times out of Y, etc." It's probably not the biggest concern for them right now, but it's something they may consider.
Well if they really mean Basic cards, I can only imagine they mean Sap or Backstab. Backstab is indeed a very strong card, but I don't see how you could nerf it (again!) without making it completely useless. It's also so important for Combo. Pls don't do it. They could make cost Sap more and maybe giving it another effect, maybe 4 mana and draw a card.
But tbh I believe they don't mean they want to nerf Basic cards but rather Classic ones.
Changing Preparation to 2 mana discount would be a very bad change I guess. I can only imagine a rework.
As much as I love Blade Flurry, I agree that it destricts dsign space, as Blizzard can't release ridiculous weapon buffs. Changing it to only damage minions would be fine I guess (remember we might get some new ways to burst enemy heroes).
Master of Disguise is just terrible design. It restricts design space and sucks at the same time. I'm hoping for a rework. Obviously should be, that it can only last for one turn. Cool would be if you could also target enemy minions, as you could bypass Taunt for one turn. Even better would be a 2/2 for 2. Awesome would be if you could even target your hero.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
But there is really nothing special in the rogue basic cards, I also suppose they should be talking about classics too, but except for Master of Disguise, nerfing some of them would be like a very bad joke from Blizzard.
It's their excuse for the fact that Rogue has only gotten 2 playable cards in the past 2 years.
^^ :D True.
I don't mind what they do but the fact that they're not buffing cards means that there won't be balanced changes in the class (unless with nerfs they mean balanced changes).
If they nerf Rogue like this I might just quit the game. None of these cards need to be changed, I could see Blade Flurry getting a change, and I guess that'd be fine but it's not overpowered or anything. Rogue hasn't been a top tier class since miracle, when was the last time we had a Rogue meta like we have a Paladin/Druid meta right now? It's already frustrating that Blizzard gives us very few tools every expansion, but if they change the core cards of Rogue it'll kill the class.
Rogue does not need ridiculous weapon buffs. Rogue needs useful weapons buff. Something like "Give your weapon +1/+1 and Spell Power +1", something like "When you attack a minion with your weapon, restore to your hero as much health as damage dealt", something like "Give your weapon Deathrattle : equip a random weapon".
Blade Flurry is not a problem, it's not even played in Tempo Rogue and played as a one-of in Miracle Rogue. We don't want Rogue to be just "buff your weapon and kill the ennemy", we want fun and original mechanics like every other class do.
Sap is not a problem neither. It's a good Tempo tool but far from being strong as Execute, Entomb or Shield Slam.
Blizzard just finds terrible excuses for their crappy cards they gave Rogue since the game was out.
I don't know why people are talking about classic cards. Unless I'm wrong, basic does not mean classic. We're talking about deadly poison, sap, fan of knives, even sprint is insane when used with prep.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I realized life is this crazy, mystical thing, and sometimes you just go out like a buster."
Well if they really mean Basic cards, I can only imagine they mean Sap or Backstab. Backstab is indeed a very strong card, but I don't see how you could nerf it (again!) without making it completely useless. It's also so important for Combo. Pls don't do it. They could make cost Sap more and maybe giving it another effect, maybe 4 mana and draw a card.
But tbh I believe they don't mean they want to nerf Basic cards but rather Classic ones.
Changing Preparation to 2 mana discount would be a very bad change I guess. I can only imagine a rework.
As much as I love Blade Flurry, I agree that it destricts dsign space, as Blizzard can't release ridiculous weapon buffs. Changing it to only damage minions would be fine I guess (remember we might get some new ways to burst enemy heroes).
Master of Disguise is just terrible design. It restricts design space and sucks at the same time. I'm hoping for a rework. Obviously should be, that it can only last for one turn. Cool would be if you could also target enemy minions, as you could bypass Taunt for one turn. Even better would be a 2/2 for 2. Awesome would be if you could even target your hero.
That's why I didn't mention Backstab. I find it perfectly balanced and it's one of the few cards that fits Rogue's flavor so much.
I wouldn't be surprised if they reworked Sap. Maybe to give enemy minions "Can't attack" for 1 mana? Change in the mana cost wouldn't make sense, as I believe it's the effect that makes the card either useless or broken depending on the mana cost.
I agree for Preparation but I'm not sure how to change it. Maybe to reduce by 3 the cost of the first spell you play next turn? The name would make more sense that way, since you prepare a turn earlier.
I dont mind them to change Blade Flurry as long as we get decent burst.
Completely agree about Master of Disguise. I'd prefer it as 3 mana 3/4 but I dont care if they even remove it from the set and rotate sth else from GvG (Ogre Ninja? :P).
I don't know why people are talking about classic cards. Unless I'm wrong, basic does not mean classic. We're talking about deadly poison, sap, fan of knives, even sprint is insane when used with prep.
You answered your own question. My guess is that since we're having rotated sets, basic and classic should be considered as one basic/core set from Blizzard.
I'm with you. But even Tinker's Sharpsword Oil, which only gave +3 attack led to huge bursts with Blade Flurry. If this is really Blizzards concern, please for gods sake they should nerf Blade Flurry that it only damages minions and give us useful weapon buffs. We could always get something similar to Blade Flurry in later expansions (like alpha's Envenom). With the rotation Blizzard can balance such things and weapon buffs.
Im not into weapons for Rogue as it renders it's hero power useless, unsless it somehow works with the hero power, i.e. Battlecry: if you already have a weapon eqipped give it +x/+x instead of replacing it with this weapn or something like this.
If Blizzard is going to do what they did for the past hs releases which is release extremely few good things for rogue... because they are affraid of rogue and its basic/classic cards... then they better nerf stuffs so we do see new things in the future. Rogue is one of the 2-3 most interesting classes (if not THE most interesting one) but if we continue to play with almost exactly the same cards for another year or two most of us will definetely get bored to death of it.
Here: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/506312-monk-visits-blizzard-changes-coming-to-standard is this information:
"Basic Rogue cards are seen as slightly too strong. Blizzard is cautious about adding powerful Rogue cards in expansions, since the power level of Rogue Basic cards is already so high. For example, Tinker's Sharpsword Oil and Tomb Pillager are two of the only significant additions in all of the expansions and adventures for the Rogue class. Look for Basic Rogue cards to be nerfed so that more powerful Rogue cards can be added in future expansions."
I was really surprised when I read this. Even though Rogue is one of my favorite classes, I must say that really only one deck has been usable in high ranks (Oil Rogue). Looking at Rogue's basics, I don't see much difference between them and basics of other classes (maybe druid is the class that has better basics then others, but not rogue). Yes, there are some nice cards, but they aren't anyway better than other classes basics and Rogue still has some crap cards and I see no card that is game breaking or affecting design space. I support the nerf of Master of Disguise, because it's not played, but it causes problems creating and designing new netural or rogue minions.
If they nerf cards like Preparation or Blade Flurry, I'm afraid that without amazing cards next expansion, rogue will see no play at all in competitive game. I really hope it does not happen.
Maybe. That's why I find the "not buffing" mentality a bit absolute. Rogue was already nerfed during alpha/beta phase and I mean nerfed, not balanced. I'm curious to see how far they'll go with this.
If I had to guess some of the cards I'd say: Master of Disguise, Preparation, Blade Flurry and Sap.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
Really Blizzard?. Really?.
OMG, what are you doing Ben Brode?... :(
If anything they might nerf blade flurry. But Rogue is honestly a really, really weak class.
I don't think it's so much that the current cards are breaking design space, but some Rogue cards that exist right now are limiting what they can actually print. I think the last poster was pretty spot-on with their speculations, as I can't really see any of the other cards being changed drastically (Basic seems like it also means Classic, but who knows). In any case, a quick rundown of what we could expect:
Master of Disguise Limits design on Rogue minions, as a cheap enough minion with a powerful passive effect would bust things wide open for this card. As everyone else has said already, best guess is that the Battlecry effect mirrors Conceal - i.e. Stealth until the start of your next turn.
Preparation Though it is restricted to spells, mana discounting and cheating powerful spells into play is a dangerous thing to have exist unless done properly. Reducing the cost of a spell by three mana is pretty insane, and is likely limiting what sort of Rogue spells we're seeing currently. It's the same issue with Innervate right now, these sorts of cards have very unfair effects, and it's tricky to find balance between "useless" and "broken." I'm not sure what the best change is - whether simply making the reduction only two mana or redesigning how the card works - but as we near the update I won't be surprised to see Preparation with a new look.
Blade Flurry Another case of restricting future designs (a bit of a theme here :P), but this time with weapons and buffing spells. I mean, it's a little sad to a weapon-centric class have such pathetic options at their disposal. Granted, buffing effects do exist, but things aren't much better on that front. Deadly Poison and Tinker's Sharpsword Oil are fantastic, but after that it drops off immensely, and it does appear that Blade Flurry is partially to blame. Largely, it's mostly because it can deal damage to the face along with clearing the opposing board of minions. It's a case of "having your cake and eating it, too," and that does seem problematic. I feel like the best change would be to remove said face damage, as the effect of the card otherwise is pretty reasonable; you're getting a scaling board clear in exchange for your weapon and often other cards. It'll take away Rogue's burst potential in one way, but it will allow other kinds to emerge in the form of better class weapons and buffers.
Sap Now, this is an interesting choice, but looking at it again I can see where design might be coming from if Sap does indeed get changed - even if it feels unlikely. Rogues aren't great at killing big minions, but Sap offers a means for them to remove it in order to finish the job before the big minion in question becomes too much of a problem. While it's a much needed effect, the efficiency of it does hinder the dev team's ability to design other interesting cards that could help Rogue fight big minions in other ways. It causes the problem of "well, this is cool and all, but Sap's just better X times out of Y, etc." It's probably not the biggest concern for them right now, but it's something they may consider.
Not that rogues are OP but Blade Furry definetely needs a nerf.
Playing vs rogue it's all about the blade furry.
"Does he have it now"
IF Yes Then I lose
Else I win.
Well if they really mean Basic cards, I can only imagine they mean Sap or Backstab. Backstab is indeed a very strong card, but I don't see how you could nerf it (again!) without making it completely useless. It's also so important for Combo. Pls don't do it. They could make cost Sap more and maybe giving it another effect, maybe 4 mana and draw a card.
But tbh I believe they don't mean they want to nerf Basic cards but rather Classic ones.
Changing Preparation to 2 mana discount would be a very bad change I guess. I can only imagine a rework.
As much as I love Blade Flurry, I agree that it destricts dsign space, as Blizzard can't release ridiculous weapon buffs. Changing it to only damage minions would be fine I guess (remember we might get some new ways to burst enemy heroes).
Master of Disguise is just terrible design. It restricts design space and sucks at the same time. I'm hoping for a rework. Obviously should be, that it can only last for one turn. Cool would be if you could also target enemy minions, as you could bypass Taunt for one turn. Even better would be a 2/2 for 2. Awesome would be if you could even target your hero.
- senti
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
we'll see. These are hints anyways, it could be wrongly received. I'll wait, with tension. Still haven't seen any new rogue cards anyways.
If they nerf Rogue like this I might just quit the game. None of these cards need to be changed, I could see Blade Flurry getting a change, and I guess that'd be fine but it's not overpowered or anything. Rogue hasn't been a top tier class since miracle, when was the last time we had a Rogue meta like we have a Paladin/Druid meta right now? It's already frustrating that Blizzard gives us very few tools every expansion, but if they change the core cards of Rogue it'll kill the class.
I wish Valeera had tentacles for arms
Rogue does not need ridiculous weapon buffs. Rogue needs useful weapons buff. Something like "Give your weapon +1/+1 and Spell Power +1", something like "When you attack a minion with your weapon, restore to your hero as much health as damage dealt", something like "Give your weapon Deathrattle : equip a random weapon".
Rogue could also use USEFUL weapons, that have cool effects like Coghammer, Gorehowl, Gladiator's Longbow, Death's Bite, Charged Hammer, Eaglehorn Bow, Truesilver Champion, Powermace, Sword of Justice or Glaivezooka. For now Rogue has only shitty weapons, with Perdition's Blade being the only one with a decent effect, but terrible stats.
Blade Flurry is not a problem, it's not even played in Tempo Rogue and played as a one-of in Miracle Rogue. We don't want Rogue to be just "buff your weapon and kill the ennemy", we want fun and original mechanics like every other class do.
Sap is not a problem neither. It's a good Tempo tool but far from being strong as Execute, Entomb or Shield Slam.
Blizzard just finds terrible excuses for their crappy cards they gave Rogue since the game was out.
I don't know why people are talking about classic cards. Unless I'm wrong, basic does not mean classic. We're talking about deadly poison, sap, fan of knives, even sprint is insane when used with prep.
"I realized life is this crazy, mystical thing, and sometimes you just go out like a buster."
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
I'm with you. But even Tinker's Sharpsword Oil, which only gave +3 attack led to huge bursts with Blade Flurry. If this is really Blizzards concern, please for gods sake they should nerf Blade Flurry that it only damages minions and give us useful weapon buffs. We could always get something similar to Blade Flurry in later expansions (like alpha's Envenom). With the rotation Blizzard can balance such things and weapon buffs.
Im not into weapons for Rogue as it renders it's hero power useless, unsless it somehow works with the hero power, i.e. Battlecry: if you already have a weapon eqipped give it +x/+x instead of replacing it with this weapn or something like this.
- senti
If Blizzard is going to do what they did for the past hs releases which is release extremely few good things for rogue... because they are affraid of rogue and its basic/classic cards... then they better nerf stuffs so we do see new things in the future. Rogue is one of the 2-3 most interesting classes (if not THE most interesting one) but if we continue to play with almost exactly the same cards for another year or two most of us will definetely get bored to death of it.