Gonna go over the standard changes (I don't play Wild so I can't really comment there).
Kael'thas Sunstrider: I honestly expected more of a nerf here. I will admit that going from 6 mana to 7 is likely more significant than it seems at first glance, but it ultimately doesn't change his effectiveness. We'll still be seeing Twin Slice into Inner Demon shenanigans. A nerf was definitely warranted and this is certainly a small step towards bringing him in line, I'm just unsure if it'll be enough. However, I've learned not to underestimate mana cost nerfs, even if it's just 1 extra mana.
Bad Luck Albatross: I feel this is more of a nerf than Kael'Thas. For most decks, I think it may be enough to no longer warrant a spot. However, I think Res Priest will still run it. Res priest is built around playing slower, higher cost minions and 4 cost is still lower than most minions in the deck, leaving the 4 cost minion slot at now Albatross and Bone Wraith. Not being able to bring it out a turn earlier will definitely hurt and does make the deck slightly weaker as a whole, but once it's dead, it's cost is irrelevant because of resurrecting.
Frenzied Felwing: A very significant nerf. It's amazing how much easier it is to deal with a 2 health minion over a 3 health one in the current meta (in standard). All the popular priest aoe's now outright kill it, which is huge. 2 attack minions now trade with it. In a nutshell, 2 health is now the new breakpoint for easy(ish) removal and bringing him down to that makes Frenzied Felwing far more vulnerable. And while I suspect he'll still see play, because a 0 mana 3/2 is still nuts, he won't be nearly as oppressive. Good nerf.
Altruis the Outcast: I'm a bit confused by this change. Yes, the cost went up by 1 and that's pretty significant but the attack also went up by one and as others have already pointed out, makes it less vulnerable to priest. Definitely still a nerf overall though and even though it can no longer be targeted by Shadow Word: Pain, it can still be easily removed by any class, including priest. The way I'm viewing this nerf is the DH might get one less activation on average because that 1 mana is being fronted by his cost now. Is that enough of a nerf? Maybe. It's still obviously a very good card either way. We'll still be seeing this card is every DH deck I think and instead of hitting your board and face for 5+ on average, it'll probably be 4+ on average.
Battlefiend: What this card should have been from day 1. No clue wtf the dev team was thinking, releasing a 1 mana 2/2 with a crazy good upside and thinking that was balanced. Good nerf and will still see play. (Though Blizzard has a reputation for intentionally releasing brand new content over-tuned to increase initial sales, then later bringing things in line once things have gone live).
Glaivebound Adept: Goes from a 7/4 to a 6/4. Not a significant nerf and will still be used exactly as it is now with no noticeable difference. IMO, the wrong aspect of the card was nerfed and the fact it was a 7/4, while threatening, was never the real issue. It was the incredibly powerful battlecry. Seems pointless and I don't think anything will change in regards to this card.
Sacrificial Pact: We all saw this coming, no surprise here. It may still be run in Galakrond Warlock decks for super cheap, easy healing but Warlocks are taking a massive hit here. This one card was one of the few things keeping DH's in check and not just for warlocks but Highlander decks as well. I feel this one change will skyrocket DH power and affect the meta more than any of the DH nerfs here. DH just got better against a large percentage of the currently played meta decks.
Libram of Justice: Solid buff that will certainly help Libram Paladin specifically. Not a major change for the class overall but a 1 mana discount, much like 1 mana nerfs, are not to be underestimated. I think this is a more powerful change than people give it credit for.
Kael'thas Sunstrider is put in check by these nerfs, you all just have no idea how drastic a cost increase is. It is the hardest way to nerf a card without reworking it completly.
Bad Luck Albatross is dead. No one pays 4 Mana for a 4/3 do nothing immediately. People didn't even realize, but in their comment, Blizzard was mocking the people that played BLA "If you want to win games, you don't put BLA in your deck". Essentially, they criticized the people for playing a card that just feels good, but isn't even that strong. They didn't speak it out, but they did infer here that many Hearthstone players are not really on the bright side...They just killed the card so that people stop crying.
Frenzied Felwing is weaker now but it's still free tempo. Free cards are always strong, see Corridor Creeper, who continued to see play in Odd Paladin despite its nerf.
Altruis the Outcast is dead. Mana cost increases are the hardest way to hit a card, but unlikely Kael, Altruis ability isn't that busted.
Battlefiend is now a fine Standard card, but for Wild the card is dead.
Glaivebound Adept, not much will change here. The card isn't that strong anyways. Comparable to Blackwing Corruptor, which never broke the game. 5 Mana 5/4 deal 3 was fine, but 6 Mana 7/4 deal 4(+1) was considered broken????? Okay......
Sacrificial Pact is great. The card is kept for WIld, but no longer limiting design space for Standard.
BloodbloomOnly a temporary fix. It limits design space for Warlock a lot. They can never print a high value 10-Cost spell for Warlock like UI is for Druids. Otherwise they are going to cast this on turn 4....Cost should have been at least 5 Mana.
Open the WaygateAhhh...Ummm.....Blizz you targeted the wrong deck. This nerf hits Reno Quest Mage, which is a Top Tier deck, but still leagues below the actual Quest Mage who can stil easily complete the Quest due to Cyclones and Evokation. Should have been 10 Spells, considering the Spells you generate are mostly 0-3 Mana, that's still not that much.
Kael'thas Sunstrider is put in check by these nerfs, you all just have no idea how drastic a cost increase is. It is the hardest way to nerf a card without reworking it completly.
Bad Luck Albatross is dead. No one pays 4 Mana for a 4/3 do nothing immediately. People didn't even realize, but in their comment, Blizzard was mocking the people that played BLA "If you want to win games, you don't put BLA in your deck". Essentially, they criticized the people for playing a card that just feels good, but isn't even that strong. They didn't speak it out, but they did infer here that many Hearthstone players are not really on the bright side...They just killed the card so that people stop crying.
Frenzied Felwing is weaker now but it's still free tempo. Free cards are always strong, see Corridor Creeper, who continued to see play in Odd Paladin despite its nerf.
Altruis the Outcast is dead. Mana cost increases are the hardest way to hit a card, but unlikely Kael, Altruis ability isn't that busted.
Battlefiend is now a fine Standard card, but for Wild the card is dead.
Glaivebound Adept, not much will change here. The card isn't that strong anyways. Comparable to Blackwing Corruptor, which never broke the game. 5 Mana 5/4 deal 3 was fine, but 6 Mana 7/4 deal 4(+1) was considered broken????? Okay......
Sacrificial Pact is great. The card is kept for WIld, but no longer limiting design space for Standard.
BloodbloomOnly a temporary fix. It limits design space for Warlock a lot. They can never print a high value 10-Cost spell for Warlock like UI is for Druids. Otherwise they are going to cast this on turn 4....Cost should have been at least 5 Mana.
Open the WaygateAhhh...Ummm.....Blizz you targeted the wrong deck. This nerf hits Reno Quest Mage, which is a Top Tier deck, but still leagues below the actual Quest Mage who can stil easily complete the Quest due to Cyclones and Evokation. Should have been 10 Spells, considering the Spells you generate are mostly 0-3 Mana, that's still not that much.
Agree with most, but you're crazy if you think a bump in mana cost to altruis kills him. He's still going to do altruis things as long a skull of guldan is discounting stuff.
The Mage's Quest nerf is a joke. The problem wasn't with how fast they can complete the quest (though i guess with how much spells they can generate is annoying), it was with the stupid reward they get. Why couldn't they made it so the reward costs 7 or at least 6 mana, so it would be harder to pull off with Vargoth.
yeah, they will likely complete on the same turn 4-6 they completed before, as long as they have an apprentice out they can just go into recursion on the small spells, hardly makes a difference. I guess you will see more bad outs. I had pretty much stopped playing wild due to that deck, after playing around 100 games against it in the last week, I am not encouraged to go back and do some more.
Maybe that delay is what aggro needed to reign it in, I dunno. Hopefully they tested it, but from their recent balance efforts I don't think testing is really their strong suit.
This completely killed Baku DH! All the big swing cards are now even except priestess. This will barely effect quest mage. Mecha'thun lock becomes more difficult but not dead witch is good. Kaelthas nerf and paladin buff don't think will make any difference.
These seem very tame, atleast the battlefiend nerf is significant. Waygate nerf on the face of it seems useless.
DH got a buff with sac pact nerf overall...heavy midrange demonhunter will be a thing now for sure..I guess that could be fun.
It is not useless, it just hits the wrong deck. There were two versions of Quest Mage:
1. Combo, this is the oppresive deck that plays Waygate on curve alongside 4 8/8 Giants, GG
2. Control, this Highlander Deck was more of a grinder style deck. You controlled the game, only slowly progressing your quest via Zephrys and Kazakus and stuff, then when you are in a favorable position, you play Vargoth+Time Warp and 2 Giants. This deck took much longer to complete the Quest, so long that some classes (Druid) could even survive the two extra turns, while others (Darkest Hour Warlock) just won before you. It was also a very strong deck but nowwhere near as broken as Quest Mage.
Quest Mage can still complete the Quest just easily, but for Reno Quest Mage, +2 Spells are a lot as the deck can't build a big cyclone.
Libram of Justice: Solid buff that will certainly help Libram Paladin specifically. Not a major change for the class overall but a 1 mana discount, much like 1 mana nerfs, are not to be underestimated. I think this is a more powerful change than people give it credit for.
Now this card will be a stable in every paladin deck, not the Libram one, cost just 1 more than Equality, don't affect your minions and give you a tool to remove a least one of them.
The only missing piece for a good control paladin be possible is revert the insane nerf in Equality.
All in all it's better than nothing I guess but I would have made Kael's effect that your third spell played each turn costs 0. Also I think it's pretty obvious that Time Warp was the problem, not Open the Waygate.
The nerfs were really good except for sac pact. The card is now an anti draw of 1 a loss of a 1/1 and the reward is only 5 health. Warlock got hit hard because they dont have really good replacement options for sac pact or albatross. Sac pacs health shouldve been increased to 7 or 8.
Aggro DH got nerfed, but with the sac pac nerf youll see more DHs on the ladder and more decks that counter DH that are not warlock. There should be fewer OTK DHs but more mid range DHs with Priestess
The albatross nerf hurts warlock more than rez priest. Rez priest might still run albatross, and with the battlefiend nerf rez priest should see an uptick in play, which will lead to an uptick for rogue.
i usually welcome mana nerf because it still lower card power but also keep it see play but with Kealthas that not big deal, druid already reach 7 mana when use him and DH also dont card about mana because they just kill you (mabe at least Kayn cant be play in same turn now)
Same with Altruis, he should not hit face or at least undirect nerf Twin Slice
Let's say he plays Antaen on turn 6 into Priestess on 7. How can Warlock deal with them? Not by trade, because at this point he most likely has no board (Priestess can wipe but also DH himself is very good at removing stuff). He can use removal like Siphon Soul or Keli'dan the Breaker but that's 6 mana and there's no room for any additional pro-active play to gain even tiny bit of tempo. Next turn Antaen wakes up, Warlock takes Pyroblast to face (maybe 3 damage less if Keli'dan soak some) and has to deal with 10/6 on board... On top of that DH can follow up with another copy of those or just build more board and get even more tempo...
If he plays Priestess on 5 (due to cost reduced by Raging Felscreamer) Warlock has NO ANSWER to that and it's guaranteed damage to face.
All in all it's better than nothing I guess but I would have made Kael's effect that your third spell played each turn costs 0. Also I think it's pretty obvious that Time Warp was the problem, not Open the Waygate.
Time Warp itself can't be fixed. The alternative would be to remove the card altogether and replace it with another.
But I honestly think Time Warp is fine. Wild is supposed to be busted, after all. However, Time Warp anywhere before or at Turn 6 is broken and should not be allowed.
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Gonna go over the standard changes (I don't play Wild so I can't really comment there).
Kael'thas Sunstrider: I honestly expected more of a nerf here. I will admit that going from 6 mana to 7 is likely more significant than it seems at first glance, but it ultimately doesn't change his effectiveness. We'll still be seeing Twin Slice into Inner Demon shenanigans. A nerf was definitely warranted and this is certainly a small step towards bringing him in line, I'm just unsure if it'll be enough. However, I've learned not to underestimate mana cost nerfs, even if it's just 1 extra mana.
Bad Luck Albatross: I feel this is more of a nerf than Kael'Thas. For most decks, I think it may be enough to no longer warrant a spot. However, I think Res Priest will still run it. Res priest is built around playing slower, higher cost minions and 4 cost is still lower than most minions in the deck, leaving the 4 cost minion slot at now Albatross and Bone Wraith. Not being able to bring it out a turn earlier will definitely hurt and does make the deck slightly weaker as a whole, but once it's dead, it's cost is irrelevant because of resurrecting.
Frenzied Felwing: A very significant nerf. It's amazing how much easier it is to deal with a 2 health minion over a 3 health one in the current meta (in standard). All the popular priest aoe's now outright kill it, which is huge. 2 attack minions now trade with it. In a nutshell, 2 health is now the new breakpoint for easy(ish) removal and bringing him down to that makes Frenzied Felwing far more vulnerable. And while I suspect he'll still see play, because a 0 mana 3/2 is still nuts, he won't be nearly as oppressive. Good nerf.
Altruis the Outcast: I'm a bit confused by this change. Yes, the cost went up by 1 and that's pretty significant but the attack also went up by one and as others have already pointed out, makes it less vulnerable to priest. Definitely still a nerf overall though and even though it can no longer be targeted by Shadow Word: Pain, it can still be easily removed by any class, including priest. The way I'm viewing this nerf is the DH might get one less activation on average because that 1 mana is being fronted by his cost now. Is that enough of a nerf? Maybe. It's still obviously a very good card either way. We'll still be seeing this card is every DH deck I think and instead of hitting your board and face for 5+ on average, it'll probably be 4+ on average.
Battlefiend: What this card should have been from day 1. No clue wtf the dev team was thinking, releasing a 1 mana 2/2 with a crazy good upside and thinking that was balanced. Good nerf and will still see play. (Though Blizzard has a reputation for intentionally releasing brand new content over-tuned to increase initial sales, then later bringing things in line once things have gone live).
Glaivebound Adept: Goes from a 7/4 to a 6/4. Not a significant nerf and will still be used exactly as it is now with no noticeable difference. IMO, the wrong aspect of the card was nerfed and the fact it was a 7/4, while threatening, was never the real issue. It was the incredibly powerful battlecry. Seems pointless and I don't think anything will change in regards to this card.
Sacrificial Pact: We all saw this coming, no surprise here. It may still be run in Galakrond Warlock decks for super cheap, easy healing but Warlocks are taking a massive hit here. This one card was one of the few things keeping DH's in check and not just for warlocks but Highlander decks as well. I feel this one change will skyrocket DH power and affect the meta more than any of the DH nerfs here. DH just got better against a large percentage of the currently played meta decks.
Libram of Justice: Solid buff that will certainly help Libram Paladin specifically. Not a major change for the class overall but a 1 mana discount, much like 1 mana nerfs, are not to be underestimated. I think this is a more powerful change than people give it credit for.
Just wondering why do you need to create a separate thread for this when it is on the front page and we can all discuss it there?
Joke nerfs as usual, nothing new.
You're right over nerfing stuff like they did to galakrond shaman so it can never be played again is a better alternative.
Kael'thas Sunstrider is put in check by these nerfs, you all just have no idea how drastic a cost increase is. It is the hardest way to nerf a card without reworking it completly.
Bad Luck Albatross is dead. No one pays 4 Mana for a 4/3 do nothing immediately. People didn't even realize, but in their comment, Blizzard was mocking the people that played BLA "If you want to win games, you don't put BLA in your deck". Essentially, they criticized the people for playing a card that just feels good, but isn't even that strong. They didn't speak it out, but they did infer here that many Hearthstone players are not really on the bright side...They just killed the card so that people stop crying.
Frenzied Felwing is weaker now but it's still free tempo. Free cards are always strong, see Corridor Creeper, who continued to see play in Odd Paladin despite its nerf.
Altruis the Outcast is dead. Mana cost increases are the hardest way to hit a card, but unlikely Kael, Altruis ability isn't that busted.
Battlefiend is now a fine Standard card, but for Wild the card is dead.
Glaivebound Adept, not much will change here. The card isn't that strong anyways. Comparable to Blackwing Corruptor, which never broke the game. 5 Mana 5/4 deal 3 was fine, but 6 Mana 7/4 deal 4(+1) was considered broken????? Okay......
Sacrificial Pact is great. The card is kept for WIld, but no longer limiting design space for Standard.
Libram of Justice The card is very strong now.
BloodbloomOnly a temporary fix. It limits design space for Warlock a lot. They can never print a high value 10-Cost spell for Warlock like UI is for Druids. Otherwise they are going to cast this on turn 4....Cost should have been at least 5 Mana.
Open the WaygateAhhh...Ummm.....Blizz you targeted the wrong deck. This nerf hits Reno Quest Mage, which is a Top Tier deck, but still leagues below the actual Quest Mage who can stil easily complete the Quest due to Cyclones and Evokation. Should have been 10 Spells, considering the Spells you generate are mostly 0-3 Mana, that's still not that much.
Agree with most, but you're crazy if you think a bump in mana cost to altruis kills him. He's still going to do altruis things as long a skull of guldan is discounting stuff.
Glaivebound Adept is now safe from Big Game Hunter PogChamp
These seem very tame, atleast the battlefiend nerf is significant. Waygate nerf on the face of it seems useless.
DH got a buff with sac pact nerf overall...heavy midrange demonhunter will be a thing now for sure..I guess that could be fun.
yeah, they will likely complete on the same turn 4-6 they completed before, as long as they have an apprentice out they can just go into recursion on the small spells, hardly makes a difference. I guess you will see more bad outs. I had pretty much stopped playing wild due to that deck, after playing around 100 games against it in the last week, I am not encouraged to go back and do some more.
Maybe that delay is what aggro needed to reign it in, I dunno. Hopefully they tested it, but from their recent balance efforts I don't think testing is really their strong suit.
lol glaivebound is a buff, now BGH can't get him.
This completely killed Baku DH! All the big swing cards are now even except priestess. This will barely effect quest mage. Mecha'thun lock becomes more difficult but not dead witch is good. Kaelthas nerf and paladin buff don't think will make any difference.
It is not useless, it just hits the wrong deck. There were two versions of Quest Mage:
1. Combo, this is the oppresive deck that plays Waygate on curve alongside 4 8/8 Giants, GG
2. Control, this Highlander Deck was more of a grinder style deck. You controlled the game, only slowly progressing your quest via Zephrys and Kazakus and stuff, then when you are in a favorable position, you play Vargoth+Time Warp and 2 Giants. This deck took much longer to complete the Quest, so long that some classes (Druid) could even survive the two extra turns, while others (Darkest Hour Warlock) just won before you. It was also a very strong deck but nowwhere near as broken as Quest Mage.
Quest Mage can still complete the Quest just easily, but for Reno Quest Mage, +2 Spells are a lot as the deck can't build a big cyclone.
Now this card will be a stable in every paladin deck, not the Libram one, cost just 1 more than Equality, don't affect your minions and give you a tool to remove a least one of them.
The only missing piece for a good control paladin be possible is revert the insane nerf in Equality.
All in all it's better than nothing I guess but I would have made Kael's effect that your third spell played each turn costs 0. Also I think it's pretty obvious that Time Warp was the problem, not Open the Waygate.
The nerfs were really good except for sac pact. The card is now an anti draw of 1 a loss of a 1/1 and the reward is only 5 health. Warlock got hit hard because they dont have really good replacement options for sac pact or albatross. Sac pacs health shouldve been increased to 7 or 8.
Aggro DH got nerfed, but with the sac pac nerf youll see more DHs on the ladder and more decks that counter DH that are not warlock. There should be fewer OTK DHs but more mid range DHs with Priestess
The albatross nerf hurts warlock more than rez priest. Rez priest might still run albatross, and with the battlefiend nerf rez priest should see an uptick in play, which will lead to an uptick for rogue.
i usually welcome mana nerf because it still lower card power but also keep it see play but with Kealthas that not big deal, druid already reach 7 mana when use him and DH also dont card about mana because they just kill you (mabe at least Kayn cant be play in same turn now)
Same with Altruis, he should not hit face or at least undirect nerf Twin Slice
All other nerf looks good to me
The Altruis change to 4 mana is not going to be enough. That card is so oppressive.
Hi
It's "funny" how they nerfed SacPact but left Priestess of Fury and Imprisoned Antaen unchanged. Now when DH plays them (especially with reduced cost by Raging Felscreamer or Skull of Gul'dan) Galakrond Warlock can just concede.
Let's say he plays Antaen on turn 6 into Priestess on 7. How can Warlock deal with them? Not by trade, because at this point he most likely has no board (Priestess can wipe but also DH himself is very good at removing stuff). He can use removal like Siphon Soul or Keli'dan the Breaker but that's 6 mana and there's no room for any additional pro-active play to gain even tiny bit of tempo. Next turn Antaen wakes up, Warlock takes Pyroblast to face (maybe 3 damage less if Keli'dan soak some) and has to deal with 10/6 on board... On top of that DH can follow up with another copy of those or just build more board and get even more tempo...
If he plays Priestess on 5 (due to cost reduced by Raging Felscreamer) Warlock has NO ANSWER to that and it's guaranteed damage to face.
That's fair for sure and not OP at all...
Time Warp itself can't be fixed. The alternative would be to remove the card altogether and replace it with another.
But I honestly think Time Warp is fine. Wild is supposed to be busted, after all. However, Time Warp anywhere before or at Turn 6 is broken and should not be allowed.