So the last time Yogg-Saron, Hope's End got nerfed, Blizzard explained they never intended for Yogg to be a competitive card, but more of a fun card. They didn't want Yogg to end up in tournaments or high legend ladder. And I think we can all collectively agree it was lame to lose or win games because of the pure randomness that Yogg brought along.
Now after the nerf Yogg has returned once more. He's very popular in jade druid right now, versions of which ended up in top 10 legend ladder and he was even brought to the tournament which Blizzard wanted to avoid.
Ofcourse, if Blizzard wants to address this issue once more it's logical for them to wait until the Un'Goro meta has settled, to see if he's still strong after that. As it is though, I definitely think Yogg should be nerfed again. I personally hate him because he can ruin competitive games.
What do you think? Should Yogg be nerfed? Why/why not? And if he needs to be nerfed, how? I added a poll but you can clarify your answer in the comments if you want to.
Heck no. The last time a card got nerfed twice, it was Warsong Commander-and nobody wants anything close to a repeat of what happened to Warsong Commander. Yogg already became enough of a generally unreliable and situational card after they edited his Battlecry-if the Jade junkies are abusing him again, that's most likely just because of the current state of the game and what's making cards viable. Besides, it's not like Yogg has a lot of power against the Pirate Warriors.
I don't think Yogg is an issue at this point. Nerfs I'd like to see made right now are to remove the pirate tag from N'Zoth's First Mate and for wild change Ship's Cannon to say "Whenever you PLAY a pirate, deal 2 damage to a random enemy." Right now the First Mate into Patches is too much tempo, basically being a better muster for Battle at two less mana, and when Ship's cannon gets two pings off of one card it can be game ending.
I want him rebuffed and removed from ladder completely, as casual-only card. I loved his retarded randomness and tossing spells everywhere, now he gets silenced/killed after casting 3 spells, which is retarded and not fun at all.
C'mon, I like fireworks, why forbiding fireworks in clown-fiestas in casual only because "high level pro players" (lul) run him in "highly proffesional HS scene (with 4 same decks as in ladder, with only diffrence that they ban warrior each time. such variety, much skill, wow)
Why they can ban decks and we don't? That is bullshit, I will like very much if this option to ban a class in ladder and you never paired with it.
I think they should remove the nerf and move him to the Hall of Fame. I love the RNG and its fun to win or lose on the spot because of Yogg. I personally enjoy having my opponent play Yogg and seeing what happens, even it results in a loss for me. Fun is way more important than winning to me, and I think we need more of that in Hearthstone.
The issue wasn't just that Yogg was seeing play in the competitive scene. It was that he was showing up far too frequently, and doing so in a large variety of decks. It's the same reason that Blizzard identified Ragnaros as an issue: Everyone was running him. That's no longer the case with Yogg. As you have pointed out, only Jade Druid is deciding to run him at the competitive level, and when you consider how inconsistent the jade deck can run, it starts to make more sense. Yogg still isn't bad as a tech card. Blizzard just wanted to address the issue of him being an auto-include, which they did.
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Working on updating my deck gallery and making it public. Some decks are not current. Net deck at your own risk.
What a great question. Yogg is frankly being used as a Hail Mary when it seems like it's not possible to win. The problem with figuring out how to nerf him yet again lies in a series of assumptions about how to diagnose his efficacy.
If we assume evenly skilled players, yogg feels bad if one player wins from behind. Similarly, yogg feels bad if one player loses from ahead. This is a lose-lose situation for Yogg.
If we assumed lopsided skill levels, yogg feels bad if the player with less skill level wins from behind. Similarly, yogg feels bad if the higher skill level player loses from ahead. Conversely, we feel bad for the lower skill level player playing yogg from ahead and losing. Similarly, we feel bad for the higher skill level player playing yogg from behind and winning.
While I think there are more assumptive situations to consider, overall I cannot find a situation in which a yogg play awards the player with the most skill. But this leads to another tough question for Team 5; how do you create a game which rewards skillful players and rewards casual players? The answer rears in as RNG. Everyone loves to play their Hail Mary / trump card and make a comeback victory, but this means we are rewarding what a lot of folks like least in a card game; RNG.
Ultimately, if we nerfed yogg yet again it loses its flavor and interest. It will best serve high level competition and hurt the causal player wanting to have a great time and giggle. The best solution, in my opinion, is a ban list. Simply ban yogg from tournaments. Leave him to the streamers of the world and let his legacy be told from afar and via trolden.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Move him to the Hall of Fame unnerfed. Let all the idiots who want to win through no reason other than this card was in their deck go with him. I don't hate him in his current form too much. I hate him everytime he successfully breaks the game though. Happy to see everyone running Yogg in HTC lose.
I know this isn't completely relevant, but does anybody think that Yogg's and N'zoth's effects should be switched? I mean Yogg even opens with "Bow down before the god of death" and N'zoth is the one that resurrects tons of deathrattle minions? Meanwhile N'zoth is the mysterious Old God who hasn't even shown up in the lore yet; wouldn't it make sense for him to have the batshit crazy magical effect?
Furthermore, with Yogg's nerf (which was perfect btw), if we switch, N'zoth's more defensive statline would make him a bit nicer for his ongoing effect as opposed to Yogg, who would survive his battlecry, even summoning deathrattle taunt minions to protect himself. The switch would be better on so many levels.
As for the main prompt, I don't think a nerf is necessary. He sees play in one deck as an unreliable board clear. Yogg wasn't originally nerfed because of his randomness, in fact I thought he was nerfed because of his consistency. Specifically his consistently massive swing. He could be trusted to draw cards, clear the board, and would frequently play secrets, heal or summon minions for you. He was too good, not too random. So I don't think the fact that we see him competitively is a problem, now that his nerf makes him much less consistent.
So the last time Yogg-Saron, Hope's End got nerfed, Blizzard explained they never intended for Yogg to be a competitive card, but more of a fun card. They didn't want Yogg to end up in tournaments or high legend ladder. And I think we can all collectively agree it was lame to lose or win games because of the pure randomness that Yogg brought along.
Now after the nerf Yogg has returned once more. He's very popular in jade druid right now, versions of which ended up in top 10 legend ladder and he was even brought to the tournament which Blizzard wanted to avoid.
Ofcourse, if Blizzard wants to address this issue once more it's logical for them to wait until the Un'Goro meta has settled, to see if he's still strong after that. As it is though, I definitely think Yogg should be nerfed again. I personally hate him because he can ruin competitive games.
What do you think? Should Yogg be nerfed? Why/why not? And if he needs to be nerfed, how? I added a poll but you can clarify your answer in the comments if you want to.
Fuck cubelock
Heck no. The last time a card got nerfed twice, it was Warsong Commander-and nobody wants anything close to a repeat of what happened to Warsong Commander. Yogg already became enough of a generally unreliable and situational card after they edited his Battlecry-if the Jade junkies are abusing him again, that's most likely just because of the current state of the game and what's making cards viable. Besides, it's not like Yogg has a lot of power against the Pirate Warriors.
I don't think Yogg is an issue at this point. Nerfs I'd like to see made right now are to remove the pirate tag from N'Zoth's First Mate and for wild change Ship's Cannon to say "Whenever you PLAY a pirate, deal 2 damage to a random enemy." Right now the First Mate into Patches is too much tempo, basically being a better muster for Battle at two less mana, and when Ship's cannon gets two pings off of one card it can be game ending.
A 10 manas card can easy kill yourself and do nothing is a problem in a meta with aggro decks killing you in turn 5?
They should just move yogg to wild now, like they are with some classic cards.
IMO that's what they should do with all problematic cards going forward. instead of nerfing them just move them to wild early.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
I think they should remove the nerf and move him to the Hall of Fame. I love the RNG and its fun to win or lose on the spot because of Yogg. I personally enjoy having my opponent play Yogg and seeing what happens, even it results in a loss for me. Fun is way more important than winning to me, and I think we need more of that in Hearthstone.
The issue wasn't just that Yogg was seeing play in the competitive scene. It was that he was showing up far too frequently, and doing so in a large variety of decks. It's the same reason that Blizzard identified Ragnaros as an issue: Everyone was running him. That's no longer the case with Yogg. As you have pointed out, only Jade Druid is deciding to run him at the competitive level, and when you consider how inconsistent the jade deck can run, it starts to make more sense. Yogg still isn't bad as a tech card. Blizzard just wanted to address the issue of him being an auto-include, which they did.
Working on updating my deck gallery and making it public. Some decks are not current. Net deck at your own risk.
What a great question. Yogg is frankly being used as a Hail Mary when it seems like it's not possible to win. The problem with figuring out how to nerf him yet again lies in a series of assumptions about how to diagnose his efficacy.
If we assume evenly skilled players, yogg feels bad if one player wins from behind. Similarly, yogg feels bad if one player loses from ahead. This is a lose-lose situation for Yogg.
If we assumed lopsided skill levels, yogg feels bad if the player with less skill level wins from behind. Similarly, yogg feels bad if the higher skill level player loses from ahead. Conversely, we feel bad for the lower skill level player playing yogg from ahead and losing. Similarly, we feel bad for the higher skill level player playing yogg from behind and winning.
While I think there are more assumptive situations to consider, overall I cannot find a situation in which a yogg play awards the player with the most skill. But this leads to another tough question for Team 5; how do you create a game which rewards skillful players and rewards casual players? The answer rears in as RNG. Everyone loves to play their Hail Mary / trump card and make a comeback victory, but this means we are rewarding what a lot of folks like least in a card game; RNG.
Ultimately, if we nerfed yogg yet again it loses its flavor and interest. It will best serve high level competition and hurt the causal player wanting to have a great time and giggle. The best solution, in my opinion, is a ban list. Simply ban yogg from tournaments. Leave him to the streamers of the world and let his legacy be told from afar and via trolden.
should be buffed to the way it was and just banned from tournaments.
Bring old Yogg to Wild. Yesssss
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I think you should add an option to the poll to change yogg back to the beauty that he was. Because your poll doesn't have this, it is biased.
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Evolve C'thun: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/743008-evolve-cthun
Evolve Jade: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/753851-evolve-jade
Evolve Elemental: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/813707-evolve-elemental
Move him to the Hall of Fame unnerfed. Let all the idiots who want to win through no reason other than this card was in their deck go with him. I don't hate him in his current form too much. I hate him everytime he successfully breaks the game though. Happy to see everyone running Yogg in HTC lose.
Unerfed, in hall of fame.
Sounds like someone is a little salty. Leave Yogg alone now, kiddos.
I know this isn't completely relevant, but does anybody think that Yogg's and N'zoth's effects should be switched? I mean Yogg even opens with "Bow down before the god of death" and N'zoth is the one that resurrects tons of deathrattle minions? Meanwhile N'zoth is the mysterious Old God who hasn't even shown up in the lore yet; wouldn't it make sense for him to have the batshit crazy magical effect?
Furthermore, with Yogg's nerf (which was perfect btw), if we switch, N'zoth's more defensive statline would make him a bit nicer for his ongoing effect as opposed to Yogg, who would survive his battlecry, even summoning deathrattle taunt minions to protect himself. The switch would be better on so many levels.
As for the main prompt, I don't think a nerf is necessary. He sees play in one deck as an unreliable board clear. Yogg wasn't originally nerfed because of his randomness, in fact I thought he was nerfed because of his consistency. Specifically his consistently massive swing. He could be trusted to draw cards, clear the board, and would frequently play secrets, heal or summon minions for you. He was too good, not too random. So I don't think the fact that we see him competitively is a problem, now that his nerf makes him much less consistent.
Yogg is the only card in Hearthstone with an actual personality. Leave him alone, or he'll make all your decks lose.
Working on updating my deck gallery and making it public. Some decks are not current. Net deck at your own risk.
Unnerf him, leave him in Standard.
Yogg should be re-buffed. He is a useful tool in certain decks, he's not taking over the meta or anything.
don't take yogg away from me, even though i don't own one. XD